Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Contra132;51279851]I'd be fine with Heavy being full-time viable in 6s if the way his class is designed now wouldn't break the format. Heavy would need a lot of changes for full-time viability without forcing him + Sniper to be run constantly. I don't know what that solution would be, but I'm not in favor of turning 6s into Prolander [I]just[/I] for fulltime Heavy viability. That is way too big a trade-off, and considering what it'd do game pacing, isn't something I believe would contribute to the scene's growth. I can sympathize with Heavy mains and want to see the class in a better place than it is now without wanting a radical negative change for the comp scene. These things are not mutually exclusive. In real-world sports, perhaps. But is there any popular eSport you can think of with comparable pacing?[/QUOTE] What's the difference? What exactly separates interest in one supposedly dull slog from the other? It being an athletic event? I doubt even a vile full-time Heavy would force a game into overtime comparable with the painfully sluggish hours of baseball. As for Heavy versus Heavy, I find the encounter to be far more satisfying than any other ditto due to how brisk and uncomplicated they are. I have no desire to engage in a prolonged or arduous 1v1 ditto.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51279883]Sounds like you want him to lose the Minigun. Just remove all his primaries. They're [I]overpowered.[/I] They beat bombers to easily! They keep the medic from dying! OVERPOWERED! Or maybe we ought to reduce his health to 150! That way, he'll always die to 3 pipes or rockets taking overheal into account, and without overheal, he can always be oneshotted by a Sniper without a charge![/QUOTE] That's not what I'm saying. Those changes would be too severe. But if you [I]were[/I] to nerf those aspects of Heavy to make him less game-breaking in 6s, decreasing minigun's knockback on aerial targets and decreasing overheal (without decreasing base health) would both be fine solutions without being overly heavy-handed. Roamers and Scouts would still be able to be denied by the Heavy, but wouldn't be completely shut down. Provided he has great tracking aim, the Roamer would have to have excellent movement to prevent being killed before he's able to make a pick.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51279868] Really hoping the pyro and heavy updates [B]Valve[/B] is promising us does push them in the right direction. [/QUOTE] Note the bolded. We've already lost.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51279911]That's not what I'm saying. Those changes would be too severe. But if you [I]were[/I] to nerf those aspects of Heavy to make him less game-breaking in 6s, decreasing minigun's knockback on aerial targets and decreasing overheal (without decreasing base health) would both be fine solutions without being overly heavy-handed. Roamers and Scouts would still be able to be denied by the Heavy, but wouldn't be completely shut down. Provided he has great tracking aim, the Roamer would have to have excellent movement to prevent being killed before he's able to make a pick.[/QUOTE] So you want even more Heavy nerfs?

[QUOTE=Contra132;51279911]That's not what I'm saying. Those changes would be too severe. But if you [I]were[/I] to nerf those aspects of Heavy to make him less game-breaking in 6s, decreasing minigun's knockback on aerial targets and decreasing overheal (without decreasing base health) would both be fine solutions without being overly heavy-handed.[/QUOTE] A nerf to aerial knockback would achieve nothing, as Heavy doesn't need aerial knockback on his Minigun. A bomber will die if he bombs at a Heavy that is aware of him, no matter what. If you nerf Heavy's overheal, you should nerf the overheal percentage of every class for consistency. And nerf Sniper's full-charge headshot damage.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51279885]What's the difference? What exactly separates interest in one supposedly dull slog from the other? It being an athletic event? I doubt even a vile full-time Heavy would force a game into overtime comparable with the painfully sluggish hours of baseball.[/QUOTE] Do you watch baseball or golf? I sure fucking don't. I find video games and people playing them at a competitive level [I]way[/I] more interesting and enjoyable to watch than traditional sports. The thing that seperates interest is what already separates the players of these two different forms of gaming. The viewers of those sports have no interest in eSports, and the viewers of eSports have no interest in those sports, either. They're totally separate audiences. To be a successful eSport, we need pacing and strategic depth comparable to CSGO or Dota. I believe 6s already is that format, but it still needs some key changes (namely to the 5cp format to make it faster and incentivize pushes more in longer games). I'd also love for Pyro and Heavy to get some changes to help them better fit in 6s as a replacement for a Scout or a Pocket Soldier.

Your suggestions were flat out nerfs for Heavy.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51279942]Your suggestions were flat out nerfs for Heavy.[/QUOTE] He's thinking the way Valve would.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51279926]So you want even more Heavy nerfs?[/QUOTE] Not necessarily. I was just approaching those nerfs in a way that wasn't completely hyperbolic. I'm still in favor of reverting the Love and War nerfs to encourage skilled Heavy play. [QUOTE=Blackavar;51279935]Heavy doesn't need aerial knockback on his Minigun. A bomber will die if he bombs at a Heavy that is aware of him, no matter what.[/QUOTE] Knockback is the primary issue with Heavy denying bombers. Heavy with full damage and accuracy can still deny a bomber, yes (and that's fine in my opinion) but a bomber could just as easily counter that with better air-strafing and positioning. A knockback nerf makes that engagement much less one-sided and much more interesting on both ends, imo. [QUOTE]If you nerf Heavy's overheal, you should nerf the overheal percentage of every class for consistency. And nerf Sniper's full-charge headshot damage.[/QUOTE] Overheal on other classes, I disagree. I'd say other classes are fine, except perhaps Soldier with weapons that boost base health. In my opinion weapons that boost base health shouldn't boost overheal. Nefing Sniper's full-charge headshot damage would be fine, though. It'd probably change how his charge scales over time, but I'm totally cool with that because Sniper is a very powerful class as it is.

Heavy wasn't spectacular even before the L&W nerfs, which is why their inclusion was so disheartening.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51279957]I'm still in favor of reverting the Love and War nerfs to encourage skilled Heavy play.[/QUOTE] Heavy wasn't viable before then, either. What else do you think should be done to the Heavy so that he can exist in more places than last?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51279976]Heavy wasn't viable before then, either. What else do you think should be done to the Heavy so that he can exist in more places than last?[/QUOTE] I have to go for a bit, but that's actually a very interesting question. I'll be back later to discuss it with you.

Any flat-out Heavy buff would end up being a catastrophe for the usual Valve Pubs, which most of the playerbase is in. I'd suggest [I]heavy[/I] changes, might wanna call it a small rework, to make him anything but the Last-Machine, but we'll see what Valve will pull out of their hats next year for Heavy.

[QUOTE=Fluury;51280010]Any flat-out Heavy buff would end up being a catastrophe for the usual Valve Pubs, which most of the playerbase is in.[/QUOTE] This will always be irrelevant. A while back I complained about the ultra-buffed Phlogistinator in pubs, but it was still unviable in competitive because it's pretty easy to see the crits coming and get out of there. If Pyro as a class were more able to get close to players (beta detonator perhaps), the Phlogistinator might be viable.

I think we all know what happens when you mess with natural knockbacks very bad things happen don't do it

Heavy is overpowered in the 6s format. Heavy is underpowered in the regular tf2 format. 6s is nothing like the game 99% of tf2 players play.

what about the eviction notice?

[QUOTE=Oizen;51280148]Heavy is overpowered in the 6s format. Heavy is underpowered in the regular tf2 format. 6s is nothing like the game 99% of tf2 players play.[/QUOTE] Not really. 6s streamlines class roles into where they are most effective and has most of the same mechanics and dynamics intact. With smaller teams, not all classes can be run at the same time, and with a focus on fast-paced gameplay, high-mobility attackers are prioritized in most situations while offclasses and defensive classes are prioritized when defending 2nd/last points. Look at pubs. Would you rather join an attacking team with 3 Engineers, 3 Snipers and 3 Spies, or would you join one with 3 Scouts, 3 Soldiers and 3 Demomen? "Generalists" are still generalists in the main game, too. Streamlining the game with less players and a focus on a fast pace means that the classes best for pushing are going to be run when in situations where a team is pushing, and classes best for defending/getting picks to break stalemates are going to be run in the situations where that's needed. [editline]29th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=ikes;51280234]what about the eviction notice?[/QUOTE] Unbanned, actually. May mitigate the problem, haven't tried it out in 6s yet. [editline]29th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Hell-met;51280097]I think we all know what happens when you mess with natural knockbacks very bad things happen don't do it[/QUOTE] Give some background on that statement, I don't remember what you could be talking about. Heavy's knockback [I]is[/I] the primary reason why he's able to so handily shut down the entire flank (3 other players!) in 6s. His damage and accuracy is less of an issue there.

[QUOTE=Fluury;51280010]Any flat-out Heavy buff would end up being a catastrophe for the usual Valve Pubs, which most of the playerbase is in.[/QUOTE] This isnt an argument and I'm so fucking sick of people acting like we should balance weapons around a bunch of braindead 12-year-olds who dont know how to switch weapons or shoot there's a reason competitive fighting game developers develop their games at a competitive level almost exclusively: not only does this make the game more viable competitively as a result, but it encourages players to adapt and learn to counter characters they think are overpowered. I remember in the brawl days I thought Ike was OP cause he did so much damage and was """""fast""""", but the competitive meta would disagree, and over time bad players that though Ike was the hottest most powerful shit would adapt and eventually learn that he's only just good. If people think my Birdie in street fighter is too good and that Birdie is overpowered, they need to learn how to pressure, learn to exploit my lack of wakeup options, learn to exploit my slow normals and situational specials. every game that wants to be taken seriously in a competitive format should ALWAYS balance their weapons with COMPETITIVE FORMATS in mind. bad players will adapt, and being faced with something that seems "OP" in a pub will encourage players to learn the weaknesses of that weapon and the metagame surrounding it. There will be a net gain and increase in average player skill almost certainly. this "balance with pubs in mind" mindset is so regressive and prevents any real positive change. this is what's keeping heavy in the shitter and it's why he will never be viable.

[QUOTE=ikes;51280254]This isnt an argument and I'm so fucking sick of people acting like we should balance weapons around a bunch of braindead 12-year-olds who dont know how to switch weapons or shoot there's a reason competitive fighting game developers develop their games at a competitive level almost exclusively: not only does this make the game more viable competitively as a result, but it encourages players to adapt and learn to counter characters they think are overpowered. I remember in the brawl days I thought Ike was OP cause he did so much damage and was """""fast""""", but the competitive meta would disagree, and over time bad players that though Ike was the hottest most powerful shit would adapt and eventually learn that he's only just good. If people think my Birdie in street fighter is too good and that Birdie is overpowered, they need to learn how to pressure, learn to exploit my lack of wakeup options, learn to exploit my slow normals and situational specials. every game that wants to be taken seriously in a competitive format should ALWAYS balance their weapons with COMPETITIVE FORMATS in mind. bad players will adapt, and being faced with something that seems "OP" in a pub will encourage players to learn the weaknesses of that weapon and the metagame surrounding it. There will be a net gain and increase in average player skill almost certainly.[/QUOTE] Here is the thing, playing Fighters competitively and casually is not that different - it's the same deal. Meanwhile in TF2 - there is a massive difference. Casual Valve Pubs and LAN 6s couldnt be more different, and focusing balance on either will only result in Chaos. Basically ; They will have to find a middle-ground. Either way, Heavy is not underpowered at all.

Heavy shooting down jumpers isn't a problem at all in 6s, it's just that he has massive health and has too little mobility (even with the GRU or whip) that he slows the game hella down. No-one likes that. He still sees occasional defensive use, just like how Engineer, Spy, Pyro and Sniper fill a niche every once in a while. That's completely fine, it's not like he doesn't exist. The gamemode doesn't need to accommodate everyone equally and no-one cares to do that. Prolander is awful. Just accept that 6v6 is a gimmicky setup with rules for only a small subset of maps while the rest of the game generally has way more people involved and a much larger variety of gameplay modes. Stop trying to take 6v6 as some sort of defining thing for "balance", because it isn't balanced, never pretended to be, and won't ever be.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51280239]Heavy's knockback [I]is[/I] the primary reason why he's able to so handily shut down the entire flank (3 other players!) in 6s. His damage and accuracy is less of an issue there.[/QUOTE] 6s relies around ubers. not jumps. there's airshots for jumps anyway

would the gru be ok if it had no downsides except for a flat reduction in max health? It gives the option to get to the front line faster in exchange for less holding power once there.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51280312]6s relies around ubers. not jumps. there's airshots for jumps anyway[/QUOTE] Heavy's high knockback on his minigun shuts down jumpers entirely and makes it extremely difficult for Scouts to close the distance. Reducing knockback but maintaining damage and accuracy will allow Heavy to still fight these classes, but won't make it so horribly one-sided. That's way better for balancing. [QUOTE=Tinker;51280283]Heavy shooting down jumpers isn't a problem at all in 6s, it's just that he has massive health and has too little mobility (even with the GRU or whip) that he slows the game hella down. No-one likes that.[/QUOTE] Actually, Heavy's effectiveness against flank classes (preventing their picks, which enable pushes) is the main reason he slows the game. Making that engagement less one-sided would alleviate that. [QUOTE]He still sees occasional defensive use,[/QUOTE] He and Sniper are the most frequent offclasses when defending last. [QUOTE]just like how Engineer, Spy, Pyro and Sniper fill a niche every once in a while.[/QUOTE] Sniper is a frequently-run offclass. Not 'every once in a while'. All of the 'offclasses' see usage during stalemates/last defenses, but Spy and Pyro see the least usage. Sniper and Heavy see the most of them. [QUOTE]That's completely fine, it's not like he doesn't exist. The gamemode doesn't need to accommodate everyone equally and no-one cares to do that. Prolander is awful.[/QUOTE] That's fair. [QUOTE]Just accept that 6v6 is a gimmicky setup with rules for [B]only a small subset of maps[/B] while the rest of the game generally has way more people involved and a much larger variety of gameplay modes.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/List_of_maps"]6s encompasses 5CP and KOTH. 5CP has more maps in the game than any other game mode, followed shortly by KOTH[/URL]. A/D used to be common too. Small subset my ass, stop making shit up. [QUOTE]Stop trying to take 6v6 as some sort of defining thing for "balance", because it isn't balanced, never pretended to be, and won't ever be.[/QUOTE] League 6s is a damn sight better balanced than stock TF2.

[QUOTE=Fluury;51280010]Any flat-out Heavy buff would end up being a catastrophe for the usual Valve Pubs, which most of the playerbase is in. I'd suggest [I]heavy[/I] changes, might wanna call it a small rework, to make him anything but the Last-Machine, but we'll see what Valve will pull out of their hats next year for Heavy.[/QUOTE] Personal belief that balancing should never be done specifically from a pub players perspective because they're far to unreliably to give accurate information on how and why a buff or nerf should be done. Buffs and nerfs need to stay around a high end competitively level, where the people break down how weapons work to best understand everything about them. If the weapons are problematic in pubs, they can on the other hand look into what I call skill index the weapon. Making changings to it to up the skill factor needed to utilize it, while still keeping what the weapon is capable intact. The Phlog is a perfect example of why Valve shouldn't just buff and nerf around pubs. It's nothing short from dumbing down the game...

[QUOTE=Contra132;51280384]Heavy's high knockback on his minigun shuts down jumpers entirely and makes it extremely difficult for Scouts to close the distance. Reducing knockback but maintaining damage and accuracy will allow Heavy to still fight these classes, but won't make it so horribly one-sided. That's way better for balancing. [/QUOTE] this is also a massive buff for him since it prevents opponents from being able to surf away on his bullets into safety. his damage would become so much more consistent in the midrange

[QUOTE=ikes;51280447]this is also a massive buff for him since it prevents opponents from being able to surf away on his bullets into safety. his damage would become so much more consistent in the midrange[/QUOTE] Yup! I feel like that's a pretty good tradeoff for Heavy, imo. Scouts can still jump around to avoid his shots in their engagements and Soldiers won't be halted in the air whenever they jump near a Heavy, but he can still kill them provided he has the aim to keep track of their movement and he gets the buff you mentioned. [editline]29th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51280432]Buffs and nerfs need to stay around a high end competitively level, where the people break down how weapons work to best understand everything about them. If the weapons are problematic in pubs, they can on the other hand look into what I call skill index the weapon. Making changings to it to up the skill factor needed to utilize it, while still keeping what the weapon is capable intact.[/QUOTE] You just reminded me of the status of Dead Ringer and Ambassador, which I always argue about. Very few players give those weapons shit on a high-end competitive level (Sigafoo is the only one I've heard of). Ambassador is a straight downgrade in the hands of at least 80% of Spies using it, but the Dead Ringer could definitely use soe more skill-indexing despite not being overpowered in a competitive setting. How would you guys skill-index Dead Ringer? I'd personally do something like mark the Spy for death if he keeps it out for too long without triggering it, or have the initial 75% damage resist only apply for, say, a second after the watch is pulled out, and steadily decrease as it's kept out. This means to use it as effectively as you do now, you'd have to have a sense for when you're about to be in danger and raise it then, as opposed to always having it raised as a safety blanket, even if you're caught off guard and should rightly be killed for it.

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;51280378]would the gru be ok if it had no downsides except for a flat reduction in max health? It gives the option to get to the front line faster in exchange for less holding power once there.[/QUOTE] I wish it had "Increased damage taken from all sources while equipped" rather than mini-crits, making it more like the Powerjack

[QUOTE=Contra132;51280384] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/List_of_maps"]6s encompasses 5CP and KOTH. 5CP has more maps in the game than any other game mode, followed shortly by KOTH[/URL]. A/D used to be common too. Small subset my ass, stop making shit up. [/QUOTE] Please don't cut up posts like that, just formulate a damn argument rather than making your post look like a teenager on GameFAQs, it's impossible to read. You're mostly arguing semantics here anyway and misinterpreting almost everything else, I didn't really disagree with anything you said except that only 5cp and KOTH is pretty obviously a small subset of the maps TF2 has to offer. Not to mention that it's only another subset of THOSE that's run. This isn't really something controversial. Don't get me wrong: I love 6s, they're fun to watch and to play. But to balance the game around it is ridiculous because it's so unlike anything else in the game.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51280566]Please don't cut up posts like that, just formulate a damn argument rather than making your post look like a teenager on GameFAQs, it's impossible to read. You're mostly arguing semantics here anyway and misinterpreting almost everything else, I didn't really disagree with anything you said except that only 5cp and KOTH is pretty obviously a small subset of the maps TF2 has to offer. Not to mention that it's only another subset of THOSE that's run. This isn't really something controversial. Don't get me wrong: I love 6s, they're fun to watch and to play. But to balance the game around it is ridiculous because it's so unlike anything else in the game.[/QUOTE] Except a vast majority of KOTH and 5CP maps in TF2 have seen usage in 6s? A number of custom maps added to the game were also seen in 6s first? If a format encompasses most of the maps in the game, that's [I]not[/I] a "small subset". Also, the game should absolutely be balanced at a competitive level if TF2 is to have any future as an eSport. I fail to see how 6s is unlike the rest of the game when it really just streamlines what's already there.