Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

I think the TF2 community is being quite reasonable all things considered. I mean one of the first reactions of /r/tf2 was a few walls of text explaining the situation from their point of view in a largely civilized manner, that was right after the update when people were pissed the most. Then they returned to depression memes. It's not like people are spamming car manufacturers with shitty emoticons and cryptic one-liners and raiding metacritic. I've become quite detached from the game over the last year, and while the endless negativity can be annoying, I don't blame you guys in the slightest. Things have a very endgame-ish vibe as of late, even if numbers don't reflect that.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252206]Something to take into consideration with all this is also the age and development process of the game and Valve itself. There's only a few that have stuck on the TF team consistently over the years, otherwise due to Valve's structure, people come and go. Maybe someone was working on a fix but they drifted over to CS:GO and never swiveled back over. Perhaps its simply a matter of developers forgetting to implement something over time, or there being an internal error. One update for a map didn't ship properly for a short time because of a mix-up and the team confusing an internal version of a map for the one that was shipped. Despite the common viewpoint of Valve never having anything to do and just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, there's a lot more in-depth things going on we don't know about. Implementing new things or fixing minor old things can be hell with something as old as the trusty Source engine, and Valve is almost certainly playtesting new and possibly-improved things at least a few times a week. All the usual business every work day combined with the ever-changing work structure can result in things unknowingly being swept under the rug. Does any of this excuse the changes, bugs, lack of fixes, or strange standpoints? No, of course not, but its all something to take into consideration when addressing these sorts of things. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it fair to those who feel wrongly treated [while others may feel perfectly fine about it all], but its all something to consider.[/QUOTE] I have considered it, and I've gone on record opining that Valve's corporate structure and revolving-door development is deleterious to productivity, consistency, and accountability.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51252197]Because we give them lots and lots of cash. It's also hard to respect the people who nerf the fuckin laser joke weapon bison, perhaps you can tell me why they thought that was a great idea? Nobody seems to want to answer the very simple question: can you justify or find any reason for valve's balancing of tf2? Because everyone wants to gloss over these game changes and not think "why" or "what the fuck", but we all seem rather content to just "wait for greener pastures" "smile and take it" "be nice and perhaps something good might happen"[/QUOTE] Can you see why others would like to see that nerf for the Righteous Bison maintained? Personally, I'm fine with all the workings of the weapons, I play the game and stick to what I know and just have fun. I ultimately don't pay too much attention to specific stats and strategies because I just play to have fun with some friends rather than work up a killstreak or top a leaderboard. But I want to know that you're able to see things from other perspectives. Yes, you don't like the nerf to this weapon, or the balancing of another, but just because you don't personally like it doesn't mean it's the worst they could've done to it. There comes a point where Valve has to compromise. For every voice calling for a nerf, there's one calling for a buff. Not everyone can be happy all the time, and unfortunately Valve has to be the deciding vote in what to establish, and we are all on the receiving end. From my understanding, people seemed relatively happy from the balance changes that shipped with Meet Your Match. But of course I may have been seeing posts from people that may not have agreed with you. As for the cash, you don't have to give it to them. You're never obligated to give Valve money and the ability to do so should never be part of your reasoning. It's entirely optional.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252224] Personally, I'm fine with all the workings of the weapons, I play the game and stick to what I know and just have fun.[/QUOTE] You're seriously saying weapon and class changes don't matter because lol just have fun :^) I mean if they decide to give soldier the valve rocket launcher who cares because, hey just stick to what you know right, just have fun, balance means nothing. New change that causes medics to be unkillable? hey man, just play the game, valve's balancing is fine, just have fun. This is just so puerile and idiotic, this idea that paying attention to balance in a team based multiplayer is wrong. I finally understand now, some people just don't give a shit about balance in a game designed to be balanced.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51252242]You're seriously saying weapon and class changes don't matter because lol just have fun :^) I mean if they decide to give soldier the valve rocket launcher who cares because, hey just stick to what you know right, just have fun, balance means nothing. And people wonder why comp TF2 doesn't take off, mass epidemic of apathy.[/QUOTE] No, I'm saying they don't personally affect [i]me.[/i] Balance does matter, I never said it didn't. I'm saying that I roll with the punches because I'm not super knowledgeable on the extensive stats and strategies to begin with. I understand why you feel different, though. How I play isn't how you play, that's fine. But it might also be how others play, or, how others don't play. There's many factors to consider when balancing items, sometimes they benefit some and hinder others. Saying that distributing something like a Valve Rocket Launcher to the masses is blowing my comments out of proportion, and I wouldn't agree to have something like that implemented, even if it was fun. I get killed plenty of times by [i]normal[/i] Rocket Launchers, I don't need any help there! And ah, since you edited, I will re-iterate that balance does matter, but thank you for resorting to calling me idiotic! There's a bit of miscommunication and misunderstanding to all this, I feel, and its not helping either end of the spectrum.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252258]No, I'm saying they don't personally affect [i]me.[/i] Balance does matter, I never said it didn't. I'm saying that I roll with the punches because I'm not super knowledgeable on the extensive stats and strategies to begin with. I understand why you feel different, though. How I play isn't how you play, that's fine. But it might also be how others play, or, how others don't play. There's many factors to consider when balancing items, sometimes they benefit some and hinder others. Saying that distributing something like a Valve Rocket Launcher to the masses is blowing my comments out of proportion, and I wouldn't agree to have something like that implemented, even if it was fun. I get killed plenty of times by [i]normal[/i] Rocket Launchers, I don't need any help there![/QUOTE] So when your favorite class is nerfed into the ground, how does one "roll with the punches"? You're like that teacher who says "things will get better" to a student who just got fucking creamed at school and no one bothered to help. again, they nerfed the buffalo steak sandvich. No one asked for it, nothing warranted it. I didn't even use it but it cemented in my mind the image of a valve who doesn't give a shit. Instead of actually doing things we request they fuck up something out of left field, and they've been doing it for a while.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51252264]So when your favorite class is nerfed into the ground, how does one "roll with the punches"? You're like that teacher who says "things will get better" to a student who just got fucking creamed at school and no one bothered to help.[/QUOTE] I let it be discussed by people more knowledgeable in it all. I don't know how to balance the game, or what works for different playstyles. If people think it can be changed/fixed, then they can discuss that with other people that feel the same way, or debate it with people that feel differently. I don't have enough info on how things work to voice a strong opinion an balancing in any sense, but will forever be in support of the idea of it so that as many people as possible can enjoy the game.

-snip nevermind, sorry for trying to come in with the best of intentions. i'll be quiet-

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252271]I don't know how to balance the game[/QUOTE] Then you know as much as the TF team.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51252279]Then you know as much as the TF team.[/QUOTE] Do you have any ideas in-mind for how to address these balances? If anything, let's just cut to that and discuss your changes you've thought of, rather than aimlessly spouting off at eachother. How do you think these balances should be adjusted to better suit the playerbase?

What I miss is when each Scream Fortress update had something nice and exciting in it, or some cool gimmick: It started of with a simple reskin of a map with exploding pumpkins and a ghost that spooked you and like... 2 cosmetics. Not a lot, but at the time it was new! Second one came with a more complex reskin that added in a new boss/NPC, Halloween presents that you had to find in the map (and it was not private, if the gift spawned, you had to be lucky to get it) and some more cosmetics. Doesn't sound like much now, but at that time it was seriously amazing, because bosses or NPCs in TF2 weren't really a thing. Third one came with another reskinned map that added in an entirely new area to the map, another new boss/NPC, Valve-made item sets, and some reskins, so again, things were improving. Fourth one had two reskinned maps with new gimmicks like Merasmus and the Wheel and the MVM map was just an entirely new (and kinda hard) mission on a reskinned map, bunch of Valve-made and Community-made cosmetics, few of which had unique voice lines, magic spells for items (that they later completely removed :v:) and they fixed the terrible gift system, so now not everyone on the server has to look for that one gift, they spawned privately for them now. Even more stuff! Fifth one had yet another reskinned map (with another new big area) which had freaking spells, those were fucking sweet and I still love them, even though the map itself was terrible because it was Hightower. Also no Merasmus, but the brothers were voiced by Nolan so that's close enough. Lots of cosmetics (102 apparently, granted, mostly because they added in a lot of sets.), quite a lot of which came with unique things, like footstep sounds or just voice lines and there was also the Eternaween item. This and the fourth and sixth one are still my favorite, because they all had some cool and new shit to play with. Sixth one... you guessed it, another reskinned map... of another terrible map, but whatever it had more Merasmus in it and also freaking bumper cars (and bonus ducks. :v:), which was another cool gimmick. A few cosmetics again (less this time, and none of which had any unique things for them I think), unlocked crates, one weapon reskin and that was kinda it. It was slightly above average, really. Seventh one had 5 maps, 4 of which were reskins, one was for Mannpower, which is terrible so it might as well not exist. This is also where Valve was busy with shit so they couldn't quite be arsed to do anything properly this year. The 4 maps were mostly forgettable, since they were nothing but reskins, with no new gimmicks that all previous maps had in the Scream Fortress update, except maybe for Hellstone which spawned random NPCS when a checkpoint was reached, but that's about it. All the other maps had pumpkin bombs around the map and Moonshine Event had the Wheel of Fate... that's kinda about it which, compared to the new maps from the previous update, was really fucking lame. The "gimmick" in this update was the Campaign which had Contracts that played on the new maps and also the fact you could collect souls with your Gargoyle by killing enemies, doing map objectives, or collecting the Soul Gargoyles that spawn in the maps... [B]meh.[/B] Nothing terribly exciting. Cosmetic-wise it was also lame with only 19 new cosmetics, but at least it had two kickass taunts! Halloween Transmuting was also added, which is just cool I guess, but other than that it was just not very full of interesting (or really "new") content. And now we are at the eight one, same deal as before, Valve couldn't be fucked to do anything new again so they just slapped in some stuff in there while they are working on the next update. What do we get this time? 3 new maps, 24 new cosmetics, some new tool, two new taunts, one which was made by Valve, and hooray, we get Contracts again... [I]yay.[/I] Just like the previous maps, none of them have any unique, new or interesting gimmicks about them, except maaaaybe for Pit of Death, if we are being generous. A lot of the cosmetics are just... meh, but some of them are really great, like Heavy Tourism, Burly Beast, Colossal Cranium etc. Although why some of them were added in an [B]HALLOWEEN[/B] update... I don't really fucking know??? Over all, this was just a fucking ass update, lack of decent content and contracts [B]STILL[/B] not working. For me, the only highlight in this update are the two taunts, which is a bit bad if that's honestly the only thing I consider good in this update. Most people consider the maps the highlight in this update. Fair enough, I guess, but for me, the only reason the maps in Scream Fortress updates were a highlight to me, was because of the random, silly and crazy gimmicks they had in... which none of the last two updates really had, so for me, it's just not interesting. One of the big reasons I played during the Scream Fortress updates was because of the great maps and other neat features added in with it and because of some of the great cosmetics, the last two didn't really hit the spot for me though. At the beginning, each update went up with content, ideas and gimmicks and lots of other stuff, but after the sixth one it just really went downhill, it didn't just stay at the top or maybe went even a bit higher, it just went down. Crashing down. I used to get really excited for the Halloween updates, too, but not anymore. Sure, the game got older, less people are working on it etc, but those updates always made me excited, because even though TF2 was an old game and started to get a bit boring, Valve always managed to make it exciting/interesting for me again, even if just temporary. It's a shame, but there isn't much you can do about it, maybe I'll get used to it next year... if they even bother with it again. :pudge: [U][B]Short version: Content used to get better and better, but after a while it just went completely down, less things were added and what made Scream Fortress updates great wasn't really there anymore. Game is old, so whatever, but I'm still gonna be disappointed because I can.[/B][/U]

I really hope you come to regret this tirade Johnny, especially when everyone else comes online and reads it.

[QUOTE=VX-79;51252288]I really hope you come to regret this tirade Johnny, especially when everyone else comes online and reads it.[/QUOTE] Sorry for voicing my opinion of a video game on a video game forum....?

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252282]Do you have any ideas in-mind for how to address these balances? If anything, let's just cut to that and discuss your changes you've thought of, rather than aimlessly spouting off at eachother. How do you think these balances should be adjusted to better suit the playerbase?[/QUOTE] Actually, he did exactly that a thousand times before. Generally it involves undoing the shitty nerfs that literally nobody ever asked for.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252282]Do you have any ideas in-mind for how to address these balances? If anything, let's just cut to that and discuss your changes you've thought of, rather than aimlessly spouting off at eachother. How do you think these balances should be adjusted to better suit the playerbase?[/QUOTE] Not to butt in, but I think it should actually involve the playerbase in some way, whether that means notifying the community ahead of time of what changes they're looking to make or just allowing input via discussion. Valve and various community figureheads have stated several times they're trying to communicate more, but if anything it seems like they're doing the exact opposite of that. Obviously I'm not saying they should hand over all balance and future suggestions to r/tf2 or anything but it wouldn't hurt to explain who is still working on the game and/or any weapon changes they have considered or scheduled to be released in a future update and then gauging whether or not the changes should be put in, preferably via an in-game vote or something using your Steam account. Pyro vs Heavy was sort of like this, but I mean on a smaller scale, without fighting for points or anything like that.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51252294]Sorry for voicing my opinion of a video game on a video game forum....?[/QUOTE] There's voicing your opinion and then there's being belligerent and insulting someone because they don't exactly agree with your abrasive complaints. Either take a step back and a breather or take this to PMs, though I'd wholeheartedly recommend the former.

[QUOTE=Doctor Hunt;51252299]Not to butt in, but I think it should actually involve the playerbase in some way, whether that means notifying the community ahead of time of what changes they're looking to make or just allowing input via discussion. Valve and various community figureheads have stated several times they're trying to communicate more, but if anything it seems like they're doing the exact opposite of that. Obviously I'm not saying they should hand over all balance and future suggestions to r/tf2 or anything but it wouldn't hurt to explain who is still working on the game and/or any weapon changes they have considered or scheduled to be released in a future update, preferably via an in-game vote or something using your Steam account. Pyro vs Heavy was sort of like this, but I mean on a smaller scale, without fighting for points or anything like that.[/QUOTE] I'm sure reviving the Beta branch would help a lot with that, but not everyone took part in that. Otherwise, a vote-based system would help to a degree, if at least to better visualize the thoughts of the community.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252282]Do you have any ideas in-mind for how to address these balances? If anything, let's just cut to that and discuss your changes you've thought of, rather than aimlessly spouting off at eachother. How do you think these balances should be adjusted to better suit the playerbase?[/QUOTE] Revert L&W nerfs. Nerf the Sandman, lower projectile speed, reduce stun time for non moonshots Re-work hitboxes ala CSGO, should help with most projectiles Revert medic healing nerf when target is en-flamed revert 2/14/12 sandvich nerf Revert bison nerf Revert BSS nerf, remove dmg taken penalty revert dead ringer speed buff, keep spy base speed buff Revert CaC to 1st/2nd iteration, 9 sec duration, minicrits taken/given Lower dalokahs bar consumption time to 2 secs, 50% sandvich Add from Pyro with love changes plus what drury said, everything I've already said a million times before. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=VX-79;51252307] then there's being belligerent and insulting someone because they don't exactly agree with your abrasive complaints. [/QUOTE] You mean like calling someone's legitimate ideas a tirade?

#makeTF2greatagain For real tho aside from everything Johnny just said, I think replacing a lot of hitbox projectiles with hitscan where possible would help a ton. Also just a little bit of bias from a medic main but finding a balance between dropped mediguns being almost useless the second they're dropped to being stupidly OP. They drain way too fast to be of any use right now unless you want to switch types.

[QUOTE=Void Skull;51252308]I'm sure reviving the Beta branch would help a lot with that, but not everyone took part in that. Otherwise, a vote-based system would help to a degree, if at least to better visualize the thoughts of the community.[/QUOTE] Beta only really failed because it was a 2nd TF2 to install, and that was back in 2011, I'd hate to imagine it now [QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51252322] Re-work hitboxes ala CSGO, should help with most projectiles[/QUOTE] I'm not sure that would even be feasible given current Source's limitations, though I'd love for Valve to prove me wrong. [QUOTE=Whomobile;51252332]I think replacing a lot of hitbox projectiles with hitscan where possible would help a ton.[/QUOTE] IIRC that would make most projectiles only 1x1x1 in terms of how the engine registers it, as in the hitbox would be way too small for most rockets/bombs

[QUOTE=geel9;51251990]Paid mods are a great idea though and the backlash was completely unwarranted.[/QUOTE] Paid mods should of been like map stamps, just an optional donation system with 100% of funds going to the mode maker (minus taxes of course). Of course Valve and Bethesda wouldn't make any money that way.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;51252406]Paid mods should of been like map stamps, just an optional donation system with 100% of funds going to the mode maker (minus taxes of course). Of course Valve and Bethesda wouldn't make any money that way.[/QUOTE] Original developer making money was actually fundamental to the whole idea. It was supposed to revitalize modding, and the original developer having the benefit of extra profits was supposed to get developers to make their games more moddable and thwart the closed source future that we're hurtling towards.

Can someone inform me what was the last update that made the facepunch tf2 forum go to a civil war?

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;51252763]Can someone inform me what was the last update that made the facepunch tf2 forum go to a civil war?[/QUOTE] Meet your Match. If you do not call that a Civil War, there is always the great tough break drama. (On topic of the Civil War: I will never take anyone serious who says that "Heavy has been nerfed to the ground and is now useless")

hello i am the dude that likes robots and mvm turned out to be a temporary experiment despite thousands over thousands of ticket bought goodbye

Tf2 is slowly and painfully slow declining. I wish it had a future but I don't think it does. But I will still play on pubs as long as servers are running.

I think a lot of people had high expectations of this update, considering what we used to have in previous years. - Discontinued the updating Gibus, wearing that proud vs newcomers (:what:) - We lost the gaining new item from map by doing thing XYZ - Halloween gifts were turned to player only, no more fun collecting them - No new achievements (with slight return in plr map) - No new Valve made map with new things The major update became minor update. A lot of people, including me, expected a lot more. It's sad that we have come to this, as there is no incentive to play the maps once you have gathered all merasmissions. I remember trying to melee HHH to death and getting that haunted metal. Man it took some time and was fun. Things like this keep the interest up and us happy. Sadly we didn't get any of this. My only fun for this year is going trough the new merasmissions and that the map i did got through. Haven't even seen a single new creepy crawly crate and i would have opened many of them by now. I really, really don't understand their point of view regarding these updates and putting stuff in to make people happy and players playing.

Valve is hurting tf2, and they aren't gonna stop. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] They have moved on guys, don't kid yourself. The few people who are left aren't enough to create a future for this game.

Late as to the valve communication tirade but they did fix zombie skins for mvm after getting notified by me

As others have said, tf2 is, like many other games, a Legacy Game. Valve could stop updating the game right now and it would still have a big Playerbase.