Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=geel9;51249310]Of course they did. They fucking [b]told everyone[/b] EXACTLY what to expect.[/QUOTE] I expected a rehash of last year. We almost did get that, except for the clusterfrack that is merasmissions, and our first exposure to contracts in a post quickplay, "casual" MyM world. Nobody really knew what to expect with Contracts in a MyM world because we never had any before this... the last contracts was Tough Break back in December last year, months before MyM came out. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=AD/HD;51251358] you can craft unusual taunts?!?! [url]http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198087356733[/url][/QUOTE] It's probably "crafting" when you apply the unusualer to the taunt.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51251473]I don't trust people to give honest criticism against something they make a buck off of. We've tried being constructive with valve, they don't give 1 billionth of a shit unless people are pissed, and even then they're silent. Every year we go over this shit "well maybe the next update will be good since this one was lacking" but it never does. It's hard not being pessimistic when the big update [B][U][I]THE UPDATE[/I][/U][/B] to save TF2, MYM, the one so much time, effort, and beta testing went into was complete and utter trash. I really like how everyone is all like "no it'll be fine, they'll get their act together soon" like valve is some fucking loser druggy college dropout who will make a miraculous 180 turnaround and be everything we've ever wanted even though all signs point to this type of lazy and careless behavior continuing into the distant future and all the folks will say "but, they're working on stuff" Yeah cool, VR, I'm so bloody amazed, the equivalent of Avatar, a vapid unthought-out tech demo that will wow you for an hour and then make you nauseous. I have no reason to believe the London size amount of info Valve has been given regarding the pyro and the mechanics that need retooling will even be heeded. Well shit that playercount sure alleviates my fear that TF2 has any balance and optimization issues.[/QUOTE] I still don't see how my position as a contributor makes my criticism any less honest, to think that is just poor and isn't going to get you anywhere in the world. The fact that I receive royalties for my work doesn't mean I'm paid to blindly speak positively for them the rest of my life. I've already said that there can be a handful of improvements, TF2 can be better, but going about it in such a hostile and negative way isn't going to get you what you want. You have to be willing to compromise and see things from all perspectives, and work with others to achieve a reachable goal. Valve as a whole may be a large developer, but TF2's team is very small, and I can very much assure you that none of that team was pulled away to work on VR as much as you seem to think. The Vive isn't a demon, and Valve knows its an early establishment so they don't just let the whole staff go work on it constantly. There are balance and optimization issues, yes, people can agree on that. But you have to make a valiant, patient effort to make sure the positive changes to fix those can be made. Ultimately, Valve isn't a faceless entity - they are people that work day in and day out on this game for you to play. They even came into work over the weekend to fix issues with it. Was it perhaps bad that those issues existed in the first place? Sure. But they fixed them. Mistakes happen, bugs happen, and issues are still prevalent. One weekend bug fix doesn't resolve all the issues one may have with the game, this much can be said for sure, but with proper constructive feedback and patient efforts, you can take the steps towards the change you want to see in TF2 and Valve as a whole.

[QUOTE=GetGrenade;51251412][img]http://puu.sh/rTxMO/99aa0e1e32.png[/img] It's doing pretty fine. As for MYM being bad - it made some of my friends (who played tf2 long time ago but then quit) came back to play competitive, so it's not that bad?[/QUOTE] TF2's numbers are still relatively healthy, but they've been on a steady decline for a while, and the changes brought from MYM took a huge toll on the player count. Some people came back for comp, but a lot of people also left because casual play has been worsened by the new matchmaking system.

Okay, so I've only gotten one contract, but I saw somebody mention that they had four. So: Rate this post based on how many contracts you've gotten from halloween 2016. 0: [IMG]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/tick.png[/IMG] 1: [IMG]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/cross.png[/IMG] 2: [IMG]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/funny2.png[/IMG] 3:[IMG]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/winner.png[/IMG]... And so on.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51251226]You don't understand, they're "working on something." Like [I][B]last [/B][/I]Halloween when they slacked off with the promise of quality, polished content they said they were slaving over. Which turned out to me MyM. Which sucked.[/QUOTE] I generally understand and [i]somewhat[/i] agree with your anger at Valve, but last year Halloween was given to the community for Tough Break, which I thought was actually pretty enjoyable. Additionally, last Halloween was actually really good, with a great map selection (Sinshine and Moonshine being the stars), a hilarious new comic, and an update that added new cosmetics and [I]actually worked.[/I] If this year was Halloween 2015 pt 2, I'd have no complaints. Instead, we get only 3 maps, none of which are one of the two we all wanted (Slasher or Degroot Creep, according to the most popular Workshop Maps of the past month), one of which is just a normal map with a Halloween skin, sans any bosses/magic/whathaveyou (Maple Ridge Event). I do hear that Pit of Death and Brimstone are pretty fun to play, though. In addition to the abysmal map selection, most of the items this year are either non-Halloween related or from submissions years past. Many excellent item sets were submitted and ignored this year, and that's a goddamn shame. Finally, we get the laziest blog post (two people doing the "new" taunt on a transparent background), no update splash page, and no comic. Like, lots of love to the content creators who make this game what it is, but this update fucking sucks compared to literally any previous Scream Fortress event. It comes nowhere near meeting the bar set by last year, either, and if Valve had fucking communicated submission deadlines and put in a little more effort, it very easily could have. [QUOTE=GetGrenade;51251412][img]http://puu.sh/rTxMO/99aa0e1e32.png[/img] It's doing pretty fine. [/QUOTE] Not quite, actually. [URL="https://steamdb.info/app/440/graphs/"]We've been in a decline for some months since MyM- we were third most-played for quite some time, and used to have 50k~ people playing at any given time. This peak is also nothing compared to the peak that we got last TF2 Halloween update, where we peaked in the high 90 thousands[/URL]. It's a slow, steady decline, but it still is a decline. [B]Which is bad[/B], considering our goal should be to see TF2 grow through new, better content updates and a lively competitive scene. [B]Finally, a bit toward Geel, Sedi and Void:[/B] You guys are pretty cool. I genuinely appreciate how much you three have contributed to the community in the ways that you have. However, at least two of you share a privilege that the rest of the people in this thread don't have: having actually spoken to the people in charge of this game and what its future could be. The two of you who are content creators have also enjoyed a paycheck and, I'd imagine, at least some direct communication with the TF Team. Whether you realize it or not, you guys are being defensive of the TF Team because you have a perspective that the rest of us simply don't have. What I'd like you to consider is that the people spreading "hate" in this thread, such as Johnny Joe or Exor, are getting upset and frustrated for two valid reasons: * This update's launch was a buggy disaster with a significantly lower amount of content than previous years (which is an indisputable fact) * They genuinely love this game, just as you do, which is why it's so upsetting to them to see a decline in communication and quality. Remember, everyone here is here for the same reason: they care about TF2. MUS is all about finding out what the next big thing will be, and sharing that news as it leaks and breaks. It's also about discussing the upsides and downsides of the recent update, what we [i]want[/i] from the new one, and what we [i]don't[/i]. [B]Nobody here legitimately despises the TF Team[/B], but they [I]are[/I] angry. They're angry because they feel like the game is declining, they're angry because it feels like their voices aren't being heard and they might not be able to save what's likely one of their favorite games. Try to understand that.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51251620]I generally understand and [i]somewhat[/i] agree with your anger at Valve, but last year Halloween was given to the community for Tough Break, which I thought was actually pretty enjoyable. Additionally, last Halloween was actually really good, with a great map selection (Sinshine and Moonshine being the stars), a hilarious new comic, and an update that added new cosmetics and [I]actually worked.[/I] If this year was Halloween 2015 pt 2, I'd have no complaints. Instead, we get only 3 maps, none of which are one of the two we all wanted (Slasher or Degroot Creep, according to the most popular Workshop Maps of the past month), one of which is just a normal map with a Halloween skin, sans any bosses/magic/whathaveyou (Maple Ridge Event). I do hear that Pit of Death and Brimstone are pretty fun to play, though. In addition to the abysmal map selection, most of the items this year are either non-Halloween related or from submissions years past. Many excellent item sets were submitted and ignored this year, and that's a goddamn shame. Finally, we get the laziest blog post (two people doing the "new" taunt on a transparent background), no update splash page, and no comic. Like, lots of love to the content creators who make this game what it is, but this update fucking sucks compared to literally any previous Scream Fortress event. It comes nowhere near meeting the bar set by last year, either, and if Valve had fucking communicated submission deadlines and put in a little more effort, it very easily could have. Not quite, actually. [URL="https://steamdb.info/app/440/graphs/"]We've been in a decline for some months since MyM- we were third most-played for quite some time, and used to have 50k~ people playing at any given time. This peak is also nothing compared to the peak that we got last TF2 Halloween update, where we peaked in the high 90 thousands[/URL]. It's a slow, steady decline, but it still is a decline. [B]Which is bad[/B], considering our goal should be to see TF2 grow through new, better content updates and a lively competitive scene. [B]Finally, a bit toward Geel, Sedi and Void:[/B] You guys are pretty cool. I genuinely appreciate how much you three have contributed to the community in the ways that you have. However, at least two of you share a privilege that the rest of the people in this thread don't have: having actually spoken to the people in charge of this game and what its future could be. The two of you who are content creators have also enjoyed a paycheck and, I'd imagine, at least some direct communication with the TF Team. Whether you realize it or not, you guys are being defensive of the TF Team because you have a perspective that the rest of us simply don't have. What I'd like you to consider is that the people spreading "hate" in this thread, such as Johnny Joe or Exor, are getting upset and frustrated for two valid reasons: * This update's launch was a buggy disaster with a significantly lower amount of content than previous years (which is an indisputable fact) * They genuinely love this game, just as you do, which is why it's so upsetting to them to see a decline in communication and quality. Remember, everyone here is here for the same reason: they care about TF2. MUS is all about finding out what the next big thing will be, and sharing that news as it leaks and breaks. It's also about discussing the upsides and downsides of the recent update, what we [i]want[/i] from the new one, and what we [i]don't[/i]. [B]Nobody here legitimately despises the TF Team[/B], but they [I]are[/I] angry. They're angry because they feel like the game is declining, they're angry because it feels like their voices aren't being heard and they might not be able to save what's likely one of their favorite games. Try to understand that.[/QUOTE] Trust me, I do understand. The update left a lot to be desired. I haven't been defending Valve on everything they do, but I can see how one could see my position in the community and misinterpret my own thoughts on the way things are going. A lot has been left behind or set on the backburner in exchange for other implementations. I very much so acknowledge the strange "disaster" as you said of the last update, but I'd much rather focus on getting in touch with Valve to put things in place to not have it happen again. Despite making mistakes, Valve can learn from them, it just... takes some time, sometimes. Maybe a bit more time than it should, but things can be changed for the better, if taken on from a positively constructive stance. While hostility and frustration can get your points across, it can sometimes lead to expressing potential changes that would only affect things in the moment, rather than taking a step back to analyze things and see them for what they truly are and develop fixes and changes from there.

Coming from someone who is also a contributor, and has received paychecks from this game, I can tell you it's not nearly enough to live off of reasonably and cozy as someone from the outside might think (at least for a good, healthy chunk of us), and us having this privilege doesn't make us "defend" tf2 in its current state by any sense. Hearing from several community members from every outlet lately, we're all tired and a bit grumpy with where tf2 is heading. Maybe we're not expressing it in the right ways, so it might come off as us defending. Not all of us gets responses like you think, either. It's always been a 50/50 split, no matter if you're a contributor or not. The tf2 team gets a lot of e-mails on a daily basis, it's hard responding to every single one of them. I imagine there's a super huge influx with every bad update, too. That's something to also keep in mind. We're not telling people not to be angry. People can be angry all they want. I can wholeheartedly say I have been, too. There are reasons- a lot of good ones- for one [I]to[/I] be angry. Maybe I'm just hoping to see those that are angry be more proactive about it and let the tf2 team know. I think we all can agree something needs to be done about tf2's current state. Contributors, at the end of the day, also are people who absolutely enjoy tf2 like someone who just plays it when they feel the itch to- That's why we got into being contributors. I love this game with all my heart, but the tf2 team also really needs to change a lot of the wrongs they've been making, too. We [I]are[/I] upset, and want to see tf2 make a change for the better without a doubt. Those are just my two cents.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51251665]I'd much rather focus on getting in touch with Valve to put things in place to not have it happen again. Despite making mistakes, Valve can learn from them, it just... takes some time, sometimes. Maybe a bit more time than it should, but things can be changed for the better, if taken on from a positively constructive stance. While hostility and frustration can get your points across, it can sometimes lead to expressing potential changes that would only affect things in the moment, rather than taking a step back to analyze things and see them for what they truly are and develop fixes and changes from there.[/QUOTE] I wholeheartedly agree. My problem is just...people have been kind and constructive for years, now. The example that's most relevant to me is the problems with Competitive Mode, which, despite being arguably TF2's biggest addition, is the thing the TF Team is least willing to listen to the competitive community about. When Dota and CS got their Matchmaking, their rules didn't break everything their pre-established competitive scene had. Additionally, Valve gave them the financial backing they needed to skyrocket, CSGO especially. The problems with Competitive Mode are numerous, but obvious to anybody with competitive experience in this game. The biggest one, [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/50zy0y/the_real_problem_with_competitive_mode/"]which I wrote a piece on that remained on the front page of r/tf2 for quite some time[/URL], is the lack of class limits. All TF2 competitive formats have some form of class limits, and even Overwatch's dev team is smart enough to see why allowing 6 of the same hero in their competitive format is impossible to balance around and just not fun to play against. The only possible excuse for Valve's refusal to implement class limits and weapon bans is that they'd rather create a new meta of their own. This would be fine, if that new meta was enjoyable to play (it's not), if it were driving the game's growth (it isn't), and if people were playing Comp MM (they aren't). Competitive Mode is just worse TF2 right now- a smaller version of the game with penalties for the common pubber, and a bastardization of 6s that ignores all that format needs to work to a competitive player. [B]The TF Team does not have the time or the manpower to reinvent the wheel. They need to implement real 6s and start making changes based on that- what they're doing now simply is not working.[/B] But that's just the top of the barrel. For me, anyways, since I see Competitive TF2 as the only way to make this game grow to the height it truly deserves. There's plenty of others, of course. There's communicating the reasoning behind balance changes. There's properly testing updates or making a beta branch/beta servers so that people can do the testing for them. There's reaching out to key community members and content creators and letting them know what they need to do to get their content into the game, when it needs to be submitted, what they're looking for, etc. People are screaming right now because, so far, [B]the TF Team just doesn't seem to be listening.[/B] At this point, I'd literally pay a couple hundred dollars just to sit down with the TF Team and tell them everything I know about this game and what it needs to be better, what they need to do to make it right, and to have them actually listen. I love this game, genuinely, and I want it to have a future. We are in [i]desperate[/i] need of them listening to us so that can happen.

Gotta love an update so bad and poorly received it makes us attack [I]eachother.[/I] As somebody who'se contributed a lot of items and never had so much as a sidelong glance from Valve, I can 100% understand the frustrations behind a lot of the anger. But we're focusing on the wrong people, here. I honestly don't know what it would take to make Valve start giving half a shit about TF2 again, short of physically shaking them by the shoulders and screaming [B][I]"You are letting one of the most popular and lucrative game titles rot!!!"[/I][/B] at them point blank through five stacked megaphones. But us going after the lucky, talented few who have been successful in the past isn't it. And trust me, I've had my fair share of salt towards you "big name" creators myself. Heck, part of the reason I don't bother making Tf2 models anymore is because I know that they basically never introduce new content creators these days. (that and I'm just genuinely not very good at 3D modelling and prefer other media forms.) But at the end of the day, that problem is - like so many others - directly in the hands of Valve. I had hope when they started working on Matchmaking, and there are glimmers of light left, to be sure. I mean we do have two major class updates coming out, at least. But good god, the last few updates have been some of the worst handled I've ever seen. Valve's apparent disregard and lack of care for one of their most popular and established cash-cow games is absolutely baffling at best, and downright [I]disrespectful[/I] at worst. I don't think TF2 will "die" for a long time, given its free2play nature, but whether it remains worth playing in any serious fashion remains to be seen.

Using playercount as indicitive of quality is retarded. Most of those guys are probably AFK or idle bots.

[QUOTE=S'Arais;51251786]Using playercount as indicitive of quality is retarded. Most of those guys are probably AFK or idle bots.[/QUOTE] I dont know, Meet your Match made a good chunk of people quit the game. And those who haven't completely given up have been pretty disatisfied with everything. It wasn't Overwatch that caused the drop, it was the terrible quality of a long awaited update, and then they turn around and pull the SF bullshit again. I don't see valve turning this around any time soon

[QUOTE=S'Arais;51251786]Using playercount as indicitive of quality is retarded. Most of those guys are probably AFK or idle bots.[/QUOTE] Using that word is indicative of your own quality, sadly. While there are a handful of players in the grand scheme of things that are merely bots, that doesn't make up as large of a population as you may think. Despite Facepunch being one of the many large vocal communities alongside Reddit, SPUF, etc, there are plenty of players that don't take part in any of the online TF2 communities and just play the game and have fun. I can guarantee that there's a good amount that don't look too much into the patch notes of an update or read comics or anything of that sort. While all the communities are very vocal in the world of TF2, they hardly make up the entire playerbase, but that doesn't mean that bots reign supreme.

Again, you seem extremely defense-force/damage-control on the whole thing. We've gone over this sort of thing countless times with no improvement.

[QUOTE=S'Arais;51251831]Again, you seem extremely defense-force/damage-control on the whole thing...[/QUOTE] All I said was there aren't as many bots as you seem to think there are.

[QUOTE=GetGrenade;51251412]As for MYM being bad - it made some of my friends (who played tf2 long time ago but then quit) came back to play competitive, so it's not that bad?[/QUOTE] It made a lot of my friends play TF2 with me since trying to get in the same team when playing together isn't a pain in the ass anymore. Also, apparently a lot of people like to see numbers rising, so they play more because of the level. While MyM was far from perfect, it still was good enough to improve the experience.

I imagine the bots would remain relatively consistent, if anything people would take down their bots if they feel there's no point to having them anymore (ie profit isn't enough or they don't care about TF2 pixels anymore). You can't explain away huge differences in player amounts with 'oh, bots'.

I feel like we should all take a step back and breathe for a moment. Too many people are too willing to get hostile over this. People are upset at Valve and it's understandable, MyM was an overhyped mess that interrupted a traditional update, and the game has yet to recover from it. Also it is starting to look like the next update could be more of the same perhaps? (skipping Halloween to update something important, that does sound familiar.) It is however not as bad as it used to be this year and the game is still playable, but the only way to get something changed with this game is to communicate with the team working there, however there's an old saying that comes to mind when I read what everybody is posting: You can attract more flies with honey, than with vinegar. You have to be somewhat careful about what you say, don't you think? The team is already getting e-mails with some nasty comments in them, would a little kindness hurt after all this? I say have a bit more patience, the team has heard our complaints loud and clear, be cautious about the update, but maybe not so bitter about the whole thing. Mistakes happen, and they are fixing these mistakes... slowly.

[QUOTE=phillipc;51251902]: You can attract more flies with honey, than with vinegar. [/QUOTE] 100% not true with valve. Demoman nerfs? No polite conversation, whining, it got fixed. The R8? No cordial discourse, outrage, it got fixed. No map for EOTL? Huge shitstorm, it got added. Oh, remember Diretide? They got it after a ruckus was raised. But when valve is confronted with, as you said, kindness and patience, nothing ever gets done because their shitty default mode is "valve time" which they've been allowed to use as an excuse until something pisses off enough people, then shit gets done and fast. I'm still waiting for an optimization update that was hinted at half a year ago, plus the rollback on idiotic balancing that only got reverted for demo because people got pissed. You think this is just this update, but it's their track record that weighs against them.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51251965]100% not true with valve. Demoman nerfs? No polite conversation, whining, it got fixed. The R8? No cordial discourse, outrage, it got fixed. No map for EOTL? Huge shitstorm, it got added. Oh, remember Diretide? They got it after a ruckus was raised. But when valve is confronted with, as you said, kindness and patience, nothing ever gets done because their shitty default mode is "valve time" which they've been allowed to use as an excuse until something pisses off enough people, then shit gets done and fast. I'm still waiting for an optimization update that was hinted at half a year ago, plus the rollback on idiotic balancing that only got reverted for demo because people got pissed.[/QUOTE] Just because you can name a handful of notable cases where outrage granted results doesn't mean that outrage is the only way. There's been plenty of things that have been communicated to and from with Valve in peaceful ways and handled efficiently with care. Outrage working some of the time doesn't justify outrage for the sake of outrage.

It's just kind of like... why do you get so [b]mad[/b] over this game? What causes that reaction for you? I mean, shit, I'm probably the single most financially invested person in TF2 at the moment, but I don't get all "OMG VALVE YOU'RE SO FUCKING [b]STUPID[/b]" when they do something I don't really like, because I realize that I have [i]absolutely none of the context behind their decisions[/i] and they don't owe me [i]shit[/i].

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51251980]Just because you can name a handful of notable cases where outrage granted results doesn't mean that outrage is the only way. There's been plenty of things that have been communicated to and from with Valve in peaceful ways and handled efficiently with care. Outrage working some of the time doesn't justify outrage for the sake of outrage.[/QUOTE] Holding people accountable and calling them out when they miss every opportunity to redeem themselves after a plethora of fuck ups is not "outrage for the sake of outrage". You can add the paid mods shit to that list too, which, surprise, only got evened out when a near riot was incited. It was so bad my sixty year old father with no knowledge of video games asked me about it, so great was the backlash. [QUOTE=geel9;51251984]It's just kind of like... why do you get so [b]mad[/b] over this game? What causes that reaction for you? I mean, shit, I'm probably the single most financially invested person in TF2 at the moment, but I don't get all "OMG VALVE YOU'RE SO FUCKING [b]STUPID[/b]" when they do something I don't really like, because I realize that I have [i]absolutely none of the context behind their decisions[/i] and they don't owe me [i]shit[/i].[/QUOTE] You're asking me why I get mad when they fuck something up I like, refuse to acknowledge their fuck up, and will turn around to say they're working on stuff which, based upon their record, will also be a fuck up the thing I like. [QUOTE]"OMG VALVE YOU'RE SO FUCKING [b]STUPID[/b]"[/QUOTE] This isn't a strawman at all. [QUOTE] and they don't owe me [i]shit[/i][/QUOTE] What is consumer sovereignty for 400 alex.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51251988]Holding people accountable and calling them out when they miss every opportunity to redeem themselves after a plethora of fuck ups is not "outrage for the sake of outrage". You can add the paid mods shit to that list too, which, surprise, only got evened out when a near riot was incited. It was so bad my sixty year old father with no knowledge of video games asked me about it, so great was the backlash.[/QUOTE] Paid mods are a great idea though and the backlash was completely unwarranted.

[QUOTE=geel9;51251990]Paid mods are a great idea though and the backlash was completely unwarranted.[/QUOTE] Saying that is a quick way for many people to not respect your opinion anymore. :v:

[QUOTE=Skunky;51251994]Saying that is a quick way for many people to not respect your opinion anymore. :v:[/QUOTE] Okay.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51251988]Holding people accountable and calling them out when they miss every opportunity to redeem themselves after a plethora of fuck ups is not "outrage for the sake of outrage". You can add the paid mods shit to that list too, which, surprise, only got evened out when a near riot was incited. It was so bad my sixty year old father with no knowledge of video games asked me about it, so great was the backlash. You're asking me why I get mad when they fuck something up I like, refuse to acknowledge their fuck up, and will turn around to say they're working on stuff which, based upon their record, will also be a fuck up the thing I like. This isn't a strawman at all. What is consumer sovereignty for 400 alex.[/QUOTE] But you must take a step back and see things from other perspectives. While Valve hasn't redeemed themselves entirely, they have redeemed themselves in part, over time. There are many other perspectives to take into consideration other than your own, and sometimes the vocal majority is what leads the way. Paid mods, while actually having nothing to do with this conversation or the way TF2 is ran, were ultimately given some retrospect and reverted due to the current reception of it all. While this is likely done because of the instant feedback, other things need more time to sizzle before changes are reverted. TF2 has always been Valve's testbed, and while having a beta branch kept up to date would be better, it's going to stay the testbed it is unless changes are made to its structure. Don't like how something is handled? Make it known, contact them, and construct your thoughts in a constructive manner. Bring up discussions on how to fix those things rather than dwelling on since-fixed mistakes of the past. A mistake doesn't set one's future in stone, and things can be changed for the better, but you must make an active effort to change it for the better yourself in a patient, constructive manner. Valve has seen some pretty bad shit over time simply because of the nature of the internet. It's full of terrible people and they can all readily send hate and outrage to Valve and the TF2 Team at any given chance. Despite maintaining a calm chain of tweets on Twitter earlier today, someone responded to another community contributor by saying Valve "deserved the hate they get" because "the main developer of TF2 is a tr*nny ponyf*g." Choosing to censor just because I don't feel like typing those hateful words out in full. And that's just one example of the kind of stuff that can be sent to Valve at any point and seen by real people that work on this game. Take a step back and realize that while they're a dominant developer in the industry, they are still people. As said earlier, you can attract more flies with honey. Take it all into consideration, understand what must go into all that needs implementation, and work on it constructively to see positive changes to the game and the community.

[QUOTE=geel9;51251984]It's just kind of like... why do you get so [b]mad[/b] over this game? What causes that reaction for you?[/QUOTE] hate to quote myself, but [QUOTE=Contra132;51251620]What I'd like you to consider is that the people spreading "hate" in this thread, such as Johnny Joe or Exor, are getting upset and frustrated for two valid reasons: * This update's launch was a buggy disaster with a significantly lower amount of content than previous years (which is an indisputable fact) * They genuinely love this game, just as you do, which is why it's so upsetting to them to see a decline in communication and quality. Remember, everyone here is here for the same reason: they care about TF2. MUS is all about finding out what the next big thing will be, and sharing that news as it leaks and breaks. It's also about discussing the upsides and downsides of the recent update, what we [i]want[/i] from the new one, and what we [i]don't[/i]. [B]Nobody here legitimately despises the TF Team[/B], but they [I]are[/I] angry. They're angry because they feel like the game is declining, they're angry because it feels like their voices aren't being heard and they might not be able to save what's likely one of their favorite games.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=phillipc;51251902]I say have a bit more patience, [B]the team has heard our complaints loud and clear, be cautious about the update,[/B] but maybe not so bitter about the whole thing. Mistakes happen, and they are fixing these mistakes... slowly.[/QUOTE] Obviously not. If they heard complaints loud and clear and listened to community feedback, we'd have gotten a significantly better Halloween update, Competitive Mode wouldn't be a complete and utter joke, and the game wouldn't have been broken for nearly 3 entire days upon releasing an update because they'd have done the bare minimum effort of actually making sure the contracts fucking work. Like, I don't think you should be overly hostile with Valve, either, but the TF Team seriously slacked on making this a presentable update, which is especially terrible because Halloween is meant to be our highest playercount event of the year. Their communication is nil. Implementing changes based on feedback or reverting poor changes based on it? Similarily nil. Don't make excuses for the TF Team. At this point they don't deserve it.

[QUOTE=geel9;51251990]Paid mods are a great idea though and the backlash was completely unwarranted.[/QUOTE] A great idea for Valve to pocket more cash.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51251988] You're asking me why I get mad when they fuck something up I like, refuse to acknowledge their fuck up, and will turn around to say they're working on stuff which, based upon their record, will also be a fuck up the thing I like. [/quote] Yeah, and I still don't understand the raw [i]anger[/i]. It's as if you think that Valve is intentionally fucking everyone over because "haha look at our shekels this is amazing FUCK THEM OVER MORE GUYS". You seem to forget that these are real people, most of which [i]really do care[/i] about TF2 and the state of it. People are [b]always[/b] going to fuck up, and you will NEVER get perfection. The simple reality is that the TF2 team is pretty damn small, and they're doing the best they can to release the best updates they can in a reasonable timespan. Sometimes that means they have to forego events like Halloween. [quote=Johnny Joe] This isn't a strawman at all. [/quote] It was hyperbole, yes. [quote=Johnny Joe] What is consumer sovereignty for 400 alex.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You aren't actively paying for TF2; your expectation of service extends pretty much as far as you stop paying. If you pay for a key, you should get a key (and you do, in fact, receive said key). You didn't pay for the Halloween event, so even if it sucks (which you were warned about considerably ahead of time), your "consumer sovereignty" isn't being threatened. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=vevota;51252060]A great idea for Valve to pocket more cash.[/QUOTE] Yeah, things tend to work that way for businesses. It was also a great idea for modders. Things can be mutually beneficial.

The issue with paid mods wasn't so much the idea of paying mod creators, it was introducing a paid mod ecosystem to a pre-existing, thriving, free mod community. Additionally, the revenue shares gave Valve and Bethesda far too much, leaving the creators with a miniscule percentage of their sales.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252032]But you must take a step back and see things from other perspectives. While Valve hasn't redeemed themselves entirely, they have redeemed themselves in part, over time. There are many other perspectives to take into consideration other than your own, and sometimes the vocal majority is what leads the way. Paid mods, while actually having nothing to do with this conversation or the way TF2 is ran, were ultimately given some retrospect and reverted due to the current reception of it all. While this is likely done because of the instant feedback, other things need more time to sizzle before changes are reverted. TF2 has always been Valve's testbed, and while having a beta branch kept up to date would be better, it's going to stay the testbed it is unless changes are made to its structure. Don't like how something is handled? Make it known, contact them, and construct your thoughts in a constructive manner. Bring up discussions on how to fix those things rather than dwelling on since-fixed mistakes of the past. A mistake doesn't set one's future in stone, and things can be changed for the better, but you must make an active effort to change it for the better yourself in a patient, constructive manner. Valve has seen some pretty bad shit over time simply because of the nature of the internet. It's full of terrible people and they can all readily send hate and outrage to Valve and the TF2 Team at any given chance. Despite maintaining a calm chain of tweets on Twitter earlier today, someone responded to another community contributor by saying Valve "deserved the hate they get" because "the main developer of TF2 is a tr*nny ponyf*g." Choosing to censor just because I don't feel like typing those hateful words out in full. And that's just one example of the kind of stuff that can be sent to Valve at any point and seen by real people that work on this game. Take a step back and realize that while they're a dominant developer in the industry, they are still people. As said earlier, you can attract more flies with honey. Take it all into consideration, understand what must go into all that needs implementation, and work on it constructively to see positive changes to the game and the community.[/QUOTE] Are you seriously comparing my frustration with the way TF2 and other valve IPs have been handled to a tweet about gay ponies? I'm not attacking them personally, I'm attacking their actions, the things they do. And the things they do are very questionable. Every time someone says "give valve more time" "they'll be better next time" "getting mad never solved anything (except literally every major faux pas has been fixed by a riotous frenzy" I am reminded of that little cartoon of that dog sitting in a burning house and while every thing goes to cinders he convinces himself that everything is fine. [QUOTE=geel9;51252064] The simple reality is that the TF2 team is pretty damn small, and they're doing the best they can to release the best updates they can in a reasonable timespan. Sometimes that means they have to forego events like Halloween. [/QUOTE] You'd think a multi billion dollar corporation which holds a virtual monopoly on the digital game distribution market would maybe assign a few blokes to one of their largest cash making entities Oh wait, flat management structure, everyone works on what they want to, no concrete roles. I wonder who cleans the toilets, perhaps that's where the TF team is.