Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

you all get mad about pyros being in the game but spy is the real problem like congratulations, you have an obnoxious class built around what was initially a bug, just to counter one class who's already countered by heavy, demo, soldier, pyro to an extent, and any amount of team coordination. Spies are the most infuriating, disgusting class in this game

[QUOTE=Oizen;51270700] The Sticky+Boots combo got nerfed because pros were using it, you dont even bring the grenade launcher to play as a 200hp +10% speed Sticky spammer.[/QUOTE] lol no one actually did this. GL still better than two passive stats.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51270726]lol no one actually did this. GL still better than two passive stats.[/QUOTE] I've seen it used in 6s matches and personally ran it myself a lot.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51270864]I've seen it used in 6s matches and personally ran it myself a lot.[/QUOTE] were the scouts AFK?

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51270906]were the scouts AFK?[/QUOTE] Since when did the grenade launcher become the answer for Demo dealing with Scout over the sticky bomb?

The Stickies + boots were used to make pushes with Kritz *slightly* more effective, since it used to make the demoman not only faster but also allowed him to take a bit more damage. Nowadays its pretty dead though. (Also wasnt aware of how Classist Facepunch is :V )

[QUOTE=Oizen;51270918]Since when did the grenade launcher become the answer for Demo dealing with Scout over the sticky bomb?[/QUOTE] since stickies can't reach any enemy at pointblank / close range when needed, especially if the opponents are airborne

[QUOTE=ikes;51270707]you all get mad about pyros being in the game but spy is the real problem like congratulations, you have an obnoxious class built around what was initially a bug, just to counter one class who's already countered by heavy, demo, soldier, pyro to an extent, and any amount of team coordination. Spies are the most infuriating, disgusting class in this game[/QUOTE] Oh no, an otherwise weak class can punish me for a lack of situational awareness! #TurningAroundIsTooHard2016

[QUOTE=VX-79;51270650] Just because they're technically giving pyro buffs doesn't mean that makes up for the class still being bad. I think I'd prefer a working car over a broken down one with a pretty air freshener in it.[/QUOTE] Dude you get a working car every other update. It's a hand-me-down car, but you can roll down the windows, start the engine, use the air conditioner, drive down to the store, your friends house, the bank, and whatever else you want to do. Plus, it also comes with that air freshener. You don't need a new car every other month. Deal with the car for once.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51271018]Oh no, an otherwise weak class can punish me for a lack of situational awareness! #TurningAroundIsTooHard2016[/QUOTE] way to defend garbage design mechanics because the reward of an instakill is really good compensation for happening to be within a 90 degree cone relative to your opponent oh but if you fail you can just right click and reset, especially with one favorite invis watch unlockable sure he's weak, that doesnt mean he isnt absolutely horrid to deal with. the game would be healthier without him sorry I offended you, senor spy expert.

[QUOTE=ikes;51270707]you all get mad about pyros being in the game but spy is the real problem like congratulations, you have an obnoxious class built around what was initially a bug, just to counter one class who's already countered by heavy, demo, soldier, pyro to an extent, and any amount of team coordination. Spies are the most infuriating, disgusting class in this game[/QUOTE] Spy doesn't really counter any particular class per say. IF an engineer identifies a spy before he can really apply a sapper to a sentry he's automatically shut down due to the fact if he does anything the sentry will murder him instantly. The instant spy lost frag grenades ( and to a lesser extent gas grenades ) for the sapper was the point when spy really didn't counter engineers. He generally combats unaware people in general. Where good teammates, communication, listening and occasional keep tabs on the surroundings can make the spy's work a living nightmare when it comes to getting anything done in a reasonable fashion. Only reason why he generally prays against snipers, engineers and heavies a little bit more is because when they're distracted they generally don't move as frequently. Sniper's scope in and move in a short area, Heavy's gunning down people are slowed down significantly and Engineers who are building tend to stay with in a small area around their sentry encase they need to move or repair it.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;51271063]Dude you get a working car every other update. It's a hand-me-down car, but you can roll down the windows, start the engine, use the air conditioner, drive down to the store, your friends house, the bank, and whatever else you want to do. Plus, it also comes with that air freshener. You don't need a new car every other month. Deal with the car for once.[/QUOTE] I can't even argue with someone who doesn't understand that Pyro is just straight up broken.

spy changes the game just by existing anyways. you always play as if there is a spy even when there isn't because the penalty for falling to a spy is so great The Spy speed buff is annoying as shit though, half the time I clip into the Spy and then have to track the piece of shit while he's running into me. I'm not the kind of idiot who follows Spies up stairs but when they run right into me while strafing it gets me every time.

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;51271191]spy changes the game just by existing anyways. you always play as if there is a spy even when there isn't because the penalty for falling to a spy is so great[/QUOTE] That's the entire point. Even if there's no Spy, you should be checking your back and surroundings constantly. This game is full of high-damage, high-mobility flanking classes. Not checking your back will get you killed, regardless of whether Spy is in the game or not. Every player has a point where they're being tormented by Spies, especially Snipers and Heavies. Learning to be aware of Spies will prevent you from being backstabbed, but also raise your gamesense as a whole for countering flankers, being aware of the map, and even keeping your ears open for sentry beeps, decloaks, footsteps and all the other sounds you can pick up on in TF2. Spy is an annoyance at best to a skilled player. Speaking from my competitive experience here. If you're getting backstabbed frequently, it's a You problem, not a Game problem. [QUOTE]The Spy speed buff is annoying as shit though, half the time I clip into the Spy and then have to track the piece of shit while he's running into me. I'm not the kind of idiot who follows Spies up stairs but when they run right into me while strafing it gets me every time.[/QUOTE] [B]Don't engage the single class in the game with an instakill melee at melee range.[/B] That's just common sense. Keep your distance and shoot- all your primaries do more damage more reliably than any of his.

Spy's core design is fine, but he has a lot of really awful weapons that make him super tanky at the moment, which he shouldn't be. I wish they buffed the default Spy a little more and nerf the endless amount of gimmick crap he has. There's a lot of Sandman-tier unlockables on him which aren't necessarily overpowered, just horrible to play against. [editline]28th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=quake84;51270334]They arent fuse based explosives, someone needs to detonate them. If you change their team, the demo suddendly loses control over them as in any sane game engine there are checks if your team is the same as the object's you're trying to control. Therefore you would be left with a unowned garbage sticky. And even if demo was exempt from the team checks, suddendly the demo can kill teammates with very high efficiency as three stickies are enough to gib almost all classes. Think sentry spawncamping but with no gimmick, just a demo pressing LMB and a pyro pressing RMB in front of spawn. Batshit simple, would be abused. It's fine right now, the stickies cannot be altered or it will make the game [B]LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE [/B]because OpenGriefing.org and Delfy exist, remember?[/QUOTE] That's fair, but at least then make them be able to more easily delete sticky traps, or something. The fact that a badly placed trap won't ever come back to the Demo to haunt them when a Pyro is nearby seems weird. The knockdown could be a whole lot more.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51271325]Spy's core design is fine, but he has a lot of really awful weapons that make him super tanky at the moment, which he shouldn't be. I wish they buffed the default Spy a little more and nerf the endless amount of gimmick crap he has. There's a lot of Sandman-tier unlockables on him which aren't necessarily overpowered, just horrible to play against.[/QUOTE] What unlocks? The only problematic unlocks for Spy that come to mind for me are: * Spy-cicle (in pub settings, mind- perfectly fine in competitive, where the trade-off is actually a big deal.) * Diamondback (crits for everything, not very skill-indexed and easy to abuse at range- banned in comp for a reason) * Red Tape Recorder, which is not only infuriating to play against but less useful than stock sapper in many situations Enforcer used to be included in this list, but now it's easily the worst primary for Spy. I'd put pre-nerf Dead Ringer here, too, and I assume current DR is what you're talking about, but current DR is pretty easy to defend. Current Dead Ringer's resistance is the main reason behind this. It doesn't turn Spy into a tank- the highest damage resist the current DR has is 75% when activated. This will allow Spy to tank a single crit sticky or headshot without being killed, but this is assuming the Spy is at full health and isn't using a weapon like the Big Earner, which means those will still kill him at the beginning of his feign. Additionally, the damage resist lowers over time. It's 65% after the activation (mind that it's impossible for Spy to have full health at this point, since he needed to be damaged to begin with) and quickly goes down to 25% over the span of the speed boost, which lasts three seconds. The remaining 3-4 seconds of the cloak, should they be used, will return to the 20% reduced damage of the normal cloak. Current Dead Ringer is great for pestering, mind, but it doesn't tank nearly as much as it used to. Focus fire, a random crit or simply chasing the Spy ([B]they are only fast for three seconds, and they are absolutely headed to the nearest ammo kit[/B]) will all make sure he dies. Compare this to being able to tank 3 backstabs and multiple crit-stickies with the original Dead Ringer, and you can see there's a huge difference in tankiness now. It's not even close. Dead Ringer, additionally, trades off a lot of mobility on a Spy's end. Specifically, the ability to get into position for a key pick without being detected. There's a reason why my Invis Watch has seen more usage than my DR. Stock Invis will always be the better watch.

[QUOTE=VX-79;51270650]So a class doesn't deserve to be become reworked [i]first[/i] (let's keep in mind that both will eventually receive an update) because balancing them would require more effort? I understand with the TF2 team's recent track record that fixing anything, let alone the balance of two entire classes, sounds like nothing short of a miracle. But I can't even begin to imagine how you can defend something not getting fixed in game when the devs are literally paid to do that. I said it before and I'll say it again, we shouldn't had to have fought over this kind of thing in the first place. [/QUOTE] What I'm saying is, that in every iteration of Team Fortress, nobody has had any idea of what to do with the Pyro. He will never be "fixed." Any update for him will ultimately be a wasted effort compared to what could have been done with any of the other classes. Heavy should have gotten his update first, as he has the potential to have all of his problems fixed and made into a more effective class

[QUOTE=Contra132;51271421]What unlocks? The only problematic unlocks for Spy that come to mind for me are: * Spy-cicle (in pub settings, mind- perfectly fine in competitive, where the trade-off is actually a big deal.) * Diamondback (crits for everything, not very skill-indexed and easy to abuse at range- banned in comp for a reason) * Red Tape Recorder, which is not only infuriating to play against but less useful than stock sapper in many situations Enforcer used to be included in this list, but now it's easily the worst primary for Spy. I'd put pre-nerf Dead Ringer here, too, and I assume current DR is what you're talking about, but current DR is pretty easy to defend. Current Dead Ringer's resistance is the main reason behind this. It doesn't turn Spy into a tank- the highest damage resist the current DR has is 75% when activated. This will allow Spy to tank a single crit sticky or headshot without being killed, but this is assuming the Spy is at full health and isn't using a weapon like the Big Earner, which means those will still kill him at the beginning of his feign. Additionally, the damage resist lowers over time. It's 65% after the activation (mind that it's impossible for Spy to have full health at this point, since he needed to be damaged to begin with) and quickly goes down to 25% over the span of the speed boost, which lasts three seconds. The remaining 3-4 seconds of the cloak, should they be used, will return to the 20% reduced damage of the normal cloak. [/QUOTE] Those weapons, yeah, plus the DR. The problem isn't as much the tankiness alone, but the tankiness (and it's pretty huge, he can tank 475 damage, which is ridiculous) combined with all the escape options. It's just a complete get-out-of-jail-free card that's a massive pain to go up against and nullifies Pyros if you're not stupid enough to go in a straight beeline. It's not as EFFECTIVE in all situations, but it's an annoyance and rewards Spy players for playing completely in sight and "badly". (And don't start with the "but a Spy is supposed to be annoying" - so is Scout, and Sandman is still awful design.) It doesn't help that the power creep in Spy's revolver kind of add to it - it's really, really hard to do much about combined with the Ambassador or the L'Etranger. The original DR was stupid too, but at least you could put them on fire. The current way of actually following DR spies is hoping someone has a Jarate or Mad Milk, and... that's it. That's insane. It either needs less damage resistance, no silly fire resistance, or it shouldn't get refilled from ammo. Either of those would be fine.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51271421]What unlocks? * Red Tape Recorder, which is not only infuriating to play against but less useful than stock sapper in many situations[/QUOTE] I'd argue "Many" should be "practically all" or "most" situations. Only a few points I've seen where the RTR really shines. 1. The rebuild rate is rather slow, making it easier for your team to capitalize on even after the sentry is unsapped. ( Something I have yet to see pubs ever capitalize one even when I did use the thing... lol ) 2. Mini spam as it disables the engineers ability to spam minis for a longer time then stock. Does it still completely drain dispensers though of all their metal? I haven't used the RTR in a while, hell my strange one has been sitting at 25 for a long ass time now... I won't touch it over my Festive Sapper. [QUOTE=Tinker;51271499]Those weapons, yeah, plus the DR. The problem isn't as much the tankiness alone, but the tankiness (and it's pretty huge, he can tank 475 damage, which is ridiculous) combined with all the escape options. It's just a complete get-out-of-jail-free card that's a massive pain to go up against and nullifies Pyros if you're not stupid enough to go in a straight beeline. It's not as EFFECTIVE in all situations, but it's an annoyance and rewards Spy players for playing completely in sight and "badly". (And don't start with the "but a Spy is supposed to be annoying" - so is Scout, and Sandman is still awful design.) It doesn't help that the power creep in Spy's revolver kind of add to it - it's really, really hard to do much about combined with the Ambassador or the L'Etranger. The original DR was stupid too, but at least you could put them on fire. The current way of actually following DR spies is hoping someone has a Jarate or Mad Milk, and... that's it. That's insane.[/QUOTE] I still place weapons like he Ambassador, L'Etranger and Dead Ringer on the list of Necessary Evil weapons that need to remain intact something comes along the lines of reworking the class into a more fitting roll. Mainly because removing them is also too big of a hit as Spy is still one of the easiest classes to completely shut down even with those unlocks. Removal of them is over kill even if they are deemed annoying. I mainly say this because I don't want a situational class to become even more situational and less functional in the long run, even if the unlocks are annoying. Then again, I never had any real issue dealing with these annoying unlocks in the first place even against competent spies... I feel similarly towards other class unlocks as well, like the Degreaser for Pyro or GRU and Fists of Steal for Heavy.

Honestly, in a perfect world, Valve would actually just remove failed experiments from the game. If something is genuinely a bad design at its core I'd rather just not see it any more. I like classes to be effective in what they were originally doing, not making weird things like Demoknights and DR/Snipe Spies and Flarepunch/RS Pyros. The best unlocks in the game are things that are close to the original philosophy but make interesting adjustments to it, like Your Eternal Reward, or the Quickiebomb Launcher, or the Kritzkrieg. Not weapons that just throw random stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51271586]Honestly, in a perfect world, Valve would actually just remove failed experiments from the game. If something is genuinely a bad design at its core I'd rather just not see it any more. I like classes to be effective in what they were originally doing, not making weird things like Demoknights and DR/Snipe Spies and Flarepunch/RS Pyros. The best unlocks in the game are things that are close to the original philosophy but make interesting adjustments to it, like Your Eternal Reward, or the Quickiebomb Launcher, or the Kritzkrieg. Not weapons that just throw random stuff at the wall to see what sticks.[/QUOTE] Technically, feigning death was part of the spy from the beginning. It was an ability spy had even before he had invisibility. Although it wasn't activated upon taking damage, but activated at will by the spy. It was pretty useless too back then too and barely ever was used. Like the Engineers ability to create ammo with metal and the sniper's flare grenades.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51271499]The original DR was stupid too, but at least you could put them on fire. The current way of actually following DR spies is hoping someone has a Jarate or Mad Milk, and... that's it. That's insane.[/QUOTE] I still disagree about the tankiness point, and assert that DR is exceedingly easy to counter with a coordinated team or even one moderately-killed player. THAT BEING SAID, Yeah, the afterburn resist is pretty stupid. I've been killed by many a Pyro in Highlander despite using current DR (because airblast is great for immobilizing a target, and the resist lowers quite rapidly), but in pubs especially, Dead Ringer becomes two unlocks in one, pretty much. [editline]27th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Tinker;51271586]The best unlocks in the game are things that are close to the original philosophy but make interesting adjustments to it, like Your Eternal Reward.[/QUOTE] okay but that's actually by far the worst knife in the game, it's complete trash just because it "adheres to the original philosophy" (whatever that means, since many of the unlocks you're complaining about were released within a few years of the game's initial release, meaning the original devs likely had a hand in it) doesn't mean it's good

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51271435]What I'm saying is, that in every iteration of Team Fortress, nobody has had any idea of what to do with the Pyro. He will never be "fixed." Any update for him will ultimately be a wasted effort compared to what could have been done with any of the other classes. Heavy should have gotten his update first, as he has the potential to have all of his problems fixed and made into a more effective class[/QUOTE] Again, it's Valve's job to make sure their game works as well as it should. If you're telling me it's literally impossible for a character to be balanced you're bonkers. The Heavy and Pyro updates are both probably going to be shit but that's not because "nobody has had any idea of what to do with the Pyro." The people who are paid to "maintain" this game better have a fucking idea.

2016 has not been a very fun year, from disappointment to shutdown to discontinuation.

[QUOTE=VX-79;51271703]Again, it's Valve's job to make sure their game works as well as it should. If you're telling me it's literally impossible for a character to be balanced you're bonkers. The Heavy and Pyro updates are both probably going to be shit but that's not because "nobody has had any idea of what to do with the Pyro." The people who "maintain" this game better have a fucking idea.[/QUOTE] I'm still sad that Scout was on par with Pyro in previous installments of being a terrible class. Then when TF2 rolled around they completely reworked him into a functional class and as far as I can tell didn't even bother to do the same with the Pyro.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51271677]okay but that's actually by far the worst knife in the game, it's complete trash just because it "adheres to the original philosophy" (whatever that means, since many of the unlocks you're complaining about were released within a few years of the game's initial release, meaning the original devs likely had a hand in it) doesn't mean it's good[/QUOTE] It's not necessarily whether something is effective or not, just whether something is an interesting idea. Things can always be made better by buffing or nerfing (and yeah, the YER could use some). Original devs don't really mean much, the original updates gave us straight upgrades like the Blutsauger and terrible nonsense like the Razorback, Natascha, or the Sandman.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51271780]It's not necessarily whether something is effective or not, just whether something is an interesting idea. Things can always be made better by buffing or nerfing (and yeah, the YER could use some). Original devs don't really mean much, the original updates gave us straight upgrades like the Blutsauger and terrible nonsense like the Razorback, Natascha, or the Sandman.[/QUOTE] If the original devs don't mean much, why does the "original philosophy" mean anything?

[QUOTE=Tinker;51271586]Honestly, in a perfect world, Valve would actually just remove failed experiments from the game. If something is genuinely a bad design at its core I'd rather just not see it any more. I like classes to be effective in what they were originally doing, not making weird things like Demoknights and DR/Snipe Spies and Flarepunch/RS Pyros. The best unlocks in the game are things that are close to the original philosophy but make interesting adjustments to it, like Your Eternal Reward, or the Quickiebomb Launcher, or the Kritzkrieg. Not weapons that just throw random stuff at the wall to see what sticks.[/QUOTE] The thing about keeping around the original design, and the biggest issue I have with people attacking literally every useful ( even if just situational ) unlock on spy is this. It flat out feels to me that the only way an unlock on spy is deemed "good" is if it's either sun on a stick level of bad or it's so situationally useful that the chances of ever running into someone using it is either because they just don't know it's bad or it's small enough that they'll never have to deal with it. Key word being the fact that they "just don't want to deal with it". Which feels more like a personal bias then an actual reason most of the time. It seems that every single unlock for spy, or close enough everyone gets flack because of this. Not because they're bad, but because of this "I don't want to have to deal with it" You bring up the YER being fine, but that's only because it's so bad you'll never really have to worry about the spy using it because he'll be easier to deal with in the long run or they'll probably would stick to stock, which everyone seems to use as a benchmark on fairness even if the class needs options to actually work better. I still see people saying the RTR needs to be nerfed even by todays standards, and as I mentioned above the RTR is so damn situational that anything further would be like nerfing the worthless Phlog or bringing to Sun on a Stick level standards. Yet, I never see any of people attacking the unlocks ever suggest things that would work. At least not ones that aren't total garbage... I do agree the movement speed bits could go, but the tanking ability of the DR I feel needs to stay in the long run.

I wonder how much of a potential shit-fest this game would become if they gave Pyro the Fortress Forever Jetpack Flamethrower mechanic when you simply jump and m1 the floor to start flying. Or would it give him much needed mobility to allow for much better flank routes then the detonator could ever provide?

[QUOTE=SirGentlemann;51272201]I wonder how much of a potential shit-fest this game would become if they gave Pyro the Fortress Forever Jetpack Flamethrower mechanic when you simply jump and m1 the floor to start flying. Or would it give him much needed mobility to allow for much better flank routes then the detonator could ever provide?[/QUOTE] [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OXhd1iYowg"]The beta Detonator would be a good start.[/url]