Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=ics;51435426]I don't know if too many people are still around from the old times but does anyone remember when for example a medic got a class update? Everyone was playing medic on both teams. Literally, everyone. Same thing with pyro and other class updates. Those days i like to see once more, so hopefully pyro does get new achievements, weapons and such. Not just nerfs/improvements to existing ones.[/QUOTE] Everyone had to play a ton of medic because you had to get all 36 achievements to get the Ubersaw (until Valve later lowered the requirements).

[QUOTE=Contra132;51434652]because that's about a million times easier said than done, and despite doom and gloom TF2 is an amazing game plagued by a few big issues, not something that needs to be burnt down to start anew this year was pretty shitty but 2015 was one of our most content-dense years of all time (especially in the latter half), and the fact is the game is still receiving far more active support than any other game its age. we get major valve-made updates twice a year, which typically include 3-4 new maps, a plethora of balance changes (typically for the better, with a few classes needing some more attention lately: Heavy and Pyro), and a multitude of feature-additions, my personal favorite being viewmodel minmode. The Smissmass/Pyro update is coming in December- I'd estimate three weeks at the most- and it's already been stated to include a new campaign/contracts alongside Comp Mode improvements and the long-awaited Pyro changes. 2017 is also looking to be a lot better, with the community Jungle update likely to hit in Spring (estimated due to the submission deadline, which ends in January/February, depending on what they meant by "a few months") and the typical Valve-made Summer update to hit sometime in June/July. chances are it'll be our long-awaited Heavy update, too. obviously TF2 has problems and we aren't getting Dota or CS-levels of support, but our game is still alive and well and honestly things can only get better after MyM. I don't know where this cynicism about the state of TF2 is coming from- we've had it quite a lot worse, and it only seems like now that the TF Team is willing to do whatever it takes to bring our game back to its true glory.[/QUOTE] Excuse me, I don't mean to contradict you, but how was 2015 one of the densest content years of all time? In comparison with 2013 it was an improvement, but I fail to grasp how 2015 yielded record results. The Gun Mettle update uncharacteristically delighted me, imbuing me with an ever so slight glimmer of enthusiasm for Valve's efforts. However, they worked to undo that happiness with the arrival of MyM and yet more unwarranted Heavy nerfs that merely served to take away rather than replace in the instance of a potential balance conflict; clearly, Valve has yet to learn.

I'd be more upset about Heavy getting a straight buff than slight nerf to be honest

Something i just feel like i have to mention about the pyro pack coming out. If they are bringing new weapons (most likely just one though) i am slightly worried considering we did have the phlog buff. I dont think we need an another flame thrower or flare gun. Personally hoping for a new shotgun. Just hoping they can get the balancing right.

I just pray its not a "100% Critical Hit for preforming specific action" weapon. Pyro has wayyyy too many of those.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51438966]I just pray its not a "100% Critical Hit for preforming specific action" weapon. Pyro has wayyyy too many of those.[/QUOTE] Backburner, Phlogistinator, Flair gun, Neon Annihilator and Axtinguisher+ Postal Pummeler all crit Burning or wet payers Detonator, Reserve Shooter and Scorch Shot all Mini crit Burning/ airborne players Yeah, we don't need anymore

[QUOTE=Oizen;51438966]I just pray its not a "100% Critical Hit for preforming specific action" weapon. Pyro has wayyyy too many of those.[/QUOTE] relevant: [video]https://youtu.be/1jO-T1ZUN78?t=20[/video]

[QUOTE=Contra132;51439085]relevant: [video]https://youtu.be/1jO-T1ZUN78?t=20[/video][/QUOTE] So accurate that its scary

[QUOTE=lateguy;51438943]Something i just feel like i have to mention about the pyro pack coming out. If they are bringing new weapons (most likely just one though) i am slightly worried considering we did have the phlog buff. I dont think we need an another flame thrower or flare gun. Personally hoping for a new shotgun. Just hoping they can get the balancing right.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure why you think the pyro is going to only get one new weapon, every single blog post that talks about the weapons say weapons not weapon.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;51439210]I'm not sure why you think the pyro is going to only get one new weapon, every single blog post that talks about the weapons say weapons not weapon.[/QUOTE] Mostly because of the balancing problems they usually have. Would not surprise me if they would just make one weapon.

[QUOTE=lateguy;51439323]Mostly because of the balancing problems they usually have. Would not surprise me if they would just make one weapon.[/QUOTE] "Class Pack"

[QUOTE=Fluury;51440106]"Class Pack"[/QUOTE] Cosmetics, balance changes and a weapon. Two if they feel like going crazy. Or is it how i said "pack"?

[QUOTE=lateguy;51440543]Cosmetics, balance changes and a weapon. Two if they feel like going crazy. Or is it how i said "pack"?[/QUOTE] Eh, no. It's pretty much a given we are going to get three - thus, a pack. A set of weapons. Three. They'll count to it.

[QUOTE=Fluury;51440593]Eh, no. It's pretty much a given we are going to get three - thus, a pack. A set of weapons. Three. They'll count to it.[/QUOTE] Hmm... fair enough. And as mentioned earlier, the blogs did say weaponS. Honestly im just kind of losing faith in TF team. So i aint expecting a lot from them.

[QUOTE=lateguy;51440618]Hmm... fair enough. And as mentioned earlier, the blogs did say weaponS. Honestly im just kind of losing faith in TF team. So i aint expecting a lot from them.[/QUOTE] The blog also said "bi-monthly".

-snip-

[B]POLL FOR THE PYRO UPDATE[/B] [url]http://www.strawpoll.me/11756821[/url] I voted YES, because at this point nearly every single weapon does it for pyro.

In my opinion, one of Pyro's key issues is suffering from a lack of mobility without the Powerjack. I'm not in favor of boosting him to Spy/Medic walking speed all around (because his flame range more than compensate for that difference in running speed when chasing), but I feel like you could make a lot of changes to Pyro's base melee capabilities to keep things interesting. Make it where pulling out his melee gives him the Powerjack speed boost + 10% damage vulnerability. Bam, Pyro suddenly has decent rollout mobility without his speed turning his flame range into a nightmare in actual fights. With the actual Powerjack, you could perhaps turn it into a stronger health-steal weapon (+50 health on kill, +15% damage vulnerability when active for a total of 25% damage vulnerability with melee active, making it a risk/reward play) and rebalance his other melees with this in mind. Course, that's just snowballing, and doesn't really address the unfun parts of playing against Pyros (everything crits, airblast always launches you straight upward, regardless of where he's aiming or your current momentum). It does, however, address one of his key issues (reliance on an unlock for mobility) and that's a big step forward.

despite being a really good Idea, I'd really prefer to give him mobility in another way, and for the powerjack, it's still the best melee for the Pyro despite the harsh nerf, I'd really like it to be split up to 2 different weapons, one for speed, and one for health&overheal, because getting that random crit in the face and 75 HP back is always fun

they should increase pyro's health to 200 before making him any faster and see how that helps him

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51437241]Excuse me, I don't mean to contradict you, but how was 2015 one of the densest content years of all time? In comparison with 2013 it was an improvement, but I fail to grasp how 2015 yielded record results. The Gun Mettle update uncharacteristically delighted me, imbuing me with an ever so slight glimmer of enthusiasm for Valve's efforts.[/QUOTE] between gun mettle, invasion, scream fortress and tough break, we received: *a contract system, encouraging players to try new/different playstyles and weapons *a new uncrating system with rarity tiers easily distinguishable (admittedly: this made uncrating much less rewarding overall) *a weapon-pickup system that added an interesting twist to gameplay- one that's quite useful in certain scenarios if you can think on your feet. this also added ammo boxes spawning with dead players, which may hurt aesthetic but is actually an improvement, gameplay-wise, for the swarms of players who had no idea you could pick up weapons for ammo/metal before. *thorough re-balancing of nearly every weapon in the game, dealing with a few obviously-overpowered customers (OG DR) and rebalancing poor/underused weapons into something more decent (Big Earner is the greatest example that comes to mind here, but Spymain) *A plethora of 11 great community maps added over the course of the latter half of the year. These include such highlights as Suijin, Borneo, Probed, Moonshine, Snowycoast and Highpass. A well-designed map is a great way to add new content to the game, since it doesn't require changing any base mechanics or other mechanics to function properly (like you need with new weapons/rebalances). This effectively keeps the game feeling fresh with new sights and gameplay experiences, even for experienced players. *1 new main-game Valve map, Powerhouse, which utilized and updated the classic Hydro aesthetic, one that hadn't been seen in TF2 for years *1 new Mannpower map (Hellfire, also lol I don't actually care about this one) *A brand-new game mode, PASS Time, which introduced two new maps (these maps are in the current game as Brickyard and Timberlodge, but were made available in 2015) Can't think of a year of TF2 that added nearly as much content alongside massive (needed) balance changes and new gameplay changes. [quote]However, they worked to undo that happiness with the arrival of MyM and yet more unwarranted Heavy nerfs that merely served to take away rather than replace in the instance of a potential balance conflict; clearly, Valve has yet to learn.[/QUOTE] MyM was in 2016. Has nothing to do with my initial comment, which was about how much 2015 added to the game and how 2017 is looking to learn from it. I even acknowledged that this year kind of blew, which makes the statement redundant anyways. I'm sorry about your Heavy nerfs, as always, but that point has absolutely nothing to do with the main point I made: that 2015 was an incredibly great, content-dense year for TF2.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51442416]Pyro melee speed buff [/QUOTE] Would a similar speed boost be balanced on heavy as well? That would lessen his dependence on the GRU for rollouts and moving up. It wouldn't be much faster, maybe around the speed boost the EN gives when active. The FOS could be rebalanced to not give the speed boost and the current weapon switch penalty on them could be removed. The gru could still boost his speed further, but instead of minicrits or damage over time when active, it could have a reduced max health or overheal as a passive downside. Also, would it be balanced to give the speed boost (or a smaller boost) to his secondaries too? Retreating with the shotgun is more viable then, and slightly loosens the monopoly the sandvich has on the secondary slot. Another suggestion but is completely unrelated: give the equalizer a weapon switch bonus that increases as health goes down. Then, the high damage melee swings are less risky than they are now. My apologies for making this into the weapon rebalance thread.

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;51442518]Would a similar speed boost be balanced on heavy as well? That would lessen his dependence on the GRU for rollouts and moving up. It wouldn't be much faster, maybe around the speed boost the EN gives when active. The FOS could be rebalanced to not give the speed boost and the current weapon switch penalty on them could be removed. The gru could still boost his speed further, but instead of minicrits or damage over time when active, it could have a reduced max health or overheal as a passive downside.[/QUOTE] That's a very interesting proposal, actually. In 6s, giving Heavy too much mobility greatly slows game-pacing and class-picking variety through a forced Sniper/Heavy fulltime meta. This is why the GRU is banned in 6s (though the Eviction Notice isn't)- it makes Heavy an overpowering source that the game is forced to slow to be focused around. The Eviction Notice isn't banned right now, and giving Heavy that speed when he's not carrying his primary could help make him a bit more viable in those scenarios without being outright broken. Hell, the GRU rework sounds great too: reducing overheal/max health in exchange for the fast rollout speed makes him much less of the almighty damage sponge he can be in low playercount scenarios. [quote]Also, would it be balanced to give the speed boost (or a smaller boost) to his secondaries too? Retreating with the shotgun is more viable then, and slightly loosens the monopoly the sandvich has on the secondary slot.[/quote] That...actually sounds pretty fine, actually. Giving Heavy a base speed boost when he isn't carrying his primary makes sense both balance-wise and game-wise, since his Minigun magically disappears when he isn't holding it and it stands to reason that that's where most of his weight comes from. Heavy needs better secondaries in general, honestly. [QUOTE]Another suggestion but is completely unrelated: give the equalizer a weapon switch bonus that increases as health goes down. Then, the high damage melee swings are less risky than they are now.[/QUOTE] Sounds good as well. Current Equalizer is outright garbage- all the good in that weapon went to Escape Plan. [editline]28th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=rolfum;51442486]they should increase pyro's health to 200 before making him any faster and see how that helps him[/QUOTE] mobility is a bigger restricting factor for Pyro, imo, especially in 6s

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;51442518]Would a similar speed boost be balanced on heavy as well? That would lessen his dependence on the GRU for rollouts and moving up. It wouldn't be much faster, maybe around the speed boost the EN gives when active. The FOS could be rebalanced to not give the speed boost and the current weapon switch penalty on them could be removed. The gru could still boost his speed further, but instead of minicrits or damage over time when active, it could have a reduced max health or overheal as a passive downside. Also, would it be balanced to give the speed boost (or a smaller boost) to his secondaries too? Retreating with the shotgun is more viable then, and slightly loosens the monopoly the sandvich has on the secondary slot. Another suggestion but is completely unrelated: give the equalizer a weapon switch bonus that increases as health goes down. Then, the high damage melee swings are less risky than they are now.[/QUOTE] From what I've seen, fists of steel's biggest complaint is tanking damage on a point to try and outlast uber in lower player matches on things like 5 cp maps while covering last for instance. Personally though, I'm not really a big fan of weapons that help a class counter his counters, in this case being the sniper but I honestly never really had a complaint about it. Maybe because he's not using his minigun while running around with the FoS out perhaps? The best starting point though for Fists of Steal though would probably be denying the heavies ability to both capture points and denying the enemy from capturing while he has them out. This way they can still be used as they were intended to be used, which was getting through choke points. Movement speed on heavy is kind of a touch subject though as his slow mobility was an intentional downside to running heavy. He's heavy, he was suppose to be the slowest to getting around. It's like how Demomen and Sniper both have pretty weak close range options. Demomen runs the risk of hurting himself with pills, or he trades off health or something else in order to have a better melee option for instance. But GRU on the other hand has a pretty negatable downside for the huge benefit to heavy. But in a sense I kind of consider a necessary evil for heavy, at least till he gets some better options out there. Personally if he starts getting buffed I'm hoping they're swap out the mark of death with max health reduction when he starts being more viable outside of his nitch. Seems kind of a few minor changes, but I'd like to see Pyro get access to the pain train and have airblast have the ability to remove the effects of both Jarate and Mad Milk if possible.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51442441]despite being a really good Idea, I'd really prefer to give him mobility in another way, and for the powerjack, it's still the best melee for the Pyro despite the harsh nerf, I'd really like it to be split up to 2 different weapons, one for speed, and one for health&overheal, because getting that random crit in the face and 75 HP back is always fun[/QUOTE] give the health stat to the back scratcher and remove the additional HP from health kits I still dont understand why pyro needs a mobility melee, he already travels at default speed.

[QUOTE]*a contract system, encouraging players to try new/different playstyles and weapons [/QUOTE] Which introduced yet another aspect of exclusivity to Valve servers, ravaging communities even further. Moreover, contracts are [I]laughable[/I] and do not constitute gameplay-affecting content. They're tantamount to glorified achievements and aren't very complicated code-wise. [QUOTE]*a new uncrating system with rarity tiers easily distinguishable (admittedly: this made uncrating much less rewarding overall) [/QUOTE] Tiered crates were loaned from a system previously "pioneered" by CS:GO, which again, is nothing but another clever means of procuring profit. I fail to see how this qualifies as meaningful content. [QUOTE]*a weapon-pickup system that added an interesting twist to gameplay- one that's quite useful in certain scenarios if you can think on your feet. this also added ammo boxes spawning with dead players, which may hurt aesthetic but is actually an improvement, gameplay-wise, for the swarms of players who had no idea you could pick up weapons for ammo/metal before. [/QUOTE] Outside of recovering discarded mediguns--a mechanic that didn't exactly endure--this "ingenious" addition is rather easy to discount given how mildly it impacts the game. [QUOTE]*thorough re-balancing of nearly every weapon in the game, dealing with a few obviously-overpowered customers (OG DR) and rebalancing poor/underused weapons into something more decent (Big Earner is the greatest example that comes to mind here, but Spymain)[/QUOTE] My point about the Heavy earlier was meant to illustrate that even if notable balancing is administered during a specific point in the game's lifespan, it does everyone involved a disservice to treat this event as if it occurred in a vacuum. In hindsight, many of the positive changes made were for naught if they're subsequently reversed or overruled at a later date. In addition, Valve continued to ignore several conspicuous lapses in balance that should have been addressed expeditiously. [QUOTE]*A plethora of 11 great community maps added over the course of the latter half of the year. These include such highlights as Suijin, Borneo, Probed, Moonshine, Snowycoast and Highpass. A well-designed map is a great way to add new content to the game, since it doesn't require changing any base mechanics or other mechanics to function properly (like you need with new weapons/rebalances). This effectively keeps the game feeling fresh with new sights and gameplay experiences, even for experienced players.[/QUOTE] In other words, it's another way for Valve to forgo the application of effort on their end. Don't get me wrong, I have no qualms with the addition of maps, but as a veteran of PC gaming, it doesn't strike me as anything significant when said maps could have been played at any time via a download or community server (had Valve not perniciously caused the decimation of community servers). I agree, of course, that mapmakers should be compensated, but that particular point is irrelevant here. [QUOTE]*1 new main-game Valve map, Powerhouse, which utilized and updated the classic Hydro aesthetic, one that hadn't been seen in TF2 for years[/QUOTE] Granted. [QUOTE]*1 new Mannpower map (Hellfire, also lol I don't actually care about this one) [/QUOTE] People care about Mannpower? It seems like a wasteful expenditure of time on their end, and another excuse to ignore pressing matters that impact the game universally. [QUOTE]*A brand-new game mode, PASS Time, which introduced two new maps (these maps are in the current game as Brickyard and Timberlodge, but were made available in 2015)[/QUOTE] You can't credit Valve with this, so it's trivial when used to allay concerns over Valve's incompetence or inaction. [QUOTE]Can't think of a year of TF2 that added nearly as much content alongside massive (needed) balance changes and new gameplay changes.[/QUOTE] 2009-2012 would like to have a word with you.

This maybe off-topic, but I really want a rocket launcher that reloads faster.

The Beggar's Bazooka reloads faster.

An unpopular opinion as I know how much it was hated by players in Casual Matchmaking. I honestly feel this game needs penalties back for abandoners to actually keep casual matches from getting so lopsided. Just not as severe as it was before hand. But it might actually fix the problem in the first place, something that things like team scramble and auto-balance never did by deterring people from leaving in the first place. Give people a few times where they can leave just dandy, this way people who might run into an emergency and have to leave can freely leave just fine without harm. But people who constantly leave within very short time frame get a cool down before they can come back, like 5 to 10 minutes tops, or it will only allow you to rejoin the match you just left. Something like that. If your leaving in such several games in very short time frames you probably need a break to cool off anyway. Get a glass of water or something, listen to music, whatever it is to cool off before jumping back in. I'll probably get flak for this, but people leaving in the first place is the actual cause of lopsided matches in the first place. Addressing it would actually have an bigger impact on these extremely lopsided matches that happen when people tell their teammates to screw off, I'm out and leave at the first sight that they might lose. Also going to say, the enjoyment of the other players far outweigh those selfish enough to not care about their team in a team oriented game and leave. Also like a means of disabling that "rate this match" thing because my custom hud screws it up.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51442845]Which introduced yet another aspect of exclusivity to Valve servers, ravaging communities even further. Moreover, contracts are [I]laughable[/I] and do not constitute gameplay-affecting content. They're tantamount to glorified achievements and aren't very complicated code-wise. [/quote] community servers were dead by that point anyways, thanks to quickplay. contracts were, what, two per week, anyways? I've never chosen a Valve server over a populated community server, especially not ones I belonged to. I will grant that contracts shouldn't have been Valve server exclusive, but they did add incentives for experimentation to the game. Hell, I wouldn't be playing Demo or have developed my monstrous pipe aim without them. [QUOTE]Tiered crates were loaned from a system previously "pioneered" by CS:GO, which again, is nothing but another clever means of procuring profit. I fail to see how this qualifies as meaningful content. [/QUOTE] content is content, and there's no issue with getting profit off of non gameplay-effecting cosmetics I could just as easily make the same complaint about hats- if anything, generating profit for the game is a [I]good[/I] thing, since it ensures its survival [QUOTE]Outside of recovering discarded mediguns--a mechanic that didn't exactly endure--this "ingenious" addition is rather easy to discount given how mildly it impacts the game. [/QUOTE] It's still an addition, and I use it frequently. [QUOTE]My point about the Heavy earlier was meant to illustrate that even if notable balancing is administered during a specific point in the game's lifespan, it does everyone involved a disservice to treat this event as if it occurred in a vacuum. In hindsight, many of the positive changes made were for naught if they're subsequently reversed or overruled at a later date. In addition, Valve continued to ignore several conspicuous lapses in balance that should have been addressed expeditiously. [/QUOTE] And I said that 2016 was a disappointment. I was talking solely about 2015 as the year stood, before MyM. [QUOTE]In other words, it's another way for Valve to forgo the application of effort on their end. Don't get me wrong, I have no qualms with the addition of maps, but as a veteran of PC gaming, it doesn't strike me as anything significant when said maps could have been played at any time via a download or community server (had Valve not perniciously caused the decimation of community servers). I agree, of course, that mapmakers should be compensated, but that particular point is irrelevant here. [/QUOTE] Could they have been played at any time with a full server running them? Would common pubbers flock to servers running community maps (no- they never did that, not even before Quickplay). Would that have paid the creators responsible for the creation of the maps? The fact is, adding community servers to the game makes them much more accessible to the playerbase at large, and still very, very much constitutes as content being added to the game. I can't think of a year of TF2 with more maps or more balance changes then 2015. [QUOTE]People care about Mannpower? It seems like a wasteful expenditure of time on their end, and another excuse to ignore pressing matters that impact the game universally. [/QUOTE] That's fair. [QUOTE]You can't credit Valve with this, so it's trivial when used to allay concerns over Valve's incompetence or inaction.[/QUOTE] They were involved, and I was talking about the fact that TF2 enjoyed a great density of content in 2015. Which, regardless of its source or your nitpicking, it did. [QUOTE]2009-2012 would like to have a word with you.[/QUOTE] I will say that those years were [B][I]adding[/I][/B] a lot of new gameplay experiences in the form of weapons, but many of the weapons added in those years were outright broken, such as the Sandman. Rebalances are way more important than new weapons, especially in the latter years of TF2, such as 2015, that were already stuffed with them. I'd still rather play 2015 TF2 than 2009 TF2, since 2015 TF2 has much more content on offer. In terms of maps and balance changes, 2015 beats them all. If not the year to add the most content to TF2, 2015 certainly belongs up there as one of TF2's best years for adding new things to the game.