Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=vevota;51272253][url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OXhd1iYowg"]The beta Detonator would be a good start.[/url][/QUOTE] I wouldn't mind that as you're giving up combos ( or at least back then ) for mobility options. Probably make it better then scorch shot for phlog, and useful for backburner as well for positioning and ambushing.

[QUOTE=SirGentlemann;51272201]I wonder how much of a potential shit-fest this game would become if they gave Pyro the Fortress Forever Jetpack Flamethrower mechanic when you simply jump and m1 the floor to start flying. Or would it give him much needed mobility to allow for much better flank routes then the detonator could ever provide?[/QUOTE] If you want to experience that, go on a CTF2W server. There's a flamethrower on there where aiming at the floor and M1'ing pushes the player upward. All it would need in my opinion is after a certain height gain to just start dropping slowly. To be honest it's not that bad since a decent player can just shoot them out of the sky. A good soldier, sniper, a heavy. Anything with eyes really.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51272290]I wouldn't mind that as you're giving up combos ( or at least back then ) for mobility options.[/QUOTE] This a million times. Scout, Soldier, and Demo prove that mobility is a major key in being an effective offensive class.

[QUOTE=VX-79;51271703]Again, it's Valve's job to make sure their game works as well as it should. If you're telling me it's literally impossible for a character to be balanced you're bonkers. The Heavy and Pyro updates are both probably going to be shit but that's not because "nobody has had any idea of what to do with the Pyro." The people who are paid to "maintain" this game better have a fucking idea.[/QUOTE] Well, they don't. If rhe TF2 team at their best weren't able to make Pyro a viable offensive class, what makes you think the team that comes up with the most bizarre weapon changes can? It doesn't matter that it's their jobs, they've consistently shown in the past few updates that they don't understand what needs to be fixed or how to do it

Still it would be a bit insane seeing 2 or 3 pyroes with the hot air balloon from both teams on the sky box fighting with their reserver shooters in the air. That doesnt mean it wouldnt be awesome though.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51272827]Well, they don't. If rhe TF2 team at their best weren't able to make Pyro a viable offensive class, what makes you think the team that comes up with the most bizarre weapon changes can? It doesn't matter that it's their jobs, they've consistently shown in the past few updates that they don't understand what needs to be fixed or how to do it[/QUOTE] If someone has a job and they're apparently too incompetent to do it, they either need to start taking things seriously and work things out or be replaced by people that actually will. That's how a job works. How is someone's incompetency with previous decisions proof that another thing can't and shouldn't be done if actual effort was put forth?

[QUOTE=VX-79;51272882]If someone has a job and they're apparently too incompetent to do it, they either need to start taking things seriously and work things out or be replaced by people that actually will. That's how a job works. How is someone's incompetency with previous decisions proof that another thing can't and shouldn't be done if actual effort was put forth?[/QUOTE] Because Valve, in their current state, aren't a very good company

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51272927]Because Valve, in their current state, aren't a very good company[/QUOTE] I don't care if it's probably not going to happen because of that, it [b]really should[/b] and that's all I'm saying here.

[QUOTE=vevota;51272253][url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OXhd1iYowg"]The beta Detonator would be a good start.[/url][/QUOTE] trying to fix a class around a single unlock is not a good prospect for obvious reasons.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51273329]trying to fix a class around a single unlock is not a good prospect for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] Well it would be a good start. Cant see the harm in making detonator actually have an use

If the TF2 team can't make something of the Pyro Balance update [url=http://frompyrowithlove.com/]even after the community made a Christmas list[/url] that [url=http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=23536][I]the TF2 team themselves acknowledged[/I][/url], then it is truly time to abandon all hope for TF2.

[QUOTE=Aaron0000;51273739]If the TF2 team can't make something of the Pyro Balance update [url=http://frompyrowithlove.com/]even after the community made a Christmas list[/url] that [url=http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=23536][I]the TF2 team themselves acknowledged[/I][/url], then it is truly time to abandon all hope for TF2.[/QUOTE] That would be too early. You wont see how they fuck up Heavy.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51271807]If the original devs don't mean much, why does the "original philosophy" mean anything?[/QUOTE] Because there are weapons that clearly infringe on other classes' territory. Why does Demoman need to be a short-range powerhouse? Why does Spy need a long-range gun? Why does Heavy need a whole range of silly garbage melee weapons? It's nice to have weapons that actually develop the class you like. I remember being sorely disappointed with the WAR! Update on the Demoman side, because the Soldier got so much interesting stuff while the Demoman didn't get any artillery unlocks except the Scottish Resistance, because it mostly focused on the Demoknight stuff. [QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51271944]The thing about keeping around the original design, and the biggest issue I have with people attacking literally every useful ( even if just situational ) unlock on spy is this. It flat out feels to me that the only way an unlock on spy is deemed "good" is if it's either sun on a stick level of bad or it's so situationally useful that the chances of ever running into someone using it is either because they just don't know it's bad or it's small enough that they'll never have to deal with it. Key word being the fact that they "just don't want to deal with it". Which feels more like a personal bias then an actual reason most of the time. It seems that every single unlock for spy, or close enough everyone gets flack because of this. Not because they're bad, but because of this "I don't want to have to deal with it" You bring up the YER being fine, but that's only because it's so bad you'll never really have to worry about the spy using it because he'll be easier to deal with in the long run or they'll probably would stick to stock, which everyone seems to use as a benchmark on fairness even if the class needs options to actually work better. [/QUOTE] There's a major difference between "I don't want to have to deal with it" and "unfun to play against". Maybe the YER wasn't the best example here: look at things like the L'Etranger, Big Earner or Cloak and Dagger instead, unlocks that clearly facilitate the Spy's playstyle, are good sidegrades with a nice tradeoff. I picked the YER because it's slightly more extreme but still works as a concept, but I suppose if weapons are not effective enough they don't count, or something. I'm not super worried about unlocks being too under- or overpowered as long as their essence works. You had the Loch'n'Load which was a neat idea but was overtuned, or the Crusader's Crossbow that added a cool new element to Medic playstyle but was very slow at the start which got changed through patches. The only problem with this is that the patches currently come so slow and aren't always well-judged that it's tricky to predict whether this will happen, if ever.

Why does pyro have to be a strong offensive class? It's okay to have more minor, niche characters. Also, being burnt is never going to be fun. If you ramp up pyro's effectiveness, it will just be fucking annoying.

[QUOTE=Ace_Rimmer;51274734]Why does pyro have to be a strong offensive class? It's okay to have more minor, niche characters. Also, being burnt is never going to be fun. If you ramp up pyro's effectiveness, it will just be fucking annoying.[/QUOTE] Because people want to be able to play their Character without feeling like a useless tomato if it isnt for Last "Airblast Machine" Johnson taking place.

[QUOTE=SirGentlemann;51272201]I wonder how much of a potential shit-fest this game would become if they gave Pyro the Fortress Forever Jetpack Flamethrower mechanic when you simply jump and m1 the floor to start flying. Or would it give him much needed mobility to allow for much better flank routes then the detonator could ever provide?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=vevota;51272253][url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OXhd1iYowg"]The beta Detonator would be a good start.[/url][/QUOTE][QUOTE=VX-79;51272426]This a million times. Scout, Soldier, and Demo prove that mobility is a major key in being an effective offensive class.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Hell-met;51273329]trying to fix a class around a single unlock is not a good prospect for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] Giving the Pyro more mobility would go a long way toward making them a more viable class, but you're right, you'd have to be careful how you do it. Trying to fix the whole class just by making the Detonator better would make it a must-pick most of the time and leave the other secondaries in the dust, and we don't want that, while the often-suggested airblast jumping or flamethrower jetpack would almost be too good, letting the Pyro literally fly through the air and get anywhere at any time just by holding down a button. Here's an idea I've been kicking around lately. Maybe it's good, or maybe it's garbage and still needs some work, but I think it could work out a bit better than those other options. With any weapon out, the Pyro could press the Shift key to [B]dash forward[/B] in the direction of the crosshair. This has the same force as an [B]uncrouched rocket jump[/B] (a bit better than the current detonator, but not nearly the level of the beta detonator or a full rocket jump) and mainly serves to let the Pyro take flank routes only accessible by Soldiers or Scouts. Using Badlands as an example, Pyros could [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/e/ea/Badlands8.png?t=20111120113210"]get to the small packs on the spire from the bridge[/URL] (while Soldiers can get all the way to the top), [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/70/Badlands7.png?t=20111120112713"]get from the lower lobby by the health and ammo, over the fence up to the upper lobby here[/URL], [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/1d/Badlands5.png?t=20111120111901"]make it across either gap to the spire, or get up to the battlements by jumping from the raised area by the "no trespassing" sign[/URL], [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/a/a9/Badlands3.png?t=20111120110916"]get up to the wood bridge here from down below, or jump through the flank window up to the battlements on the right[/URL], and [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/79/Badlands2.png?t=20111120110513"]jump between the mid bridge and the balcony[/URL]. Really, just boot up any map on a local server, and hop around with the rocket jumper without doing any crouch jumps - those are the routes a Pyro would now be able to take. However, it would also have an [B]~8-10 second cooldown[/B] before you can use it again. Sure, outside of flanking, you could use it in combat to quickly close the distance into flamethrower range, dash out of a fight to try to escape, or jump over someone's head if you're clever, but make no mistake, you're not a Scout or Soldier. You can't just hop around constantly in combat or glide across the map like they can. It's a short burst of mobility that you have to be smart about when to use, not something you always have on demand. Maybe you could also [B]recharge it by picking up ammo[/B] like the Spy's cloak, though? That could add another small element of skill where Pyros could try to surf between ammo packs to keep their mobility up.

[QUOTE=Fluury;51274886]Because people want to be able to play their Character without feeling like a useless tomato.[/QUOTE] but MyM already did that. play 6s classes or lose.

[QUOTE=Ace_Rimmer;51274734] Also, being burnt is never going to be fun. If you ramp up pyro's effectiveness, it will just be fucking annoying.[/QUOTE] Personally, I think Pyro's ability to make entire groups of enemies panic is something I wish were explored more. Double how much damage afterburn does per second, then cut the time afterburn lasts in half. Make it so health packs do not make fire go away. Nerf Scorch Shot because of this.

If you can't even put out the fire you might as well just make it deal an instant extra 60 damage on hit, why waste everybody's time with damage over time when there's nothing to do to prevent it?

afterburn can be fixed by removing all the post-2007 means of extinguish except mannmelter.

[QUOTE=Ace_Rimmer;51274734]Also, being burnt is never going to be fun. If you ramp up pyro's effectiveness, it will just be fucking annoying.[/QUOTE] Getting burnt isn't what bothers me when I fight pyros. What bothers me is getting ariblasted into an insanely predictable arc, and then getting hit by baby's first combo.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;51274967]If you can't even put out the fire you might as well just make it deal an instant extra 60 damage on hit, why waste everybody's time with damage over time when there's nothing to do to prevent it?[/QUOTE] "Make it so health packs do not make fire go away." note how the words "medic" and "dispenser" aren't in that sentence, and given current competitive meta (since that's how we [I]should[/I] be balancing all classes), there will always be a medic. this makes pyro more capable of capitalizing on a member of the enemy team running off or flanking by him/herself, away from the combo. and given current airblasting ability, this means theoretically pyro should be able to deal with roamer and flank scout. increase flamethrower's direct fire damage as well as afterburn damage then, and pyro can do much more competitively as a [I]flank guard[/I]. EDIT: In fact, I think the role of dedicated flank guard is something unexplored in competitive TF2. Flank guarding is a job usually given to the demoman, with stickytraps, but he's usually with the combo and he can't pay attention to the stickies all the time. Roaming soldier can also do it, but he's usually ahead of the combo, be it bombing or spamming from a high place. The scouts can also do it, but at least one of them should be protecting the combo, the other should be doing the flanking to get the edge on the other team. Pyro, if reworked in the right ways, would be perfect at keeping the flank protected at all times, as well as general combo support. He can also flank pretty effectively.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51274982]afterburn can be fixed by removing all the post-2007 means of extinguish except mannmelter.[/QUOTE] How about Afterburn goes away when the Pyro who set you on fire dies So annoying to die from Afterburn after the Pyro died because I can't reach a Health Pack in time, and there are no Medics nearby because they are all dead (Or There are no Medics on our team anyway), No dispensers, and no other Pyros to extinguish me And I have no other way to Regain Health

no lol we're looking to make afterburn good again

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51275252]no lol we're looking to make afterburn good again[/QUOTE] Ok, Afterburn now randomly splits out Little Fireworks that set nearby team mates on fire

Now I need to see if a high-level player would actually be successful flank guarding as a Pyro in current TF2, as it seems to be a pretty perfect role for the Pyro I haven't heard anyone talk about

[t]https://i.gyazo.com/9f7bb6ab9d1b19ef63b80f9bc9bf980a.jpg[/t] [t]https://i.gyazo.com/92ac68688c1fbe55025cea0a1fa8a0e7.jpg[/t] [t]https://i.gyazo.com/1bc21c72f1b01b142eea9d00f328365c.jpg[/t] So much for that increased unusual chance.

[QUOTE=Arthamus;51275322] So much for that increased unusual chance.[/QUOTE] "I didn't get one so the answer must be that Valve is lying."

what if afterburn did twice the damage it does now, but yet at the same time killing the pyro will lower it's damage to a measly 1 damage a second, encouraging the pyro to jump in, burn everyone, and try to survive instead of just getting mowed down on purpose and still get rewarded for doing so [QUOTE=Arthamus;51275322]So much for that increased unusual chance.[/QUOTE] You should raffle all the dupes you got my dude

[QUOTE=geel9;51275346]"I didn't get one so the answer must be that Valve is lying."[/QUOTE] i don't see how you interpret it that way, he obviously meant something like "Well I guess I'm just unlucky despite the doubled unusual chance" rather than "I didn't get anything so it's a lie"