Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[t]http://i.imgur.com/Q2NhmTM.png[/t] funny is: never releasing late is: ???

[QUOTE=HL_Tentacle;51521846]That's the point of it, old Nick gives naughty children something practical.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Non-player_characters#Nicholas_Crowder.2FOld_Nick"]A year, possibly a lifetime, of labor in a sweatshop sure is practical.[/URL]

[QUOTE=HiddenShadow;51521902] late is: ???[/QUOTE] Releasing after never. Which appears to be the current goal.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51521445]The fact is if we don't get it this month, we won't get it until the next summer update. 1 year to make 3 weapons at most would be incredibly embarrassing.[/QUOTE] 1 year for balancing changes would be pathetic. Months for balance changes is already pathetic.

[QUOTE=Zeos;51522199]1 year for balancing changes would be pathetic. Months for balance changes is already pathetic.[/QUOTE] Don't worry, even if we don't get the Pyro class pack this month, we'll get some half-baked rebalances with no sense or reason behind them. Will the Kritzkrieg be nerfed? Will we get that much-needed Pomson buff? Who knows? Certainly not the TF2 team!

I do understand the criticism of balance changes- especially for egregious problems (BISON) taking six months. That being said, I also really like to see all these massive balance changes hitting at once- TF2 becomes a better version of itself with interesting new relationships between classes and weapons overnight. With the steady drip approach, chances are you'll adapt to each one within a day or two. Having everything change at once steepens the learning curve and, at least in my opinion, helps keep things interesting. My ideal scenario for TF2 is for the few problematic/underused weapons to be addressed, balance-wise, and then maybe the addition of 2-3 new gameplay-effecting weapons for each class with potential to change how that class is played. People- myself included- criticize the DR when it launched, for instance, but it added a lot more variety to the Spy class, just as the Gunboats added to Soldier, Sandvich added to Heavy, Crossbow added to Medic, etc. I'd really like to see more weapons that expand a class' roles and capabilities in interesting ways without being disgustingly overpowered (Sandman was a mistake).

A comp game cannot afford to [I]not[/I] be updated. Like, constantly. Weapons and characters need constant tweaks if any competitive play is going to survive. You just -can't- have that. It was apparent from moment 1 that Valve didn't really give a shit about competitive play, they listened to 0 feedback and genuinely believed that all you need for comp is matchmaking and ranks.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51522240]I do understand the criticism of balance changes- especially for egregious problems (BISON) taking six months. That being said, I also really like to see all these massive balance changes hitting at once- TF2 becomes a better version of itself with interesting new relationships between classes and weapons overnight. With the steady drip approach, chances are you'll adapt to each one within a day or two. Having everything change at once steepens the learning curve and, at least in my opinion, helps keep things interesting. My ideal scenario for TF2 is for the few problematic/underused weapons to be addressed, balance-wise, and then maybe the addition of 2-3 new gameplay-effecting weapons for each class with potential to change how that class is played. People- myself included- criticize the DR when it launched, for instance, but it added a lot more variety to the Spy class, just as the Gunboats added to Soldier, Sandvich added to Heavy, Crossbow added to Medic, etc. I'd really like to see more weapons that expand a class' roles and capabilities in interesting ways without being disgustingly overpowered (Sandman was a mistake).[/QUOTE] TF2 doesn't get better, though. Weapons identified as problematic over years of community testing remain untouched while we have to deal with good, balanced weapons being ruined for half a year at minimum, and previously benign weapons becoming toxic for years at a time. The OP Baby Face's Blaster was in the game for over a year, The Crit-A-Cola's nerfs are a joke and we had to deal with the insane Short Circuit for the whole of Christmas.

[QUOTE=Zeos;51522300]A comp game cannot afford to [I]not[/I] be updated. Like, constantly. Weapons and characters need constant tweaks if any competitive play is going to survive. You just -can't- have that.[/QUOTE] At this stage in development, most classes and weapons are in a perfectly fine place, balance-wise. A competitive game doesn't need constant changes to survive- most fighting games, for instance, like Melee, have gone literal decades without patches and huge balance changes because the scene is catered around the pre-existing game. There are problem children in TF2 that need to be addressed, yes, but when it comes down to it I feel like this game is mostly balanced. [QUOTE]It was apparent from moment 1 that Valve didn't really give a shit about competitive play, they listened to 0 feedback and genuinely believed that all you need for comp is matchmaking and ranks.[/QUOTE] I can't really argue with this. Whether it's HL or 6s you're attempting to adapt, there's literal years of data to build on. The TF Team was allegedly attempting to adapt 6s, but without any of the class limits or weapon bans that make that format function. People defended this as "they're trying to make their own meta!" but the truth is they barely did anything with a horrendously-broken Competitive Mode and there's no need to throw everything the pre-existing comp scene has already done to start from nothing. I feel like TF2 would've been in a far better place had they just adapted 6s for Competitive Mode with class limits in place, if nothing else. [QUOTE=Magypsy;51522303]TF2 doesn't get better, though. Weapons identified as problematic over years of community testing remain untouched[/QUOTE] As far as HL goes, most weapons in that environment are unbanned. Additionally, while a lot of weapons kind of break 6s and low-playercount formats (GRU being a prime example), they don't have nearly as much of an adverse effect on the 24-man pub experience. The TF Team has only very recently started to pay attention to what does and doesn't work in 6s, and it stands to reason that if they balance the game around competitive play its overall balancing outside of it should be better, too. [quote]while we have to deal with good, balanced weapons being ruined for half a year at minimum, and previously benign weapons becoming toxic for years at a time.[/quote] examples? and don't say Bison was a good, balanced weapon, it was a gimmick at best and a straight downgrade at worst [quote]The OP Baby Face's Blaster was in the game for over a year, The Crit-A-Cola's nerfs are a joke and we had to deal with the insane Short Circuit for the whole of Christmas.[/quote] which version of the BFB are you calling OP? the current version of the weapon is almost completely useless- Two Cities was the last version that was a viable sidegrade to the Scattergun. Like, I'm not saying the TF Team and its balancing decisions are perfect and flawless or whatever. But I find that major balance changes are a net positive to the game overall, even if there's a few problems here and there.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51522372][B]At this stage in development, most classes and weapons are in a perfectly fine place, balance-wise[/B]. A competitive game doesn't need constant changes to survive- most fighting games, for instance, like Melee, have gone literal decades without patches and huge balance changes because the scene is catered around the pre-existing game. [/QUOTE] Holy crap that is so unbelievably wrong it's impressive. And it's not just -changes- per se. The game is a performance nightmare, has tons of bugs, and balancing is fucked. How in god's name did they think comp was a one and done thing?

[QUOTE=Zeos;51522424]The game is a performance nightmare, has tons of bugs,[/QUOTE] fair [QUOTE=Zeos;51522424]balancing is fucked.[/QUOTE] you know what'd be cool? if you actually said how balancing is fucked. I explained my opinion in depth, and all you're giving me to work here with sums up to "you're wrong, this game is shit". are the majority of weapons in this game broken? aside from the abysmal state of heavy and pyro, what's wrong with class balance once those issues are fixed? of the weapons in the game, [URL="http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6"]these are the most broken[/URL], with the vast majority faring perfectly fine in low and high playercounts alike. [quote]How in god's name did they think comp was a one and done thing?[/quote] if this is addressed at me, you do realize that I agreed with you that Comp MM is a mess, right

Balancing has been screwed when you make a weapon designed for the mass majority of situations, it makes all other weapons obsolete for that class. Like the Tomislav for Heavy, an already accurate weapon with the additonal accuracy ramp-up is ridiculously annoying. And add that on the fact its only weakness is extreme close-range, there isn't much of a reason NOT to use it in most situations. Pyro's degreaser still being viable, as the only disadvantage (to me at least) is the afterburn reduction. The faster switch speed to and from is still there, making flare-punching an absolute joke, but switching away isn't as fast. (Which for me isn't much of a nerf at all...). Medic's crossbow and ubersaw, like...Why would you not use these!? When you have weapons that people use as a [I]'challenge'[/I] because of how shit they are, there is obvious balancing issues. Like hell I challenge myself to play BFB, Sun-on-a-Stick and Pocket Pistol and see how many kills I can get. Because of how utterly useless they are. And depressingly I get more kills with the Sun-on-a-Stick than the pistol!

[QUOTE=Contra132;51522372] examples? and don't say Bison was a good, balanced weapon, it was a gimmick at best and a straight downgrade at worst[/QUOTE] In the MYM, they nerfed the Disciplinary Action a little. It was only problematic in 6's if you wanted to run a Heavy to mid, besides that I'd considered it one of the few perfect weapons. The Phlogistinator, after its unecessary buff in the Tough Break update due to the base flamethrower changes, was then nerfed to be worse than it was pre-buff. Without the healing it goes from a gimmick against badly coordinated teams to useless without a Medic, who you can't protect because of the incredibly risky playstyle required. And don't forget the Claidheamh Mòr, which went from a situational sidegrade if you were good at charging and knew how to use the extra charge time to being a worse version of the Half Zatoichi. [QUOTE=Contra132;51522372] which version of the BFB are you calling OP? the current version of the weapon is almost completely useless- Two Cities was the last version that was a viable sidegrade to the Scattergun. Like, I'm not saying the TF Team and its balancing decisions are perfect and flawless or whatever. But I find that major balance changes are a net positive to the game overall, even if there's a few problems here and there.[/QUOTE] The Two Cities version was incredibly overpowered. You gained boost so easily, your initial movespeed was only 10% less than usual, you only lost about a quarter of your boost per air jump, which could be regained from one mid-range shot and its only real downside, the smaller clip size, didn't matter because you could just run away to reload and nobody could catch you. Oh, and don't forget: While community-run competitive formats are able to ban problematic weapons, TF2's official competitive mode has nothing like that, and Valve have shown no interest in adding any kind of pick/ban system. This wouldn't be a problem if they knew what weapons were problematic, or why they are and fix them, but they clearly don't. Them refusing to touch things like the Danger Shield or the Vta-Saw, while rebalancing the Pomson without changing any of the real problems behind it proves that.

still comical that they put 20 hp and 2 regen on backup and conch because in valve's imaginary world apparently everybody used the buff banner. i could recall dozens over dozens of valve's terrible balancing moves during the last 6 years

[QUOTE=geel9;51519905]"faggotry" Okay bye dude please leave forever[/QUOTE] triggered [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting" - Pascall))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51522677]still comical that they put 20 hp and 2 regen on backup and conch because in valve's imaginary world apparently everybody used the buff banner. i could recall dozens over dozens of valve's terrible balancing moves during the last 6 years[/QUOTE] I'll take any buff to the backup I can get. :v: It's my favourite banner, people vastly underestimate how powerful it is. You can lead entire pushes without having to uber with its damage resistance and crit immunity.

[QUOTE=X marks it;51522508]Balancing has been screwed when you make a weapon designed for the mass majority of situations, it makes all other weapons obsolete for that class. Like the Tomislav for Heavy, an already accurate weapon with the additonal accuracy ramp-up is ridiculously annoying. And add that on the fact its only weakness is extreme close-range, there isn't much of a reason NOT to use it in most situations. Pyro's degreaser still being viable, as the only disadvantage (to me at least) is the afterburn reduction. The faster switch speed to and from is still there, making flare-punching an absolute joke, but switching away isn't as fast. (Which for me isn't much of a nerf at all...). Medic's crossbow and ubersaw, like...Why would you not use these!? When you have weapons that people use as a [I]'challenge'[/I] because of how shit they are, there is obvious balancing issues. Like hell I challenge myself to play BFB, Sun-on-a-Stick and Pocket Pistol and see how many kills I can get. Because of how utterly useless they are. And depressingly I get more kills with the Sun-on-a-Stick than the pistol![/QUOTE] If you think the current Tomislav is overpowered then you clearly don't have the slightest clue over what you're talking about.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;51522752]I'll take any buff to the backup I can get. :v: It's my favourite banner, people vastly underestimate how powerful it is. You can lead entire pushes without having to uber with its damage resistance and crit immunity.[/QUOTE] well yeah that's exactly my point. the only actual issue between the 3 banners is the conch. This is fixable by making the conch need 600 dmg to charge, just like the other 2, since it still only needs 480 because valve forgets and has no idea it has been so from another age where the conch had no speed effect.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51522766]If you think the current Tomislav is overpowered then you clearly don't have the slightest clue over what you're talking about.[/QUOTE] I never stated it to be overpowered... I stated that it's heavily used due to its advantages out-weighing the advantages of his other primaries in a lot of situations. The entire post was discussing on why certain weapons are over-used.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51522847]well yeah that's exactly my point. the only actual issue between the 3 banners is the conch. This is fixable by making the conch need 600 dmg to charge, just like the other 2, since it still only needs 480 because valve forgets and has no idea it has been so from another age where the conch had no speed effect.[/QUOTE] They really suffer from the Crit-A-Cola Effect. Very good, but because nobody uses them to their full potential, people assume they're bad, leading to nobody using them, which then in turn makes Valve think they're bad and buff them unnecessarily. The only difference is that most players have realised how good the Crit-A-Cola is and abuse it.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51522677]still comical that they put 20 hp and 2 regen on backup and conch because in valve's imaginary world apparently everybody used the buff banner. i could recall dozens over dozens of valve's terrible balancing moves during the last 6 years[/QUOTE] The original rage sources were rather inconsistent. If memory serves, Battalion's Backup would only build from damage received, Concheror from damage received and dealt, and Buff Banner from damage dealt. It put the Backup at a disadvantage since it was both reliant on the other team and the amount of health packs available which was exacerbated by the original slow building rate.

Man I just want a nice, fun, and working update. Whether TF2 is balanced or not doesn't matter, because theres one big problem with TF2 in 2016: It isnt fun. The game feels like a mess to play, and its due to lack of updates, broken updates, and a terrible matchmaking system that is slow and inconsistent.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51515410]kgb of course the last untouched legendary bastion of a forgotten age of wonders[/QUOTE] To be fair not many people use the KGB, yeah it's kinda OP but it's only really used in Degroot Keep

See every time valve makes a promise about tf2 I don't even listen to them. Like the tf2 team has no comprehension of a schedule at all. They have made this apparent over the last few years, and unless they get their heads out of their asses, I'm gonna not listen to them one bit. The tf2 team's biggest problem, to me at least, is they make all these fancy promises they hardly keep

I'm starting to feel like the current devs don't even play the game. Which is sort of sad, to be honest.

[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51523756]I'm starting to feel like the current devs don't even play the game. Which is sort of sad, to be honest.[/QUOTE] I'm certain they do play the game! They might be weighing their personal experiences playing the game above the experiences of those of the very highest skill levels and play times, maybe. Maybe they got kept being dominated by another co-worker with the Righteous Bison, and the rest was history.

[QUOTE=spd12;51523931]Maybe they got kept being dominated by another co-worker with the Righteous Bison, and the rest was history.[/QUOTE] with the team's often less than 500 hours of playtime each, this doesn't surprise me

[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51523756]I'm starting to feel like the current devs don't even play the game. Which is sort of sad, to be honest.[/QUOTE] They might play but looking at how we have to deal with broken weapons (like the OP Short Circuit from last christmas, lag Short Circuit, breaking the bison and so on) for multiple days, they don't watch any content what so ever about TF2.

[QUOTE=spd12;51523931]I'm certain they do play the game! They might be weighing their personal experiences playing the game above the experiences of those of the very highest skill levels and play times, maybe. Maybe they got kept being dominated by another co-worker with the Righteous Bison, and the rest was history.[/QUOTE]Possibly. We don't know what goes on, so it's kind of a stretch for me to assume what I said. I'm worried about this game is all.

[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51523756]I'm starting to feel like the current devs don't even play the game. Which is sort of sad, to be honest.[/QUOTE] Devs don't even need to play the game on their own time to know what is and isn't fucking braindead. They could work from home in bed for all I care as long as the content isn't garbage That's the issue, even when some of them DO play the game they still manage to somehow fuck up I get that some tests will be received negatively and no matter what someone will be displeased, but they're one of the few developers to leave me scratching my head and nearly every single recent update release