Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Vincentor;51275377]i don't see how you interpret it that way, he obviously meant something like "Well I guess I'm just unlucky despite the doubled unusual chance" rather than "I didn't get anything so it's a lie"[/QUOTE] I've seen a very fair amount of people claim that Valve is lying about doubling the unusual rate. My apologies if I misunderstood.

[QUOTE=DrCactus;51274994]Getting burnt isn't what bothers me when I fight pyros. What bothers me is getting ariblasted into an insanely predictable arc, and then getting hit by baby's first combo.[/QUOTE] Yeah that is the main issue, but it is annoying how they burn you when they seemingly shouldnt be able to. And you can't see shit half the time. But yeah, you're right.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51274910]but MyM already did that. play 6s classes or lose.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about, comp? Because boy, the current metagame in comp if anything is Heavy with a Med up his butt.

Whip that Heavy to the front, people

The 6s meta is nowhere close to the matchmaking meta. I'd assume that be something like: Medic (Quickfix) Medic (Vaccinator) Heavy Demo Soldier Scout No class/weapon bans was a mistake.

My main worry is that Valve will nerf weapons that are only overpowered competitively, like the GRU in 6's, rendering them useless in every game mode, instead of allowing weapon bans.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51275515]My main worry is that Valve will nerf weapons that are only overpowered competitively, like the GRU in 6's, rendering them useless in every game mode, instead of allowing weapon bans.[/QUOTE] The GRU isn't even that bad when you consider the disciplinary action. A lot of weapon bans in 6s purposely try to keep heavy from being full time viable.

so i complained about those cases and general state of the game and then fucking bought two keys at some point in the month anyway because i said i was going to do so earlier in the month. whatever. psychology. also i was just going to spend it on the damned game anyway. I did so have such hopes for this halloween. next year please?

[QUOTE=Oizen;51275528]The GRU isn't even that bad when you consider the disciplinary action. A lot of weapon bans in 6s purposely try to keep heavy from being full time viable.[/QUOTE] Because heavy destroys bombers and slows down the game. same reason quick-fix was such a hot button issue, it was/is just too good at outhealing all the damage done from spam a lot of op weapons aren't inherently op, but they just have unintended side effects that completely change how teams are forced to play. If valve found a way to at the very least rebalance the heavy in such a way it can be worked around then maybe the issue wouldn't be so prominent

The biggest and main Issue with Matchmaking at the moment is a lack of Placement Matches. Placement Matches are a MUST.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51274373]Because there are weapons that clearly infringe on other classes' territory. Why does Demoman need to be a short-range powerhouse? Why does Spy need a long-range gun? Why does Heavy need a whole range of silly garbage melee weapons? It's nice to have weapons that actually develop the class you like. I remember being sorely disappointed with the WAR! Update on the Demoman side, because the Soldier got so much interesting stuff while the Demoman didn't get any artillery unlocks except the Scottish Resistance, because it mostly focused on the Demoknight stuff. [/QUOTE] I don't think there's anything wrong with increasing a class' capabilities beyond their original roles. Spy and Demo, especially, are particularly inflexible in their base loadouts when compared to the rest of the classes (granted, their stock loadouts are also quite good). In fact, your comment about the Crossbow could just as easily be applied to the Ambassador. Stock Medic is a close-range healer, but Crossbow gives him the ability to do that at range (with some trade-offs: namely, good crossbow aim takes practice, and the medigun is still more reliable, since you can't 'miss' your heal beams). Crossbow expands Medic's role and skill ceiling to the point where it's the only primary used in Competitive play and one of the best in the game overall. Meanwhile, Ambassador requires extra skill to use and gives Spy some distance picking ability (but not a lot- 102 isn't going to onehit anybody at full health, there's a full second between headshots, and the weapon is outclassed by stock Revolver at close/medium range in DPS with less effort required on the Revolver's part). Yes, Spy being able to headshot means he has something in common with Sniper, but both are pick classes and Sniper is far better suited for the job, with 150 damage quickscopes, up to 450 damage headshots, the ability to actually scope so you aren't aiming at individual pixels at range. Additionally, Sniper's entire kit is made for a ranged class- not Spy, who remains most effective in close quarters. Ambassador only adds to Spy's design, in my opinion. It can expand his role in the right hands, with trade-offs regardless of skill level. While these trade-offs are mitigated at higher levels of play, Revolver still has its place in the hands of people with the aim required to use Ambassador effectively (especially post-pick survival fights or quick cleanups) and until its user is able to hit consistent headshots, Ambassador is a downgrade in the hands of most Spies using it. Demoknight has pretty much nothing in common with stock Demo, I'll agree, but he's still a lot of fun. Silly, yes, impractical, yes, but still generally fun to play. I'm pretty sure that's the point. [editline]28th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Fluury;51275565]The biggest and main Issue with Matchmaking at the moment is a lack of Placement Matches. Placement Matches are a MUST.[/QUOTE] Class limits are the core to any functioning TF2 Competitive Format, actually. Placement matches are a secondary issue when the game itself is unplayable and has no resemblance to any Competitive format in TF2 or other games.

The game becomes unplayable when you have a tier that consists of both players that just installed the game and veterans.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51275605] Crossbow expands Medic's role and skill ceiling to the point where it's the only primary used in Competitive play and one of the best in the game overall. Meanwhile, Ambassador requires extra skill to use and gives Spy some distance picking ability (but not a lot- 102 isn't going to onehit anybody at full health, there's a full second between headshots, and the weapon is outclassed by stock Revolver at close/medium range in DPS with less effort required on the Revolver's part). [/QUOTE] I always found this really odd. The Crusader's Crossbow is one of the most blatant flat upgrade weapons in the game. Its so insanely better than any syringe gun that it might as well just be stock. Yet its only been buffed. Not that I'm complaining, I fucking love that thing and I think everyone does. [QUOTE=Fluury;51275669]The game becomes unplayable when you have a tier that consists of both players that just installed the game and veterans.[/QUOTE] Its not helping that those veterans who play competitively (real comp not matchmaking) play the game entirely differently than the average person does. TF2 has the biggest disconnect between tourneys and Casual play I have ever seen, and valve seems to be too afraid to pick a side and go with it they ended up trying to do both and ended up just pissing everyone off.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51275772]I always found this really odd. The Crusader's Crossbow is one of the most blatant flat upgrade weapons in the game. Its so insanely better than any syringe gun that it might as well just be stock. Yet its only been buffed.[/QUOTE] imo, I've always thought that Crossbow [I]should[/I] be stock, because it just makes a lot more sense for the Medic and adds a level of much-needed mechanical skill to his play. I also think a lot of stock melees/secondaries are underdesigned, for that matter. Shotgun is redundant on Heavy, for instance (making Sandvich the far better option), and most stock melees function identically between classes. I feel like if the dev team were to start developing the game with an idea of the unlocks that would one day come to it, we'd have a lot of stock melees and secondaries replaced with their unlock counterparts. Powerjack/Axe on Pyro to establish a day-1 mobility/combo playstyle, Crossbow on Medic to facillitate distance heals, Sandvich on Heavy, etc.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51275772]I always found this really odd. The Crusader's Crossbow is one of the most blatant flat upgrade weapons in the game. Its so insanely better than any syringe gun that it might as well just be stock. Yet its only been buffed. Not that I'm complaining, I fucking love that thing and I think everyone does. Its not helping that those veterans who play competitively (real comp not matchmaking) play the game entirely differently than the average person does. TF2 has the biggest disconnect between tourneys and Casual play I have ever seen, and valve seems to be too afraid to pick a side and go with it they ended up trying to do both and ended up just pissing everyone off.[/QUOTE] As much as I love the crossbow (and by God do I love it) I still find myself using syringe guns in pubs where I can't depend on my team to defend me properly. So, y'know, the sort of situations I probably shouldn't torture myself by playing Medic in. :v:

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51275872]As much as I love the crossbow (and by God do I love it) I still find myself using syringe guns in pubs where I can't depend on my team to defend me properly. So, y'know, the sort of situations I probably shouldn't torture myself by playing Medic in. :v:[/QUOTE] If you get good enough with crossbow aim you can use it for self defense as well. I honestly find it easier to hit with than Syringe guns.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51275825]Shotgun is redundant on Heavy[/QUOTE] but you're wrong, shotgun was originally intended for when spinning up would leave you exposed and slow, especially against snipers and spies who specifically wait for you to spin up so you can't fight back, and the minigun nerf back in LaW only made the shotgun more useful due to you having to be firing and spun up for a whole second just to do full damage. also the sandvich becomes much less useful once you actually pinpoint all the medkit spots on a map

[QUOTE=Oizen;51275887]If you get good enough with crossbow aim you can use it for self defense as well. I honestly find it easier to hit with than Syringe guns.[/QUOTE] Oh yes, I'm perfectly good at aiming with it, it just doesn't have the raw up-close power of the needles. While the crossbow can make light classes wary of approaching you, I find a spray of needles will keep heavier enemies away from you too.

[QUOTE=rolfum;51275902]but you're wrong, shotgun was originally intended for when spinning up would leave you exposed and slow, especially against snipers and spies who specifically wait for you to spin up so you can't fight back, and the minigun nerf back in LaW only made the shotgun more useful due to you having to be firing and spun up for a whole second just to do full damage. also the sandvich becomes much less useful once you actually pinpoint all the medkit spots on a map[/QUOTE] I don't really see how you'd be unable to fight against a Spy while revved up. Unless they're ambassador sniping or something. Plus I always thought the sandvich was more a utility tool for keeping your medic alive more than keeping your own health up.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51275918]I don't really see how you'd be unable to fight against a Spy while revved up. Unless they're ambassador sniping or something. Plus I always thought the sandvich was more a utility tool for keeping your medic alive more than keeping your own health up.[/QUOTE] from my experience against spies, cocky spies will actually run right up to you with a knife and try to trickstab you when you spin up, which with valve's wonky as fuck hit detection, works more often than I'd like to admit, and the spy could also just run away before you get spun up, which also happens way too often

[QUOTE=Contra132;51275605] Crossbow expands Medic's role and skill ceiling to the point where it's the only primary used in Competitive play and one of the best in the game overall. Meanwhile, Ambassador requires extra skill to use and gives Spy some distance picking ability (but not a lot- 102 isn't going to onehit anybody at full health, there's a full second between headshots, and the weapon is outclassed by stock Revolver at close/medium range in DPS with less effort required on the Revolver's part). Yes, Spy being able to headshot means he has something in common with Sniper, but both are pick classes and Sniper is far better suited for the job, with 150 damage quickscopes, up to 450 damage headshots, the ability to actually scope so you aren't aiming at individual pixels at range. Additionally, Sniper's entire kit is made for a ranged class- not Spy, who remains most effective in close quarters. Ambassador only adds to Spy's design, in my opinion. It can expand his role in the right hands, with trade-offs regardless of skill level. While these trade-offs are mitigated at higher levels of play, Revolver still has its place in the hands of people with the aim required to use Ambassador effectively (especially post-pick survival fights or quick cleanups) and until its user is able to hit consistent headshots, Ambassador is a downgrade in the hands of most Spies using it. [/QUOTE] No, the Medic's role is "healing". There are no other healers in the game. There isn't such a thing as "short range healing". The Crossbow is different from the Ambassador because it does what the class already did. It also gives him zero of the side effects the Sniper's scope have, with full movement enabled, full view, and no charge needed. Skill level needed is never an excuse - it's almost a complete upgrade from stock and decimates 125 hp classes because you don't even need to wait for a second headshot. I'd be a lot more okay with it if it was a mid-range weapon that would allow Spies to fight with headshots close by, and disabling its long range, which makes no real sense and has an awfully dumb synergy with the Dead Ringer. It's more a problem with how the game handles its headshots (they're crits, and don't have falloff). Typing this gave me a massive case of deja vu, I think we discussed this thing already and didn't really find common ground then and probably won't now, so I'll leave it at that.

[QUOTE=rolfum;51275902]but you're wrong, shotgun was originally intended for when spinning up would leave you exposed and slow, especially against snipers and spies who specifically wait for you to spin up so you can't fight back, and the minigun nerf back in LaW only made the shotgun more useful due to you having to be firing and spun up for a whole second just to do full damage.[/QUOTE] The minigun still out-DPSes shotgun, and Heavy is still fairly large and slow with a shotgun. It doesn't make enough of a difference to justify using it most of the time- there's a reason no Heavy in Competitive play runs shotgun over sandvich. [QUOTE]also the sandvich becomes much less useful once you actually pinpoint all the medkit spots on a map[/QUOTE] That's just outright wrong. It becomes [I]more[/I] useful. The Sandvich isn't about self-healing, it's about passing that support capability to others, especially Medics. For self-healing, it does make Heavy slightly more independent, but not by a whole lot.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51275924]No, the Medic's role is "healing". There are no other healers in the game. There isn't such a thing as "short range healing".[/QUOTE] [t]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yZqskKgLmhA/maxresdefault.jpg[/t]

Yeah, the shotgun on Heavy isn't bad, but the Sandvich is such a crazy useful unlock that it kind of outclasses it in every regard. [editline]29th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Oizen;51275934][t]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yZqskKgLmhA/maxresdefault.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] Lol, fair enough. I suppose it's combat healing rather than Engie's funny-box-healing.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51275924]Skill level needed is never an excuse it's almost a complete upgrade from stock and decimates 125 hp classes because you don't even need to wait for a second headshot.[/QUOTE] By that logic, Sniper and, say, Direct Hit Soldier should dominate the game. Snipers and the Direct Hit at max power and accuracy should shut down just about everything in the game, but even at a high level, they don't, because consistency and reliability is a damn sight different from potential. No Amby Spy is running around with 100% Amby accuracy and dominating entire games, especially not in Competitive. You're speaking as if Ambassador isn't a straight downgrade in the hands of most Spies (it is) and if it's a straight upgrade in the hands of experienced Spies (it's not). Additionally, there's still a firing speed and accuracy penalty. If it was a long-ranged headshot, you aren't hitting them again before the cooldown ends. Pretending Spy is this all-powerful God with an Ambassador is a ridiculous assertation that I don't understand why you keep making. [QUOTE]has an awfully dumb synergy with the Dead Ringer. [/QUOTE] do you mean every spy primary? revolver's better for that, too, if you're playing close-range aggressively [QUOTE]Typing this gave me a massive case of deja vu, I think we discussed this thing already and didn't really find common ground then and probably won't now, so I'll leave it at that.[/QUOTE] If you don't want to continue, that's fine. But I insist on arguing these points when I see them. Nobody really speaks for Spy or Spy balance, and I feel like my class and its balance is unfairly treated by most other players, who don't understand the intricacies of Spy or play it at a high enough level to see why, say, the Ambassador is [B][I]not[/I][/B] a straight upgrade.

why doesn't the heavy just have 4 loadout slots including shotgun and lunchbox also adding the ability to switch weapons while revved, something I discussed in here earlier, would make shotgun much more viable for heavy

[QUOTE=Punchy;51275558]Because heavy destroys bombers and slows down the game. same reason quick-fix was such a hot button issue, it was/is just too good at outhealing all the damage done from spam a lot of op weapons aren't inherently op, but they just have unintended side effects that completely change how teams are forced to play. If valve found a way to at the very least rebalance the heavy in such a way it can be worked around then maybe the issue wouldn't be so prominent[/QUOTE] Competitive CS:GO is a slow-paced affair, and that's wildly popular, so I don't understand the argument that Heavy slows down the game. So what?

[QUOTE=Oizen;51275887]If you get good enough with crossbow aim you can use it for self defense as well. I honestly find it easier to hit with than Syringe guns.[/QUOTE] At range maybe, but the closer you are to the medic the easier it is usually to hit people with the Syringe gun. If they're trailing behind you they're even easier to nail. It's always fun to murder snipers though with the crossbow though lol. [QUOTE=Lord Exor;51276079]Competitive CS:GO is a slow-paced affair, and that's wildly popular, so I don't understand the argument that Heavy slows down the game. So what?[/QUOTE] Taking a guess, it's because when you get a taste of faster paced TF2 verses slower paced TF2. The faster paced wins due to it just being more exciting in the long run. While CS:GO is slower paced, it has no option to speed things up perhaps to compare wither one is preferred over the other. Faster paced matches also tend to be more exciting and eventual. It gets the Adrenalin pumping for sure. A lot of games that have a tournament scene often frown upon anything that slows down or stalls games from what I've seen.

And yet, anomalously, CS:GO seems to be vastly appealing to a large demographic, so I'm not entirely certain that a more sluggish game is going to turn away spectators. And to be quite frank, the overwhelming prominence of four of the nine classes certainly doesn't help in sparking and maintaining interest when so much of the game is marginalized.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51275924]No, the Medic's role is "healing". There are no other healers in the game. There isn't such a thing as "short range healing". [/QUOTE] [IMG]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/59/Lvl1dispenser.png/150px-Lvl1dispenser.png?t=20120310204334[/IMG] [IMG]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/04/Soldier_Concheror.png/250px-Soldier_Concheror.png?t=20141231151029[/IMG] [IMG]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/df/Sandvichplate.png/476px-Sandvichplate.png?t=20111211152344[/IMG]