Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

The Reserve Shooter isn't a crutch (even if it is a stupid weapon), and using the Flare Gun isn't much better as far as skill indexing when its crit function (airblast to crit combo) is nigh identical. And if we're discussing skill indexing, then how does the stock shotgun require greater dexterity than the Reserve Shooter as far as base mechanic skill goes?

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;51266440]Personally I would like to see a limit of 2 each for engine, spy and sniper and 3 for the rest in casual along with standard 6 limits for comp. I'm sure casual class limits would cause a huge shitstorm though.[/QUOTE]One could dream. Last on payload maps is becoming the bane of my existence as of late, especially when I can't depend on a team to coordinate with an uber.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51267030]The Reserve Shooter isn't a crutch (even if it is a stupid weapon), and using the Flare Gun isn't much better as far as skill indexing when its crit function (airblast to crit combo) is nigh identical.[/QUOTE] Because aiming a single shot projectile takes more tact than four hitscan shots? And you aren't required to use airblast to achieve a crit with the flare gun like with the reserve shooter, believe it or not. Having more possible ways to make something work is kind of the definition of depth. NOW I'm done

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[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;51266440]Personally I would like to see a limit of 2 each for engine, spy and sniper and 3 for the rest in casual along with standard 6 limits for comp. I'm sure casual class limits would cause a huge shitstorm though.[/QUOTE] I'd have a few problems with this. I don't think casual should have limits on classes. Since it isn't suppose to be taken super seriously and your also denying people the potential chance to learn how to run classes on specific real maps. I'd also get annoyed when we have a heavy that's pocketed by a medic and surrounded by teammates and I'm locked from sniper because some dead weights are hogging the slots.

[QUOTE=VX-79;51267029]And protecting the Engie's buildings from spam and the spy and the Medic from backstabs in HL seems pretty important to me.[/QUOTE] highlander spy taggin' in on this one pyros can be a huge pain, especially if they hard-focus me, but heavies who play defensively around their combo are ten times worse for me trying to go for picks. heavies can also deny bombers much more effectively than a pyro can. [QUOTE]No comp Pyro in their right mind uses the Reserve Shooter because they know those two extra shells can win an encounter and they don't have to use airblast combos for literally all of their kills.[/QUOTE] they also don't use RS because it's banned however, in comp, stock shotty is generally better, since players will stay out of airblast range to prevent being puff-n-stinged so your point there is valid

[QUOTE=Contra132;51267134]they also don't use RS because it's banned[/QUOTE] That is a very important factor which I forgot :v:

I never felt the RS is OP, it is an annoying gimmick but actually useless when compared to flare/stock and heavy vs pyro still going on?, when the war was going, anyone who supported pyro was rated dumb and got stupid replies, yet you say pyro won because kids voted for him. And you say Pyro is a bad class, easy and doesn't take skill when compared to heavy, yet heavy is the exact thing, while he was designed in the first place literally for people who can't aim

i only respect pyro because it can protect my buildings as engineer. If pybros didnt exist I'd flat out opt for removing the class altogether.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51267483]I never felt the RS is OP, it is an annoying gimmick but actually useless when compared to flare/stock and heavy vs pyro still going on?, when the war was going, anyone who supported pyro was rated dumb and got stupid replies, yet you say pyro won because kids voted for him. And you say Pyro is a bad class, easy and doesn't take skill when compared to heavy, yet heavy is the exact thing, while he was designed in the first place literally for people who can't aim[/QUOTE] Heavy actually takes a great deal of tracking in order to maintain DPS, especially on mobile targets like Soldier or Scout. Pyro takes significantly less aim to play. Seeing as you have the ability to flat out delete momentum with an m2 click.

heavy requires more situational awareness and tracking skill than any class barring the sniper, honestly

[QUOTE=Oizen;51267645]Heavy actually takes a great deal of tracking in order to maintain DPS, especially on mobile targets like Soldier or Scout. Pyro takes significantly less aim to play. Seeing as you have the ability to flat out delete momentum with an m2 click.[/QUOTE] Pyro needs very good aim with flares, but most of skill goes to timing, predicting and general awareness. I'm not discrediting heavy, it does require good tracking for good plays, but if you want to pull off the w+m1 shit for Pyro, then it's the same for heavy, except you don't need the w

Pyro is an offense class whose use competitively is almost entirely support. He's more support than 2/3 of the support classes. That's all you need to say about him.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51267723]Pyro needs very good aim with flares, but most of skill goes to timing, predicting and general awareness. I'm not discrediting heavy, it does require good tracking for good plays, but if you want to pull off the w+m1 shit for Pyro, then it's the same for heavy, except you don't need the w[/QUOTE] I have 20 hours on Pyro and easily can pull off flare crits. Pressing m2 on a burning target then firing your flare at point blank is as skillful as hitting a pipe on an enemy you are french kissing.

[QUOTE=Demo-the-man;51267805]I have 20 hours on Pyro and easily can pull off flare crits. Pressing m2 on a burning target then firing your flare at point blank is as skillful as hitting a pipe on an enemy you are french kissing.[/QUOTE] I'm talking more like this [video]https://youtu.be/B1Zi1I07xAQ[/video]

I just want Pyro's existence to exceed beyond "Airblast Spammer". We also really shouldnt have to argue which Class needs more Skill when we are talking Pyro vs. Heavy.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51267845]I'm talking more like this [video]https://youtu.be/B1Zi1I07xAQ[/video][/QUOTE] I mean, sure, he did get helpful picks... But only about 3-4 of those required any skill (predicting), as all the others were close range and the enemy was airblasted. Yeah, he did reflect rockets, but any fuckin' Pyro can do that nowadays.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51267845]I'm talking more like this [/QUOTE] I mean this guy's editing is really cool but ultimately he's just air blasting and flaring. Airblast kills all your enemy's momentum, so they're in a state where they literally cannot do anything, and its apparently skillfull to hit them during that state? Sounds like overwatch really. The only pyro main I've ever been impressed with was Sketcheck and the shit he did with the Detonator. [video=youtube;9VJqCax0kfw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VJqCax0kfw[/video] Stuff like this is a lot more interesting than the typical airblast flare.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51267759]Pyro is an offense class whose use competitively is almost entirely support. He's more support than 2/3 of the support classes. That's all you need to say about him.[/QUOTE] Pyro hasn't been an offense class since... pretty much ever. The only time he was scary on offense was on pubs when using the old Phlog, and maybe the week of the original Backburner. Fire is way too weak to do much any more, so he's relegated to be the weird Engineer and combo buddy.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51266293]tf2 would've been a better game with soldier designed with 175 hp and pyro with 200 from there that would have changed the outcome of so many updates along the years.[/QUOTE] And that's what beta or beta branch could be used to. Make some crazy changes. Like they doubled health of all classes that one time. Also generally speaking I think they should somehow increase a danger related to being on fire. Like reduce by 35% health gained from all sources.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51267882]I mean this guy's editing is really cool but ultimately he's just air blasting and flaring. Airblast kills all your enemy's momentum, so they're in a state where they literally cannot do anything, and its apparently skillfull to hit them during that state? Sounds like overwatch really. The only pyro main I've ever been impressed with was Sketcheck and the shit he did with the Detonator. [video=youtube;9VJqCax0kfw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VJqCax0kfw[/video] Stuff like this is a lot more interesting than the typical airblast flare.[/QUOTE] Sketchek is the reason I haven't fully abandoned the class all together. He's was a god at pyro.

Pyro could be just redesigned as a support class, I don't see how a close range flamethrower can be an option for offense with Soldier and Demoman as options. Just make him fully support /defense and viable there.

[QUOTE=quake84;51268172]Pyro could be just redesigned as a support class, I don't see how a close range flamethrower can be an option for offense with Soldier and Demoman as options. Just make him fully support /defense and viable there.[/QUOTE] Let's just remove class classification all together. It's not that it matters any more and also each character may fulfill different roles with different equipment. Engie for instance is not just defense character anymore. Sentries can be used in aggressive pushes.

Pyro mains will hate me for this but Pyro always was and is useless outside spy checking. And as long as Valve doesnt give him a complete revamp changing primary weapon type from flamethrower to something else [B]HE WILL STAY USELESS FOREVER.[/B] Only option to save this class from obscurity is to improve it where it currently fits (support) rather than try to make it an offense class to avoid reordering the class selection screen.

I think most problems lays in Pyro's flamethrower. His airblast allows for some support (ie: über stuntlock) or for some aggresive playstyle (ie: reflect jump), he seems to try cover too many roles and she underperforms against other classes when it goes head and depends of flanks/übers (kinda like Scout without mobility). I guess a fix would be to improve the flamethrower hit detection and REDUCE the visual clutter while holding m1, I was thinking about making the m2 work like gravity gun from HL2 to "hold x proyectile (s)" and allow it to release them when needed. Of course the proyectile would explode after y seconds.

[QUOTE=FalconHBFS;51268559]I think most problems lays in Pyro's flamethrower. [/QUOTE] I could have sworn it was his fire axe.

[QUOTE=LZoleee;51268900]I could have sworn it was his fire axe.[/QUOTE] I know it's a joke but that's actually one of the popular beliefs. At least years ago.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51267885]Pyro hasn't been an offense class since... pretty much ever. The only time he was scary on offense was on pubs when using the old Phlog, and maybe the week of the original Backburner. Fire is way too weak to do much any more, so he's relegated to be the weird Engineer and combo buddy.[/QUOTE] I dissagree Yes Pyro is a way a support class. He can reflect projectiles and harass and potentialy kill people long range with the flare gun. Hell you can even pick snipers and medic long range if you get to hit them twice. BUT in close range pyro is absolutely an offensive class, as he can a lot more he otherwise he couldn't. It's actually where it's potentail lies. You can control your enemies/projectiles with airblast, spread burns and achieve maximum dps with shotgun (if you have it equipped) within said range. Add degreaser to that mix and your oponnents will have a very hard time battling you if they decide to approach you.

[QUOTE=Scizor;51269135]I dissagree Yes Pyro is a way a support class. He can reflect projectiles and harass and potentialy kill people long range with the flare gun. Hell you can even pick snipers and medic long range if you get to hit them twice. BUT in close range pyro is absolutely an offensive class, as he can a lot more he otherwise he couldn't. It's actually where it's potentail lies. You can control your enemies/projectiles with airblast, spread burns and achieve maximum dps with shotgun (if you have it equipped) within said range. Add degreaser to that mix and your oponnents will have a very hard time battling you if they decide to approach you.[/QUOTE] Ok,but what if we start comparing the close range potential of the other classes?

[video]https://youtu.be/5zJ4mc6za4Y[/video]