Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Punchy;51481003] and they still haven't taught people how to play their game[/QUOTE] If Valve isn't going to do an updated tutorial I would like to see them tackle this problem with a set of contracts for new players. Maybe make rewards some untradable skins, a few cosmetic items and something like an untradable backpack extender. Have 1 contract per class to help new players learn the classes a little bit.

Valve did have a system, besides the tutorials, to help new players learn how to play. It was called coaching and Valve decided to completely break it by removing quickplay. If they were interested in helping players learn the game they would either have not removed quickplay or update coaching to be compatible with casual, which they choose to not do. I really doubt we will see new tutorials any time soon as teaching new players how to play is not one of the TF teams priorities.

[QUOTE=Dreamscape;51493624]Valve did have a system, besides the tutorials, to help new players learn how to play. It was called coaching and Valve decided to completely break it by removing quickplay. If they were interested in helping players learn the game they would either have not removed quickplay or update coaching to be compatible with casual, which they choose to not do. I really doubt we will see new tutorials any time soon as teaching new players how to play is not one of the TF teams priorities.[/QUOTE] Sounds like you are giving coaching a bit too much credit.. I mean even I tried it and the person I coached was pretty much braindead - not to forget the great memes I got by the other players in the server. I'm relatively sure we had more exploits caused by coaching than helped players.. Off-topic : Have the yogscast items already been in the game for now?

coaching was an experiment

Don't think I've ever heard of anyone using coaching personally... People just did it to get those... I think it's glasses misc?

So comic part: 6 rate Agree for a 2017 release. rate optimistic for a 2016 release

[QUOTE=UberMunchkin;51493903]Where's the option for never releasing? :v:[/QUOTE] A funny? :v:

[QUOTE=Fluury;51493634]Off-topic : Have the yogscast items already been in the game for now?[/QUOTE] I genuinely don't why they were accepted to begin with.

[QUOTE=Sims_doc;51493979]I genuinely don't why they were accepted to begin with.[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=26091]For charity.[/url]

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;51492101]If Valve isn't going to do an updated tutorial I would like to see them tackle this problem with a set of contracts for new players. Maybe make rewards some untradable skins, a few cosmetic items and something like an untradable backpack extender. Have 1 contract per class to help new players learn the classes a little bit.[/QUOTE] My issue is that there's no effort to teach players even the most basic mechanics (90% of spies don't know you can disguise as your own team, 90% of pyros still don't realize you can extinguish even after the buff, the list goes on). Contracts are a good incentive to learn but it's not intuitive in a sense that players can learn everything they need about a class at their own pace. Contracts lock them to only learning based on the criteria they HAVE to accomplish

[QUOTE=ODSP;51488548][URL="http://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/4134"]Giant bot overhaul mod with various functions, even with a revamped training mode, nav meshes, etc.[/URL] [URL="http://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/4351"]Person still working on and perfecting nav meshes for quite a bit of maps[/URL] Granted it's only two people working on tweaking the bots but the work is out there.[/QUOTE] Still, that's probably more people than valve has working on it.

Do you think that making the team disguises a separate item slot (5th) would help with new players using it? Then YER can have a slight buff as well if it only disabled enemy disguises. I personally don't use it much because the key defaults to one across the keyboard, and I tend to avoid using the dead ringer, so I don't have as much of a use for disguising as teammates. I'd probably use it more if it was bound to reload by default (yes I know I can just rebind it, but it would be great if I didn't have to). The big reasons more players don't use the teammate disguises are both there being less situations where such a disguise seems useful, and that the only ways a player learns about the option is from other players, a random hint that pops up on the loading screen, or the tiny tooltip on the corner of the disguise ui. Something even more unknown yet even more usefull is using B to automatically apply your last disguise and switch your diguise's weapons. No idea how to make this more obvious than to give it a mandatory training thing or a sort of popup on screen. There could also be class specific achievements like for extinguishing teammates and reflecting projectiles that default to showing on the screen. Others could be the engineer's "repair and upgrade friendly buildings," the medic's "overheal" related ones, scouts' "objective capturing" related ones, spy's "assist with a sapper" ones, heavy, soldier, and demo's "help the goddamn medic" ones, etc. then when they get the original unlock weapons through milestone achievements, trading, crafting, etc. the achievement related to those automatically show up on screen. Some of the niche ones like ubering a scout or getting axe kills as pyro can stay hidden until the player wants to show them on screen or achieves them. Also valve pls fix the "heal 10000 health in one life" achievement's HUD tracker from "show the previous best attempt" to "reset to 0 on death and actively update during the current attempt." Thnx.

[QUOTE=Punchy;51494033]My issue is that there's no effort to teach players even the most basic mechanics (90% of spies don't know you can disguise as your own team, 90% of pyros still don't realize you can extinguish even after the buff, the list goes on).[/QUOTE] I feel like there's only so much a better tutorial/coaching/teaching system is going to do if the guy playing is is completely new to playing video games in general. And with TF2 being a highly-popular, [I][B]Free-to-Play[/B][/I] game, it's going to be a lot of people's first game. If completely fresh newbies had the ability to absorb anything from the current tutorial, i feel like you'd be finding a lot more newbies auto-swapping to Shovel as Soldier at Melee range rather than faceblasting the enemy with a rocket and killing themselves. Less an issue with how the tutorial currently is than newbies being unable to comprehend and utilize information about the game quickly. the Flamethrower and Rocket Jumper both have descriptions that tell people how they work, and Loading screen tips (however unnoticable they may be) let the player know that teammate disguises are a thing (not that teammate disguises are a game-changing ability anyway), and a player who gets how the game works only needs 10 seconds of menu-fiddling, or one quick glance at a killcam to realize that the weapons have statcards with info on them, prompting an investigation as to what actually works and when and how. Someone who's new to games in general won't pick that up very quickly, regardless of the written rewards or blatantly obvious tips on the card, because they aren't yet receptive to those kinds of things. Not to say the current system is in no need of updates, i just feel like "teaching [I]everyone[/I] how to be useful in game" is a high bar to set. It's hard to teach an inept player how to read without cramming it down [I]everyone's[/I] throat, or essentially playing the game for the player from the get-go.

Is the tutorials mandatory yet? Otherwise I doubt most newcomers take that option over just clicking the casual button.

[QUOTE=MysticLlama;51494597]I feel like there's only so much a better tutorial/coaching/teaching system is going to do if the guy playing is is completely new to playing video games in general. And with TF2 being a highly-popular, [I][B]Free-to-Play[/B][/I] game, it's going to be a lot of people's first game. If completely fresh newbies had the ability to absorb anything from the current tutorial, i feel like you'd be finding a lot more newbies auto-swapping to Shovel as Soldier at Melee range rather than faceblasting the enemy with a rocket and killing themselves. Less an issue with how the tutorial currently is than newbies being unable to comprehend and utilize information about the game quickly. the Flamethrower and Rocket Jumper both have descriptions that tell people how they work, and Loading screen tips (however unnoticable they may be) let the player know that teammate disguises are a thing (not that teammate disguises are a game-changing ability anyway), and a player who gets how the game works only needs 10 seconds of menu-fiddling, or one quick glance at a killcam to realize that the weapons have statcards with info on them, prompting an investigation as to what actually works and when and how. Someone who's new to games in general won't pick that up very quickly, regardless of the written rewards or blatantly obvious tips on the card, because they aren't yet receptive to those kinds of things. Not to say the current system is in no need of updates, i just feel like "teaching [I]everyone[/I] how to be useful in game" is a high bar to set. It's hard to teach an inept player how to read without cramming it down [I]everyone's[/I] throat, or essentially playing the game for the player from the get-go.[/QUOTE] If players have to rely on loading screen tips to understand game mechanics then you've failed as a developer People don't understand stats because they don't realize it's based off stock. They just see + and - and assume it's an upgrade or downgrade based on the ratio of blue to red. You can give the player information without shoving it down their throat. Overwatch has a key that tells you exactly what your weapons will do, what each button you press will do, and tells you the cooldown in seconds on when you'll get it again. It's not forced in your face, it's there for when you want to learn an item. TF2 doesn't have that. You're just forced to learn it. I've watched my older brother try to learn both games. He couldn't learn anything about TF2 unless I explained it and even then he didn't seem to enjoy it. He's learned all the basics of overwatch and plays it frequently without me ever helping him. So yes, you CAN teach a player without shoving information down their throat. It's by having the information available in the first place.

Assuming the weapon's worth based on + and - implies that they've at least glanced at the statcard longer that at least a millisecond. Following this logic, things like the Rocket Jumper should the forgotten in a newbie's loadout if the + to - ratio was something that was payed attention to, what with the 2 +s to 3 -s. People don't understand stats because they don't read them. They assume this new dropped weapon is a surefire upgrade to stock, period. [B][U]Edit:[/U][/B] When you say he "couldn't learn [I]anything[/I]" how far does that go? Surely he couldn't have gotten lost on moving his character while firing his gun if he can play Overwatch just fine? And i haven't played Overwatch myself, nor have i seen others use this "key that tells you exactly what your weapons will do", so i'm not sure what exactly i should be visualizing. Though i kinda feel like most weapons in TF2 are pretty straightforward compared to some of the things i've see in Overwatch, and some confusion is explained on the cards if players actually looked at them. Does it take this kind of mechanic, really, to explain how to use a rocket launcher or a shotgun? And are different unlockable weapons per character a thing in overwatch? (again, i wouldn't know) And i mean, Cooldown timers exist in TF2, and special mechanics are again listed on statcards, so i feel like it's less "force you to learn" and more "force you to actually look around rather than let the game spoon-feed you".

[QUOTE=MysticLlama;51494922]Assuming the weapon's worth based on + and - implies that they've at least glanced at the statcard longer that at least a millisecond. Following this logic, things like the Rocket Jumper should the forgotten in a newbie's loadout if the + to - ratio was something that was payed attention to, what with the 2 +s to 3 -s. People don't understand stats because they don't read them. They assume this new dropped weapon is a surefire upgrade to stock, period.[/QUOTE] I think this is true to some effect when you still see people trying to kill others with jumper weapons, which specifically state "-100% damage penalty". It's either that, or they're just really really dumb.

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;51494497]Do you think that making the team disguises a separate item slot (5th) would help with new players using it? Then YER can have a slight buff as well if it only disabled enemy disguises. I personally don't use it much because the key defaults to one across the keyboard, and I tend to avoid using the dead ringer, so I don't have as much of a use for disguising as teammates. I'd probably use it more if it was bound to reload by default (yes I know I can just rebind it, but it would be great if I didn't have to). The big reasons more players don't use the teammate disguises are both there being less situations where such a disguise seems useful, and that the only ways a player learns about the option is from other players, a random hint that pops up on the loading screen, or the tiny tooltip on the corner of the disguise ui. Something even more unknown yet even more usefull is using B to automatically apply your last disguise and switch your diguise's weapons. No idea how to make this more obvious than to give it a mandatory training thing or a sort of popup on screen. There could also be class specific achievements like for extinguishing teammates and reflecting projectiles that default to showing on the screen. Others could be the engineer's "repair and upgrade friendly buildings," the medic's "overheal" related ones, scouts' "objective capturing" related ones, spy's "assist with a sapper" ones, heavy, soldier, and demo's "help the goddamn medic" ones, etc. then when they get the original unlock weapons through milestone achievements, trading, crafting, etc. the achievement related to those automatically show up on screen. Some of the niche ones like ubering a scout or getting axe kills as pyro can stay hidden until the player wants to show them on screen or achieves them. Also valve pls fix the "heal 10000 health in one life" achievement's HUD tracker from "show the previous best attempt" to "reset to 0 on death and actively update during the current attempt." Thnx.[/QUOTE] it is actually bound to reload by default, it was changed in tough break ( or was it gun mettle? )

ironically, friendly disguises only really work against non-braindead players who can actually evaluate what's going on around. so it's like a paradox

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51495145]ironically, friendly disguises only really work against non-braindead players who can actually evaluate what's going on around. so it's like a paradox[/QUOTE] it works on every pub player in the world if you're using not at close range The item is meant to let you cross lines without enemies knowing a spy is present (and avoiding cloak use until you're in a closer range)

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51495145]ironically, friendly disguises only really work against non-braindead players who can actually evaluate what's going on around. so it's like a paradox[/QUOTE] Friendly disguises are used to mask a spies presence around their own team though.

yes that's what I'm saying. it only works on people that can actually evaluate the enemy class they're seeing. you can make the best fake, scare or distraction in the world with a friendly disguise but it won't do anything if the enemy is too dumb to consider what they see. and this is like 90% of tf2 players

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51495193]yes that's what I'm saying. it only works on people that can actually evaluate the enemy class they're seeing. you can make the best fake, scare or distraction in the world with a friendly disguise but it won't do anything if the enemy is too dumb to consider what they see. and this is like 90% of tf2 players[/QUOTE] So dumb people won't realize it's a spy, and smart people will fall for it and think it's not a spy. That's the point, friend. Friendly disguises aren't to make the enemy think you have a heavy and therefore they shouldn't attack you. It's just to make them think you don't have a spy nearby. You don't push frontlines disguised, you just run across in the background so the team will conclude you're just some enemy.

I think the point is dumb people don't react differently to spies than they would other classes, so making yourself look like a teammate is a pointless effort against them.

How hard is this to grasp You don't disguise to make everyone think your team is stronger than it really is, it's literally just so they don't know you're a spy New players won't comprehend that an enemy heavy makes the enemy stronger, they'll only conclude that "that is a heavy. that is not a spy. ok." Whether or not a dumb enemy sees a spy and concludes "that will come behind and backstab me" is irrelevant, because smart players WILL conclude that and THAT'S why friendly disguises work.

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;51494497]Do you think that making the team disguises a separate item slot (5th) would help with new players using it? Then YER can have a slight buff as well if it only disabled enemy disguises. [/QUOTE] It'd still be the worst knife in the game by a large margin, imo, and Spy already has 4 weapon slots to juggle- a 5th could be a real issue, especially for plebians who still use the mousewheel (#numberkeysmasterrace). honestly, if they do anything to the YER, they should probably just bring back a nerfed version of the Sahara set noise reduction. you actually could hear the decloak. I should mention, but most people are deaf in TF2 so they might need to nerf that a little bit. besides that, that's the only situation I see where the YER would be useful. it used to be "the chainstab knife", but now Big Earner and Kunai are both way better for that and YER has nothing to offer besides silly gimmicks in pubs.

I forget, since I don't really run Dead Ringer often ( the way I play spy, I'm much more effective with stock watch ). But when disguising as a friendly, and I trigger Dead Ringer, does my fake corpse be that of the friendly I disguise as or as a spy? IF not, you'd try to get hit with a rocket or explosive that will gib the fake corpse then if possible. The few times I do run dead ringer and get up to the front, I usually disguise as a friendly scout ( being he have the least amount of health ) and I generally try to trigger Dead Ringer quickly when trying to cross to give the enemy team less time to notice I'm running at incredibly slow speeds for a scout so they don't suspect me. Usually this will trick even good player since I don't give them enough time to actually figure out that I am in fact a spy. [QUOTE=Contra132;51495420]It'd still be the worst knife in the game by a large margin, imo, and Spy already has 4 weapon slots to juggle- a 5th could be a real issue, especially for plebians who still use the mousewheel (#numberkeysmasterrace). honestly, if they do anything to the YER, they should probably just bring back a nerfed version of the Sahara set noise reduction. you actually could hear the decloak. I should mention, but most people are deaf in TF2 so they might need to nerf that a little bit. besides that, that's the only situation I see where the YER would be useful. it used to be "the chainstab knife", but now Big Earner and Kunai are both way better for that and YER has nothing to offer besides silly gimmicks in pubs.[/QUOTE] This is kind of out of curiousity more then anything. But you being a spy main I'm curious on your opinion on the current Red Tape Recorder. For me, I only really deem it useful for dealing with mini spamming Engies, as the slower "destruction" rate means the engie will be disabled from using mini's for longer then stock sapper. I believe it still denies frontier justice crits too if I recall. But outside of that I find stock sapper ( well, festive sapper, since if they're not communicating well it's a direct upgrade over stock ) is more efficient on normal nests.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51495426]I forget, since I don't really run Dead Ringer often ( the way I play spy, I'm much more effective with stock watch ). But when disguising as a friendly, and I trigger Dead Ringer, does my fake corpse be that of the friendly I disguise as or as a spy? IF not, you'd try to get hit with a rocket or explosive that will gib the fake corpse then if possible.[/QUOTE] It drops a friendly corpse regardless. [quote]The few times I do run dead ringer and get up to the front, I usually disguise as a friendly scout ( being he have the least amount of health ) and I generally try to trigger Dead Ringer quickly when trying to cross to give the enemy team less time to notice I'm running at incredibly slow speeds for a scout so they don't suspect me. Usually this will trick even good player since I don't give them enough time to actually figure out that I am in fact a spy.[/quote] Depends on how long you're in their line of sight. The key is not to be seen at all until a few moments before the stab, which is problematic with DR but much easier with Invis. I'd recommend b-hopping and the occasional backpedalling to make your Scout disguise more convincing/you much harder to heatshot, btw. A Scout that's not jumping really sticks out, and if people happen to glance you in the corner of their eye jumping around, they won't have much reason to double check unless they stare for a little while. [editline]7th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51495426]This is kind of out of curiousity more then anything. But you being a spy main I'm curious on your opinion on the current Red Tape Recorder. For me, I only really deem it useful for dealing with mini spamming Engies, as the slower "destruction" rate means the engie will be disabled from using mini's for longer then stock sapper. I believe it still denies frontier justice crits too if I recall. But outside of that I find stock sapper ( well, festive sapper, since if they're not communicating well it's a direct upgrade over stock ) is more efficient on normal nests.[/QUOTE] It's simultaneously almost completely useless and absolute hell to play against. I don't use it, both become it's a less effective solution in most situations, and because I just think it's a bit of a dick move altogether. I think it might be banned in HL, too, but I wouldn't know as I've literally never equipped it more than three times in my entire career. Back when it released and it was essentially a straight upgrade, I put it in the same area I put Enforcer and OG DR- these are things I won't allow myself to use because I want a fair fight and I'm not a crutchbaby.

Red tape recorder is banned in HL, yes. If you put it on a freshly hauled building, it will destroy it immediately. If you put it on a building which has 175/200 progress, it will reset such progress immediately. Not sure whether stock has that or not. If you sap engi's buildings with normal sapper but you get killed, engi just has to repair his buildings and that's it. You died for no reason. With red tape, you can avenge your death and force him to upgrade buildings, and your teammates have more of a time gap to react to your sap (3 seconds-ish VS how much it takes for upgrading). Yes, they're good against minis. Engi can't use PDA to destroy. The only time the stock sapper is better is when the engineer can't reach his buildings in time or is dead, thus destroying them. When does that happen even? HL team pushes would be better if spy could try very hard and get the sentry to lvl 2 (Or teli in the middle of combat?) No one said revolvering buildings doesn't work with the red tape. 5/9 classes can take care of a lvl 1 sentry anyway. complete guide on it coming out in like 5 months bois can't bother with it because its banned in HL op shit

Not only does the dead ringer drop a teammate corpse, it currently drops a functional version of the disguise's weapon, meaning a spy can use environmental damage to become a dispenser for his team. Possibly even better than a dispenser because you just have to grab the weapon instead of waiting for the dispenser to fill up your ammo. Not that it's very practical, just something silly to do.