Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;51269386]Ok,but what if we start comparing the close range potential of the other classes?[/QUOTE] Uhh do you mean as in vs Pyro? Becouse Heavy is the only one who can reliably upfront beat full hp pyro

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51269459]-vid-[/QUOTE] Ok, I am guessing the point you are trying to get across is "Pyro is a lot more than airblasting, he is not just W+M1, he takes skill to play and Heavy is for players who cannot aim for shit and are bad." Which is not gonna work when you are giving us a Pyro defending Steel in a pub. So, let's say a Pyro has the classic "I main Pyro" loadout on. Which would be the following: - The Degreaser - Flare Gun - The Powerjack What would he usually be doing in combat? Airblasting, reflecting, killing enemies and spychecking. Airblasting is designed to keep enemies away from the Pyro and to reflect projectiles, yeah? But it's mainly used to execute a tactic you guys call "Puff N Sting", which is igniting an enemy, airblasting them and critting them with a flare. Killing any low HP class right then and there. This is as effective as it is right now cause [B]you basically cannot move once airblasted.[/B] On top of that, if they DARE live and try running, no biggie, just shoot a flare! It's one of the fastest projectiles in the game! Even if you replace the flare gun with, say, the stock, you are still going to deal INSANE damage. All cause they were in your general direction and you pressed M2 then switched to your secondary. And then lo and behold comes the Reserve Bad. Which [B]rewards you for pressing a button.[/B] Sure, it has a smaller clip, but that won't matter cause they will likely die after the second or third shot anyway! At least against a Heavy, you can escape and not worry about him following you. Cause he has no viable escaping option like Pyro does! Fists of Steel nor G.R.U are going to save a Heavy from a group of enemies, cause he will still be pretty slow. He also has to worry about Sniper, Spies and spam more than Pyro does cause 1 - He is slow and 2 - He cannot reflect or reach them to fight back. Before you bring up something like "har har hevi kamp lul n00b xd", I want you to know that I've done statistically better as a Pyro in a smaller life-span. Not trying to wave my dick right and about, just so you know. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/KtaPsf1.png[/IMG]

I've gotten two contracts on Carnival and two on IIRC moonshine just give me more variety, i wish it would give you all of the unique contracts before looping back around

Insulting anyone because their choice in favorite class may require less skill, be it mostly based on opinion or even having some statistical facts, is a low and petty way to argue a point. Though I responded to someone else suggesting so first, it was still painfully rude and childish of me to use that use that point. People arguing over which class takes more skill to personally insult each other is a surefire way to ruin any form of civil discussion we could actually be having. Each person has their preference in who they main and as long as you don't insult others' choices, you should have no reason to defend that.

[QUOTE=ikes;51269736]I've gotten two contracts on Carnival and two on IIRC moonshine just give me more variety, i wish it would give you all of the unique contracts before looping back around[/QUOTE] I've only had one contract dupe; two Eyeaduct contracts. I have to say though that Brimstone is really fun, it's less hectic than Hellstone and it is generally more fun with less bosses locking down the last cap

[QUOTE=Scizor;51269517]Uhh do you mean as in vs Pyro? Becouse Heavy is the only one who can reliably upfront beat full hp pyro[/QUOTE] soldier would like a word

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;51269868]soldier would like a word[/QUOTE] Airblast is calling, want me to put on hold?

[QUOTE=Scizor;51269135]I dissagree Yes Pyro is a way a support class. He can reflect projectiles and harass and potentialy kill people long range with the flare gun. Hell you can even pick snipers and medic long range if you get to hit them twice. BUT in close range pyro is absolutely an offensive class, as he can a lot more he otherwise he couldn't. It's actually where it's potentail lies. You can control your enemies/projectiles with airblast, spread burns and achieve maximum dps with shotgun (if you have it equipped) within said range. Add degreaser to that mix and your oponnents will have a very hard time battling you if they decide to approach you.[/QUOTE] "In close range Pyro is an offensive class", yeah, in the same way that Engineer is an offensive class in range of his sentry. You can't form a front line with Pyros, because they don't have midrange capability or health or mobility to do that. You're forced into a playstyle around teammates (support) or sneaking around without being very able to get behind enemy lines like Scout or Spy because of the lack of cloak or double jump, meaning you're lying in ambush (defense). There isn't much offense in there.

[QUOTE=Demo-the-man;51269880]Airblast is calling, want me to put on hold?[/QUOTE] Pyro can't react to soldier rockets at close range, and at midrange soldier can bomb the pyro and beat him 100% of the time.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;51269905]Pyro can't react to soldier rockets at point blank, and at midrange soldier can bomb the pyro and beat him 100% of the time.[/QUOTE] A [I]~skilled~[/I] Pyro could.

[QUOTE=Demo-the-man;51269908]A [I]~skilled~[/I] Pyro could.[/QUOTE] A ~skilled~ soldier could fake out the pyro and get him to airblast early. I mean yeah, a good pyro can beat a shitty soldier, you got me.

As for the other classes; Scout - Scattergun outdamages the Pyro regardless of range (excluding flare snipes), can easily heckle him outside of Flamethrower/Airblast range and pelt him to death with buckshot/pistol rounds. Can engage and disengage almost immediately, and can put out flames by running five seconds to the nearest health kit or use Mad Mlik. Demoman - Air-detonations with the Loose Cannon or Sticky Launchers can work around Airblast or even run the Pyro out of primary ammo, can also try to get fancy with rollers. Depending on the shield one can use it to get out of dodge or tough it through the flames. Full-on melee-only Demoknights are screwed though. Engineers - Sentries. Or Mini-sentries while being heckled by a lesser version of the Scout. Or the occasional crit wrench to the face. Medic - Assuming you manage to catch him unawares or without a partner nearby, needles aren't that much weaker than flamethrowers. Blutsauger can win a war of attrition at times, Overdose can get him out of dodge. Vaccinator laughs at Pyro, while other non-Kritz ubers can keep him alive long enough to find help. Also, crit Ubersaws. Sniper - Genuinely should lose the fight up close, but Pisswhack combos, random crits, and the occasional Huntsmen shenanigans exist. Spy - Can attempt to gun down a Pyro outside of Airblast range. Spycicle helps out too. Otherwise loses up close by design.

Would increasing the Range of the Flamethrower be terrible?

I kind of wish airblasts were actually useful against stickies. I don't really understand why they aren't - Pyro would be a way better Demo counter with it. Stickies barely roll away from airblasts, don't change team colour, and can still get detonated in the air. If one or more of those factors got changed it would mean a lot for the viability of Pyros and would be a small nerf to the Sticky Launcher, which really isn't a problem.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51270245]I kind of wish airblasts were actually useful against stickies. I don't really understand why they aren't - Pyro would be a way better Demo counter with it. Stickies barely roll away from airblasts, don't change team colour, and can still get detonated in the air. If one or more of those factors got changed it would mean a lot for the viability of Pyros and would be a small nerf to the Sticky Launcher, which really isn't a problem.[/QUOTE] well, bullets can destroy stickies and stickies are stationary and arent hard to reflect already, and explosions can knock them around. Just a small amount of awareness can save you from adhesives

[QUOTE=Tinker;51270245]I kind of wish airblasts were actually useful against stickies. I don't really understand why they aren't - Pyro would be a way better Demo counter with it. Stickies barely roll away from airblasts, don't change team colour, and can still get detonated in the air. If one or more of those factors got changed it would mean a lot for the viability of Pyros and would be a small nerf to the Sticky Launcher, which really isn't a problem.[/QUOTE] that was covered long ago. it used to be legitimately uneffective but the strength was buffed. ownership doesn't change because of the terrible griefing potential airburst doesn't change because that's how stickybombs work. reflecting an object doesn't magically change its mechanism.

[QUOTE=Demo-the-man;51269704]Ok, I am guessing the point you are trying to get across is "Pyro is a lot more than airblasting, he is not just W+M1, he takes skill to play and Heavy is for players who cannot aim for shit and are bad." [/QUOTE] No, I didn't mean that, Pyro does indeed take much more than w+m1, I dropped the video just because I found it interesting and related to the topic, and I'm not trying to insult heavy mains, both classes have an undeniably low skill floor. also I gotta say that I'm not holding a defensive position, I'm not a pyro main, I don't have a main at all actually, I try to play all classes, well atleast recently. airblast isn't a goodly designed mechanic, however when you're in a pyro's range, you're already dead, you should never be anywhere near a pyro as you already know anyone can take him down from range, whatever way he chose to attack you, you will die, whether it be airblast spamming or w+m1. for the RS, the previous point kicks in, aswell that flares are much better in that scenario, dealing 95 damage + afterburn while you don't need to stay near your enemy to kill him (scout for example) again I'm not saying the RS is okay, it is a badly designed weapon, but OP?, heck no, it's the second worst secondary after the manmelter, shotgun is better because you can deal a high amount of damage outside airblast range, where all enemies with working brain would be, that's where the RS is a direct downgrade. It's banned in competitive, correct, but same as natascha/sandman and other gimmicks, all are annoying gimmicks but still useless also, I have like 22 hours as heavy, I can destroy a pub and do a pretty good job keeping the team together, I can do decent tracking against a scout in close range, where's the skill part that I'm missing? "Pyro is for noobs and is a bad class hence why he shouldn't receive an update fixing him"

[QUOTE=Tinker;51270245]I kind of wish airblasts were actually useful against stickies. I don't really understand why they aren't - Pyro would be a way better Demo counter with it. Stickies barely roll away from airblasts, don't change team colour, and can still get detonated in the air. If one or more of those factors got changed it would mean a lot for the viability of Pyros and would be a small nerf to the Sticky Launcher, which really isn't a problem.[/QUOTE] They arent fuse based explosives, someone needs to detonate them. If you change their team, the demo suddendly loses control over them as in any sane game engine there are checks if your team is the same as the object's you're trying to control. Therefore you would be left with a unowned garbage sticky. And even if demo was exempt from the team checks, suddendly the demo can kill teammates with very high efficiency as three stickies are enough to gib almost all classes. Think sentry spawncamping but with no gimmick, just a demo pressing LMB and a pyro pressing RMB in front of spawn. Batshit simple, would be abused. It's fine right now, the stickies cannot be altered or it will make the game [B]LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE [/B]because OpenGriefing.org and Delfy exist, remember?

Heavy needed the update more because unlike Pyro, he's redeemable.

[QUOTE=quake84;51270334]They arent fuse based explosives, someone needs to detonate them. If you change their team, the demo suddendly loses control over them as in any sane game engine there are checks if your team is the same as the object's you're trying to control. Therefore you would be left with a unowned garbage sticky. And even if demo was exempt from the team checks, suddendly the demo can kill teammates with very high efficiency as three stickies are enough to gib almost all classes. Think sentry spawncamping but with no gimmick, just a demo pressing LMB and a pyro pressing RMB in front of spawn. Batshit simple, would be abused. It's fine right now, the stickies cannot be altered or it will make the game [B]LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE [/B]because OpenGriefing.org and Delfy exist, remember?[/QUOTE] i suppose you could mitigate this by having airblasted stickies just auto-detonate X seconds after being given to the pyro, but that would still be a bit griefable, since i could see demos just intentionally laying stickies by their teammates/buildings for their pyro buddy on the other team to set off i guess that isn't too different from intentionally feeding a pyro rockets, though

Pyro mains are the whiniest people outside the demo mains

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51270364]Heavy needed the update more because unlike Pyro, he's redeemable.[/QUOTE] Almost every update is a pyro buff. I find it relaly odd taht people think this update will be THE update where pyro is finally "good"

[QUOTE=Oizen;51270516]Almost every update is a pyro buff. I find it relaly odd taht people think this update will be THE update where pyro is finally "good"[/QUOTE] 5 years of spoiling them makes them really annoying.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51270516]Almost every update is a pyro buff. I find it relaly odd taht people think this update will be THE update where pyro is finally "good"[/QUOTE] Well, same as heavy mains expecting a buff to "the good old days", unfortunately I don't think Pyro is easy to make viable, only if they decide to rework the whole class, then it might be good. for heavy, he was built up to have easier aim but make other aspects compensate for that, but they failed to make anything else compensate and then they keep nerfing him every time, here's one thing to compare, both a new heavy player and a new pyro are annoying to fight, however new heavy can actually get kills. biggest problem for heavy in my opinion is that they're trying to balance him around comp, where a medic is up your ass 24/7, heavy is still really viable in competitive, however his problem is he's very good with a medic, but sucks when alone, like in pubs, I hope they try buffing heavy but nerf heavy+medic combo, like slower overheal maybe?

The only update when pyro will be good is when they make it full support... ... or remove it. You know, a good pyro is a [B]nonexistent[/B] pyro

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51270364]Heavy needed the update more because unlike Pyro, he's redeemable.[/QUOTE] So a class doesn't deserve to be become reworked [i]first[/i] (let's keep in mind that both will eventually receive an update) because balancing them would require more effort? I understand with the TF2 team's recent track record that fixing anything, let alone the balance of two entire classes, sounds like nothing short of a miracle. But I can't even begin to imagine how you can defend something not getting fixed in game when the devs are literally paid to do that. I said it before and I'll say it again, we shouldn't had to have fought over this kind of thing in the first place. The old team would have managed to make matchmaking and Heavy vs. Pyro into a single multi-day update. Just because things are worse now doesn't mean you should just give up on fixing a part of the game you apparently don't care about. [QUOTE=Stroheim;51270506]Pyro mains are the whiniest people outside the demo mains[/QUOTE] Personally insulting people isn't going to help your case that Heavy players deserve an update more. [QUOTE=Oizen;51270516]Almost every update is a pyro buff. I find it relaly odd taht people think this update will be THE update where pyro is finally "good"[/QUOTE] Just because they're technically giving pyro buffs doesn't mean that makes up for the class still being bad. I think I'd prefer a working car over a broken down one with a pretty air freshener in it.

When was the last time Demoman got a nerf, btw? It seems like he's literally gotten a buff every update since 2013.

Little late to weigh in on the conversation, but I've always found Pyro most effective as a crowd controller. Get the drop on large groups and pester them with fire, play goalkeeper for your Engie and stall ubers, and, if all else fails, make a mad dash to the point and start airblasting people off. Getting kills is good, but wasting the other team's time and generally being a nuisance is better. In my own experience.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51270606]Well, same as heavy mains expecting a buff to "the good old days", unfortunately I don't think Pyro is easy to make viable, only if they decide to rework the whole class, then it might be good. for heavy, he was built up to have easier aim but make other aspects compensate for that, but they failed to make anything else compensate and then they keep nerfing him every time, here's one thing to compare, both a new heavy player and a new pyro are annoying to fight, however new heavy can actually get kills. biggest problem for heavy in my opinion is that they're trying to balance him around comp, where a medic is up your ass 24/7, heavy is still really viable in competitive, however his problem is he's very good with a medic, but sucks when alone, like in pubs, I hope they try buffing heavy but nerf heavy+medic combo, like slower overheal maybe?[/QUOTE] The reason people want Heavy buffed is because pretty much every update ever since 2013 has nerfed him. And its not like Heavy has ever had this dominating presence on maps, he's always practically required a Medic to function. So it was really baffling to see valve consistently nerf every aspect of him. [QUOTE=Trumpatriach;51270660]When was the last time Demoman got a nerf, btw? It seems like he's literally gotten a buff every update since 2013.[/QUOTE] Meet your Match. The Sticky+Boots combo got nerfed because pros were using it, you dont even bring the grenade launcher to play as a 200hp +10% speed Sticky spammer. Tough Break killed Demoknight But if you're talking about stock demoman, that would be Smissmass 2014

[QUOTE=Trumpatriach;51270660]When was the last time Demoman got a nerf, btw? It seems like he's literally gotten a buff every update since 2013.[/QUOTE] With quickiebomb becoming a direct upgrade as a prime example, you're correct.