Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Contra132;51280606]Except a vast majority of KOTH and 5CP maps in TF2 have seen usage in 6s? A number of custom maps added to the game were also seen in 6s first? If a format encompasses most of the maps in the game, that's [I]not[/I] a "small subset". Also, the game should absolutely be balanced at a competitive level if TF2 is to have any future as an eSport. I fail to see how 6s is unlike the rest of the game when it really just streamlines what's already there.[/QUOTE] It's a small subset of ALL THE MAPS IN THE GAME. This isn't hard to understand. The fact that there's nothing but two modes alone already makes it that, it's 61 maps that aren't against 27 that are those modes, and those maps aren't all played. 6s is pretty much nothing like the rest of the game. Two gamemodes only with small teamsizes isn't anything like any other way people play this game, which ranges from Ultiduo to Hightower to Goldrush to 2fort, almost always with way more people. They can't balance both 6s and everything else at the same time, which is why 6s sees so many bans and restrictions in the first place. And that's completely fine, it's how this format evolved and will continue to be forever.

[QUOTE=Tinker;51280651]It's a small subset of ALL THE MAPS IN THE GAME. This isn't hard to understand. The fact that there's nothing but two modes alone already makes it that, it's 61 maps that aren't against 27 that are those modes, and those maps aren't all played. 6s is pretty much nothing like the rest of the game. Two gamemodes only with small teamsizes isn't anything like any other way people play this game, which ranges from Ultiduo to Hightower to Goldrush to 2fort, almost always with way more people. They can't balance both 6s and everything else at the same time, which is why 6s sees so many bans and restrictions in the first place. And that's completely fine, it's how this format evolved and will continue to be forever.[/QUOTE] Things can be balanced for 6s and still work in pubs/HL. Crit-a-cola, for instance, is overpowered in basically every format, but it's the most problematic in 6s. The weapon itself may just be [[I]critically[/I]] flawed in concept, but I'm sure there's [I]some[/I] way to balance it right. I think the Marking For Death is a step in the right direction. While Heavy may not be overpowered in HL and pubs, applying reasonable rebalancing (like what I proposed with knockback/overheal reduction but a restoration of pre-L&W accuracy and damage) will make him more reasonable to fight in 6s while remaining powerful in pubs, perhaps more. In general, if it's overpowered in competitive, it's worth taking a look at in a pub setting too. Balancing the game around competitive encourages skilled play and makes for a consistent experience, which TF2 needs to ever be taken seriously as an eSport, which I believe is key to its survival.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51280674]Things can be balanced for 6s and still work in pubs/HL. Crit-a-cola, for instance, is overpowered in basically every format, but it's the most problematic in 6s. The weapon itself may just be [[I]critically[/I]] flawed in concept, but I'm sure there's [I]some[/I] way to balance it right. I think the Marking For Death is a step in the right direction. While Heavy may not be overpowered in HL and pubs, applying reasonable rebalancing (like what I proposed with knockback/overheal reduction but a restoration of pre-L&W accuracy and damage) will make him more reasonable to fight in 6s while remaining powerful in pubs, perhaps more. In general, if it's overpowered in competitive, it's worth taking a look at in a pub setting too. Balancing the game around competitive encourages skilled play and makes for a consistent experience, which TF2 needs to ever be taken seriously as an eSport, which I believe is key to its survival.[/QUOTE] I'm sure it's possible, but with how bloated the game is at this point with 5 or more unlocks for every slot for every class that's a gargantuan task which would take massive effort, and I really doubt the TF2 team is up to it (or that the interest is even there). You also have cases like the Phlog, a weapon that always was pretty crap when playing against decent players, including during its much maligned buff. If Valve had balanced around 6s it wouldn't have been changed at all because it had zero impact there and could use even more buffs to make it interesting to use. Current competitive TF2 just bans weapons, which is fine, that's what we're used to. It doesn't prevent any "being taken seriously as an eSport", whatever that means. Plenty of eSports ban a billion things in their games, or even got so far that the devs put in a ban system for them. You could argue that's a weakness (the need to ban inherently means something is imbalanced), but it's very often the best solution.

[QUOTE=Doctor Hunt;51280550]I wish it had "Increased damage taken from all sources while equipped" rather than mini-crits, making it more like the Powerjack[/QUOTE] That would actually be a buff to GRU if it only kicked in when his mitts were out... IT's already one of the best melee's for heavy as is... The only one that's even close to rivaling it is Fists of Steal... No is an obvious answer to that... I actually am for a maximum health reduction on GRU over the worthless mark of death nonsense. But not till after they find a good way to rework heavy into a more enjoyable class over all. Make it a risk vs reward situation. GRU currently on my list of weapons I consider to be a necessary evil, ones that need to be changed, but not till the class it's on is tweaked before hand. [t]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/217689664837140208/A726E3004BACA832C9364FABF97427E03869F047/[/t] Open two spider crates, get unusual Taunt >_> Don't even have the taunt... But now I definitely have enough to get my Merc's Mohawk that I want lol...

[url]http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6[/url] There's only 22 weapons banned in 6s right now. The global whitelist has isolated the most problematic weapons in the game. Only thing I'd add is the HL Razorback ban, which allows snipers to too easily counter their hard counter, and combined with the combo, hold with impunity. Razorback needs some kind of healing or health downside, imo.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51280954][url]http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6[/url] There's only 22 weapons banned in 6s right now. The global whitelist has isolated the most problematic weapons in the game. Only thing I'd add is the HL Razorback ban, which allows snipers to too easily counter their hard counter, and combined with the combo, hold with impunity. Razorback needs some kind of healing or health downside, imo.[/QUOTE] Maybe if razorback denied being overhealed? This one I'm not sure how to approach it to be honest...

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51280976]Maybe if razorback denied being overhealed? This one I'm not sure how to approach it to be honest...[/QUOTE] Yeah, overheal is the main issue. This is more apparent in HL and pubs that in 6s, but let me give one example where the Razorback just fucks the game in Sniper's favor. On KOTH maps, like Product, Sniper can perch on the rock watching point. Typically, the combo will hold behind said rock, which means he's extremely well guarded from flankers and jumpers who would approach him. From this position, he has a sightline on every entryway to the point and to most of the map. To compound on this, the Medic will be rotating overheal in this position. The Sniper will almost never drop below 150 health, so a countersniper quickscoping him isn't an option. The enemy Spy also can't get to him, since none of his guns can do enough damage to kill him while he's overhealed before he dies to the team, and he's well-protected by everyone else. Effectively, the Razorback allows Sniper to counter both of his counters simultaneously with almost no downsides. A Sniper in this position can stay scoped as long as he likes, so people who peek can get insta-150'd or even 450'd. This is especially dangerous for Medics and Snipers. By removing the Razorback (which HL has done this season), Sniper is no longer so overwhelmingly powerful in HL. He needs situational awareness and good positioning to avoid being picked by a Spy now. If the TF Team were to rebalance Razorback, simply removing overheal would be the most elegant solution to prevent Snipers from camping with impunity. Other penalties, like a heal rate reduction, would also be valid considerations.

You know I would probably actually buy a key if it weren't for the phenomenally bullshit "you have to add at least 5 dollars to your steam wallet to buy anything" system.

-snip huh I guess I made a mistake whoopsie-

Has anyone seen this yet? [url]https://steamdb.info/app/232250/[/url] It doesn't seem to be publicly available, though it says there is a public branch. I'm not too sure if it means anything, though my best guess is that it's just what Valve uses to test their server architecture stuff for official servers. Can anyone dig a little deeper into this if it's of any significance?

232250 is the appid for the tf2 dedicated server. thats how you set one up. Source, taken off my dedicated box just for you a second ago [t]http://i.imgur.com/BFxp2Zq.png[/t] This appid is specified in valve devwiki "setting up a dedicated server" tutorial, too. Speaking of balancing - Heavy is a tough case for Valve as they get contradicting data. In 6s, heavy is only a last defense pick In HL, he is run but doesnt make big plays And then you have pubs... One tryhard like me, one medic up his ass, and a godlike killstreak on the scoreboard and cheat-worthy KDR. Valve can choose to appeal to the pubber community (majority that spends money on the game which is Valve's ultimate goal), or please the comp community making pubs unplayable if heavy gets buffed. Someone will be angry and someone will curse Valve for their choice. No wonder they're delaying the backlash

[QUOTE=rolfum;51281149]actually if you go into the mann co store, check out and add funds from there, you can add exactly how much you need for the items from there proof for you disagreers [t]http://i.imgur.com/sI6Y2hc.png[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/FwUWz0w.png[/t][/QUOTE] That only works if it's above 5 dollars, anything below 5 dollars requires a 5 dollar minimal.

[QUOTE=rolfum;51281149]actually if you go into the mann co store, check out and add funds from there, you can add exactly how much you need for the items from there proof for you disagreers [t]http://i.imgur.com/sI6Y2hc.png[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/FwUWz0w.png[/t][/QUOTE] Only works for at least five of the currency. Higher amounts can be custom, and inputted manually by opening the Console (Ctrl Shift K in firefox) and typing "submitAddFunds(X)" where X is the amount you want to add in the currency multiplied by 100. 5$ would be 500, 7.39 would be 739 etc

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51280844]That would actually be a buff to GRU if it only kicked in when his mitts were out... IT's already one of the best melee's for heavy as is... The only one that's even close to rivaling it is Fists of Steal... No is an obvious answer to that... I actually am for a maximum health reduction on GRU over the worthless mark of death nonsense. But not till after they find a good way to rework heavy into a more enjoyable class over all. Make it a risk vs reward situation. GRU currently on my list of weapons I consider to be a necessary evil, ones that need to be changed, but not till the class it's on is tweaked before hand. [t]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/217689664837140208/A726E3004BACA832C9364FABF97427E03869F047/[/t] Open two spider crates, get unusual Taunt >_> Don't even have the taunt... But now I definitely have enough to get my Merc's Mohawk that I want lol...[/QUOTE] What is or isn't enjoyable is remarkably subjective. If Heavy is changed too much, you risk alienating the players that have already found Heavy satisfying to play as for years. And as far as Heavies and Medics dominating pubs--that's not going to happen as often the second you add competent players to the mix. A single Demoman can rough up a Heavy+Medic, and if the Demoman has a Medic of his own, forget about it, the Heavy is either finished or rendered feckless. There are also a plenitude of unlockable weapons that you'll see fielded in a pub that counter Heavy fairly hard. The latter problem isn't as much of an issue in competitive due to weapon bans and viability, but pub players are undeterred from using them.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51281265]And as far as Heavies and Medics dominating pubs--that's not going to happen as often the second you add competent players to the mix.[/QUOTE] Too bad that valve's matchmaking will add those competent players to team that already has medic+heavy combo.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51281265]What is or isn't enjoyable is remarkably subjective. If Heavy is changed too much, you risk alienating the players that have already found Heavy satisfying to play as for years. And as far as Heavies and Medics dominating pubs--that's not going to happen as often the second you add competent players to the mix. A single Demoman can rough up a Heavy+Medic, and if the Demoman has a Medic of his own, forget about it, the Heavy is either finished or rendered feckless. There are also a plenitude of unlockable weapons that you'll see fielded in a pub that counter Heavy fairly hard. The latter problem isn't as much of an issue in competitive due to weapon bans and viability, but pub players are undeterred from using them.[/QUOTE] Without changes, I don't expect him to every be buffed either the way people want him too.

I don't think that the heavy is really that bad... I think the real problem is that is not very fun or interesting to play as him, the same thing happened with pyro before he got deflecting, he was both boring and awful, having a pyro in your team was basically a wasted space. Heavy need something like that, I can't tell what exactly, but, something, anything... I mean, scout has double jumps, solly and demo rocket/stickyjumping, pyro airblast, engineer leveling up his buildings, medic ubers, sniper headshots and spy cloak and one shot kills... what does the heavy has? Nothing.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51281425]Without changes, I don't expect him to every be buffed either the way people want him too.[/QUOTE] So you're saying he deserved the L&W nerf?

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51281549]So you're saying he deserved the L&W nerf?[/QUOTE] Where did you get that from? I never said he deserved any of his nerfs... I just stated that I don't believe Valve will allow heavy to get buffed if he isn't reworked, preferably to be a more enjoyable class to play, play against and watch. The few times he got to where I felt he was the most powerful he's ever been, the community as a whole slams Valve with complaints about him because of how matches turned into who shat out the most heavies to win lol and it heavily noted to be a very boring experience over all dealing with it. During the days after the Tomislav original release the game was so god damn boring to play with all the heavies everywhere...

There are some pretty fun tactics to playing heavy. I really enjoy jumping around corners to ambush people as heavy. In general his movement limitations mean you have to be really efficient with the mobility you do have and airstrafing actually becomes pretty important, which feels fun to me when I'm playing him. Actually one part of the rampup nerf that I actually liked was that it meant you could get this feeling of holding a defensive position with a damage boost when you kept laying supressing fire. Basically I like the gameplay that the nerf could encourage, but making it a nerf meant that you had to play like that all the time just to keep the same damage output that he had before. If they made it a buff, where he had the same damage output when not ramped up, but extra damage when he did ramp up, that would have been cool. You could prefire to get a defensive boost, but you don't have to do that all the time because you still have good damage. Prefiring would be a situational defensive option. Or it could be like a small nerf to base damage and a small buff to damage after ramped up.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51281553]Where did you get that from? I never said he deserved any of his nerfs... I just stated that I don't believe Valve will allow heavy to get buffed if he isn't reworked, preferably to be a more enjoyable class to play, play against and watch. The few times he got to where I felt he was the most powerful he's ever been, the community as a whole slams Valve with complaints about him because of how matches turned into who shat out the most heavies to win lol and it heavily noted to be a very boring experience over all dealing with it. During the days after the Tomislav original release the game was so god damn boring to play with all the heavies everywhere...[/QUOTE] And you're still saying Heavy is boring as if it's unequivocal fact. And to fight? He's one of the easiest classes to handle, and I'd rather fight him with any class over Sniper or Scout any day.

heavy isn't boring unless you play him wrong

*snip*

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51281583]And you're still saying Heavy is boring as if it's unequivocal fact. And to fight? He's one of the easiest classes to handle, and I'd rather fight him with any class over Sniper or Scout any day.[/QUOTE] I've never seen anyone ever say watching two heavies MGE was exciting. It's mostly because of how overly simple his design is. Which is why when he feels powerful from unlocks and stuff, he starts dominating the field. I believe it's mostly because his primary, the only real skill you require from using the miniguns is just tracking the enemy to keep your cross hairs on them at all times. About every other skill heavy needs to know to be efficient are all skills that pretty much every other class also has to do. How he plays also never really changes up any, he doesn't really have any good verity in the middle of fights. This is why I feel he becomes stales super quickly and unenjoyable to watch / play and play against. I can only speak for myself now, but I've barely ever see anyone say "oh man, look at that heavy go!". Hell, I've most times when a heavy accomplishes anything you often just see people complain and call out "oh, you raged heavy" or some other nonsense comment. This includes watching highland feeds, when heavy got one the comments were full of things like "eh, it's just a heavy. Who the fuck cares?" lol. If I'm wrong though and he is exciting. I'm sure you have some actual frag clips, montages or highland feeds to showcase these events would you kindly? MGE heavies could work. I'm interested to see these exciting "epic" moments you insist exist. I mean, this would probably be the absolute easiest way to sway my opinion.

The problem with Heavy MGEs as they are now is that whoever spins up first keeps the damage ramp-up throughout the fight, making it very difficult for the person on the receiving end to get away from it A possible way to get around this would to make both players spawn at different adjacent parts of the arena each time the Heavy gets a kill, since it more accurately simulates what it would be like to run into a enemy Heavy during a match, though it seems a bit contrived to make that only happen if a specific class is being used

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51281599]I've never seen anyone ever say watching two heavies MGE was exciting. It's mostly because of how overly simple his design is. Which is why when he feels powerful from unlocks and stuff, he starts dominating the field. I believe it's mostly because his primary, the only real skill you require from using the miniguns is just tracking the enemy to keep your cross hairs on them at all times. About every other skill heavy needs to know to be efficient are all skills that pretty much every other class also has to do. How he plays also never really changes up any, he doesn't really have any good verity in the middle of fights. This is why I feel he becomes stales super quickly and unenjoyable to watch / play and play against. I can only speak for myself now, but I've barely ever see anyone say "oh man, look at that heavy go!". Hell, I've most times when a heavy accomplishes anything you often just see people complain and call out "oh, you raged heavy" or some other nonsense comment. This includes watching highland feeds, when heavy got one the comments were full of things like "eh, it's just a heavy. Who the fuck cares?" lol. If I'm wrong though and he is exciting. I'm sure you have some actual frag clips, montages or highland feeds to showcase these events would you kindly? MGE heavies could work. I'm interested to see these exciting "epic" moments you insist exist. I mean, this would probably be the absolute easiest way to sway my opinion.[/QUOTE] And Snipers standing still, pointing and clicking is somehow the most thrilling gameplay ever witnessed, huh? Or how about Scout? Shooting people in the back or picking off low health, mostly hapless victims--how enthralling! This is nothing more than argumentum ad populum; I know plenty of people that think Sniper was a mistake in a close-range shooter and that Scout is nothing but a pest, but that doesn't mean anything. Could Heavy use unlocks that switch things up and foster variety? Yes. Does Heavy need a total fundamental rework that unravels everything that made the class tick for nine years just so he can satisfy ADHD ridden gamers? No.

Heavy needs something because heavy doesn't have shit

Heavy's core design is simple due to most classes bearing simple design. Different mechanics, play styles, and options make the classes more interesting. Heavy is generalized as boring considering he lacks class specific techniques and attributes. For instance, Tomigruvich transformed Heavy into a mobile, self sustaining tank. A bit overpowered? Yes. Regardless, this could've been changed into something more balanced, all while making Heavy a more enjoyable class to play for more people. Unfortunately, rather than build on these attributes, or give him a new style of play, he's now the point and click, easy to kill, no options, laughing stock of the game. Heavy can still be an intriguing class to for most when balanced correctly. He doesn't need a total rework, just more options and play styles.

how about u accept that heavy will never be anything more than a slow, boring, low skill ceiling class only useful for defending last instead

[QUOTE=Avvy;51281914]how about u accept that heavy will never be anything more than a slow, boring, low skill ceiling class only useful for defending last instead[/QUOTE] Well I can see why you only have seven Steam friends.