TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

What I mean is that no Pyro main would have made Pyro even easier to play, which they would have found if they did non-automated play testing. I'm glad they improved the fire mechanics, but they don't mean anything if you can spaz the mouse and do 100% damage.

1. It's a near-straight downgrade to the Revolver now, and even in the scarce situations where it's not it's much less reliable to achieve the same results with. Here's a detailed spreadsheet on it- look at actual numbers and not the colors, though, because those got fucked up in migration. Ambassador vs Revolver by Woolen 2. Half of the fun of running Ambassador was pushing your aim to its limits. The game now arbitrarily decides that headshots past 1200 HU don't count. This range is only slightly longer than the 2Fort bridge, which is a relatively short range considering the size of sightlines in newer maps, especially Payload and KOTH maps. In addition to this change, which punishes the "fun" aspect, there's also... 3. Fucking crit falloff. This mechanic is inconsistent with every other form of crits in the game, and only serves to create inconsistent damage output past 512 HU, which is ramp-up range for any other weapon. Not only is the weapon less fun as an aim-training tool, it's now wildly inconsistent in its functional range and loses to the Revolver outright in most situations. 4. Spy is about killing people, not defending yourself. The Revolver has been and always will be the better self-defense tool. The Ambassador enabled Spy better pick potential, especially against statue Snipers. DR nerf was probably justified. Ambassador was never a balance issue for high-level play, just an annoyance in pub play. It could have been nerfed to be better to play against in pubs without stripping away what made it fun and making it a harder-to-use downgrade to virtually every other Revolver. But made no mistake: the weapon's dead. People still running it are running it out of habit or for whatever satisfaction they can gain from close-range headshots, but Diamondback is a straight upgrade in pubs and stock is almost always better in competitive play.

Woolen is a gunspy of course he's crying You can now push your midrange aim to its limits Yes, TF2 is a game of inconsistencies Spy isn't a direct confrontation class Yes, Amby wasn't a balance problem, but it pushed Spy into Sniper's role. This wouldn't be a problem if Sniper, and in extension also the old Amby, wasn't fucking cancer. TF2 is an arena shooter, its about midrange fights, it's not a CS-type one about spotting the enemy and shooting them in the head.

"push your aim to its limits" said by every spy ever holding M1 with the amby at less than three feet in front of you fishing for a lucky headshot.

sources tell me there is a class entirely designed for taking your aim to the limits

Scout?

While I don't think Spy should be doing 102 damage headshots from across the map I do think they took the amby nerf too far, I think the headshot range should be long than it currently is and probably should do some extra damage from long range headshots.

Providing a spreadsheet with hard data proving that the Ambassador is pretty shit is "crying" now? Does this logic apply to any presentation of data that supports a point you disagree with? Way to miss the point. Close and mid-range has always been where the Revolver dominates. Amby's niche was enabling long-range pick potential and rewarding higher burst damage to players who earned it. And inconsistencies are good game design now? Since when are inconsistencies in TF2, or any arena shooter for that matter, a good thing? It's literally like you aren't reading my posts at all. Literally the first sentence of my #4 point is that Spy is about killing people - GETTING PICKS- not defending yourself. You asserted that the Ambassador was a self-defense tool, when it's not, and are now asserting that "Spy isn't a direct confrontation class" as if that's ever something I said or implied. Get some reading comprehension, my man. You...you do realize that arena shooters have included ranged combat for a while now, right? That even TFC included a Sniper class? That Quake included railguns? This midrange-only mentality is flawed, especially when you take into account things like airshots and the fact that Sniper has been a part of Team Fortress since before Team Fortress 2 even existed. Also...the Ambassador made Spy a better counter to Sniper, since he no longer had to throw his life away to get a pick on the Sniper or, at least, force him to unscope and rotate positions. Wouldn't the game be better with more Sniper counterplay? :thinking: @Metaru That literally does not work. You cannot get headshots by holding M1, you have to stop firing for .95 seconds to enable headshots again. That's also, what, projecting the behavior of a few bad Spy players onto all of them? Spies like Woolen and myself don't play anything like that. @Fluury Sniper revolves around a scope, which alters FOV and sensitivity. Scout maintains raw aim- unaltered FOV and sens- but is limited to short-range. Ambassador Spy offered a niche for aim training that neither of these classes could provide, and that no other experience in this game can. The closest thing is the Classic, but even that requires slowing yourself to a crawl and requires a full charge to headshot, which doesn't provide the run-and-gun experience that made Ambassador so fun.

The greater good being players complaining about being beaten by better players?

oh, you know what I fuckin' meant. flame particle lifetimes and damage calculation is a bit fucky and should be changed, yes, but that's better than the flamethrower being as wholly useless as it used to be. I would rather pyro be viable and mildly janky than completely useless outside of five feet. I'm thoroughly mediocre at this game, so when I hear dozens of players who are presumably supposed to be better than me complaining of being insta-melted 24/7 by an endless tidal wave of pyros despite the fact that my own experience doesn't match the horror story at all, it's a little hard for me to the complaints fully seriously.

Heavy is one of the most used class by F2P's.

I'd accept pre JI flames being described as mildly janky. What we have now is pretty severely broken, even if it doesn't live up to the hyperbole you've heard.

What's a really bizarre visual issue is that the default shotgun's shell extractor only opens when used by Engie, the model is the same for all four clases that use it so I guess they just forgot to have it move with the Soldier/Pyro/Heavy animations.

I think you mean sniper. If heavy was as overplayed by new players as sniper or spy are, casual wouldn't have it's usual issues with a lack of team beef/power classes. They try it, sure, but then get demolished for being out of position or feasted upon by scouts, and then angrily switch to pyro =P

If you only play 2fort or turbine, sure, sniper. But I see way more F2P heavies on payload/attackdefend maps

I only see F2P Heavies when one of them calls for a rageheavy stack on Payload. Otherwise the Heavies I see seem to be honest-to-God Heavy mains.

I enjoy playing heavy, but without a medic. Tomislav is really great. The fact that It makes no noise can help you out so much. Tis not a bad class as everyone say.

Playing Heavy is really fun if you are on defense in a wide or long map, like, thundermountain (lots of elevation, corridors and flank routes), and most pl_ maps due to the cart healing you/providing cover. Meanwhile, going Heavy on 5CP feels like a chore if you don't have the GRU to reach the frontline fast enough or you are obliterated because the enemy team goes high-mobility classes/4 Pyros.

Another reason Source 2 would be good, the game looks like this if textures are missing. https://i.redd.it/clmlcau175o01.jpg Source

i like the purple and black repeating texture more, tbh. feels more iconic and "valve".

the amby was there so going "balls to the wall" didn't render an entire class moot. also as far as I remember the issue with amby was getting headshots at CQC distance. no one ever used it to snipe people across the map(unless you were playing orange_cp), wich is why dishing constant 102's was a fucking pain on the ass only equal to being cornered with the degreaser. I mean sure, the spy is the high burst assasin arquetype character but fucking 102's weren't being dealt because you were god's gift to motion tracking, it was because people rolled a fucking dice and got a hitscan headshot out of fucking luck way more times than scammers in a trade server.

Where's that mod to make the new flames colored like the old ones? Would like to try it in a sv_pure 0 game.

Mostly I just miss being able to headshot engie nests in pubs. When your team doesn't have a medic unless you go medic or demo unless you go those classes, it can be a bit annoying to push past the things.

Hum...I question this the line "TF2 is an arena shooter" namely because of the 9 classes in the game, sniper was actually in the original mod right from the start. He was of the first five introduced classes. This suggest that it was to be more then "just an arena shooter". Don't get me wrong, while I was a QWTF player I definitely wasn't there from the very beginning so I don't know if he even had the headshot mechanic back then right off the bat. He did have it when I did start playing them mod. Since they clearly had no intention of removing any of the nine classes when transitioning to TF2, that would also suggest it was never intended to be a "pure" arena shooter either. Here's some information of the original mod if citations are needed: Team Fortress

The issues with Ambassador was the fact that it was in the Spy's hands. It makes him into a mediocre pseudo-sniper that can get anywhere on the map, including behind you, including inside an obscure corner right next to your encampment because there isn't shit you can do about him until he's already plugged 102 damage into someone, at which point he can fuck off until the heat is down and do it again. All the meanwhile he's uncontested because there's no reason for people to expect a sightline to be used there so caution is low and flushing a sniper out isn't a priority. Alternatively, he's an annoying mid-range class with too much survivability (DR) for the luxury of dealing damage comparable to a point blank scattergun shot at ranges that no class is capable of matching that burst damage output (other than sniper himself) due to the nature of damage falloff affecting everyone else's guns. Something needed to give way, and they went a little overboard with it sure. The DR getting put into the dirt was long overdue but the Ambassador itself still benefit just fine from the above two scenarios by virtue of Spy's innate ability to attack from concealment and to also disappear into concealment. If Ambassador were instead a weapon on a class like Scout it'd be deemed less obnoxious because of the sheer virtue of being able to shut Scout's movement down with well-oriented sentries and of course the fact that if you're paying attention you'll catch him trying to get into position (or escape). This isn't to say it wouldn't be obnoxious in the hands of a good scout, in fact it'd be a terrifying prospect because Scout being able to sit comfortably at range and plink away at people when you can't deal enough damage to cut through to him is pretty damn annoying (it's part of why Shortstop got a reload penalty slapped onto it). Gunspy wasn't ever intended to be a thing, it was a tool for getting yourself out of trouble when being stealthy failed but you're not dead yet. I honestly don't want to see gunspy come back, but if it does I'd rather they traded the effectiveness of some other tool in exchange for being able to play rooty tooty point-and-shooty like the rest of the game.

unfortunately greekgod's stream wasn't as successful, he kept getting killed by the kkona guy "Pyro is the most overpowered champion I've ever seen"

Ambassador's problem was in CQC distance? You...you do realize that it still functions exactly the same in CQC distance, right? You're talking as if the nerf had...any effect whatsoever on the gun when played at short range, which it mostly didn't. From up to 512 HU (about half of 2Fort bridge), it still functions identically. Past that range headshot damage starts winding down, capping out at 51 at 1000 HU and stopping headshot registry entirely at 1200 HU. Also, where are you getting this "headshots a dice roll" mentality? The vast majority of weapons in this game function best when aiming at center-of-mass, and aiming in such a way that one lands headshots is aiming at a smaller target that increases your chances of missing significantly. You also made an M1 assertion earlier that is literally, factually incorrect (you have to stop firing for at least .95 seconds for headshots to start registering again) and seem to think that the nerf changed anything that you disliked about the weapon. Are you just angry? I'm asking this sincerely and not as an attempt to provoke you or anything, you kind of just seem like you're really pissed off and it's clouding your judgement. You're normally a lot more thoughtful and reasonable than this.

my point is, the suposed "nerf" didn't even adress the main issue with the ambassador. the issue with it was it being a lite version of the huntsman - the ambassador was never used to snipe people from battlement to battlement, it was used to outright kill people inside the bridge. Sure, you can credit the entire skillceiling that revolves around perfectly landing headshots with it and pin point accuracy and well timed shots to a point where, if you played with regulars in comunity servers you could tell wich spies were the ones that had to be avoided face to face because they would land those consecutive 102's and kill you in two shots unless you could move out of sight, but it wasn't just those spies getting headshots. it was a chance game - one where no matter how much you maneuver, if they landed it it was already on their side. if you paired this with the old DR, you had one resilent motherfucker who could two shot you and run the fuck away if shti went wrong completely unscratched. any skill involved in leading targets with the sniper rifle is moot when you're using the amby at close range and get the fuck away with it. and even the current DR will, to an extent, help you get away from harm if there isn't a well aware pyro to track you down until your resistances wears out.

TF2 being called an arena shooter is probably one of the funniest things this forum has seen in the past 10 or so pages. Oh yeah, TF2 is definitely an arena shooter. That's why it's been labelled as a class-based shooter since the original Team Fortress.

its an arena shooter until you become the one true hero that caps at hightower.