TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

To deal 300 damage in 1.8 seconds, the Scattergun has to be in max ramp-up range, where the Heavy will be putting out a whopping 500 DPS. The Scout may have mobility options that make him difficult for the Heavy to deal with, but you can aim upward and turn to keep up with him. He has to hit you perfectly for 1.8 seconds while hopping around like a maniac. You have to track him with your Minigun for under half a second (500 DPS/2 = 250 dmg over .5 seconds). The fight is fair. Just because a fight isn't one-sided in the Heavy's favor (ie: vs Pyros) doesn't mean it's unbalanced.

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf\download\maps

I never said it wasn't unbalanced? I said it was in the Scout's favor. Even if it wasn't, you saying that it is doesn't mean it instantly is and actually would be bad balance, because, y'know, Scout is designed to counter the Heavy?

Scout isn't fun; they pepper you from range and blast you in the back when you're distracted. The brave ones can be entertaining, but there isn't any incentive for bravado.

Scout doesn't counter Heavy, he's got too much health for Scout to feel comfortable engaging head-on with one. Moreover Scout's fast movement enables him to harass Heavy better than Heavy can react to Scout due to Heavy's gun requiring it be spooled before firing. In a straight up fight, Heavy wins because he can comfortably tank Scout's damage while Scout cannot do the same. Scout doesn't want to take a straight-up fight, though. The prevailing strategy is to pick at Heavy's health when he's unprepared and otherwise caught off guard for long enough that Scout can take a different angle to seal the deal. If harassment or attacking while someone is distracted is all it takes to be considered a counter class, then Spy should be the best class in the game -- this obviously isn't the case. There's more going on than simply attacking when someone's back is turned to you.

I'm surprised they haven't done anything about mad milk, it is pretty bullshit and banned in every competitive format and league.

You said they have an exponential advantage, and I disagree. You literally need half a second- conservatively- of good tracking to kill a Scout that's engaging you in both of your optimal ranges.

I don't get where people here get this misconception that the only time Scout fights Heavy is straight-on. Have any of you played competitive Heavy at all? It's not like playing Heavy in pubs, where Scouts run up to you asking for free death. You won't even see Scouts for a majority of the time, because they're flank classes. They flank you. Nobody is trying to argue a straight DPS argument, that's stupid and is proven wrong by googling "Tf2 damage numbers". A Spy has the highest DPS in the game, yeah? So realistically he'd win any fight that favors him. That's not what we're talking about. Actual competitive, smart Scouts will be focused first on picking classes like the Medic and Sniper, because they're flanks in Highlander (where Heavy is most seen). Heavies are always in wide open areas madly swinging about trying to hold said area with their team. And guess what? Actual good Scouts will attack when they have the advantage, because they're not pub Scouts, and they can and will, a majority of the time, kill a Heavy of equal skill. "But Smokin' Joe, that's not what you're arguing, is it?!??!? You big idiot, you stupid fuck???? You argued that Scouts counter Heavies?!?!?!?!?" Indeed I did. Scouts counter Heavies because smart Scouts know that Heavies are weak if they can't track you. Heavy is literally just about tracking people with your minigun. All these top tier pro players saying "well if he jumps over you, just turn around and keep shooting!" obviously haven't play a single day of actual Heavy in their life, because they would otherwise know it's literally never that easy. Scout counters Heavy (as he should) because Scout puts out high damage and Heavy can't track a Scout that moves properly. That's why they ambush Heavies. That's how they counter them, they use actual strategy and planning to win fights.

That's already assuming that valve cares enough to throw their money at a TF2 tournament. But if they do, it'll probably end up like sigafoo 7v7. Invite players will play it to collect prize money and everyone will regard it as a side thing to fund b4nny's twitch career.

You literally only need to backstab people to play Spy properly. Why are Spy mains like you still bitching about how weak the class is? You literally deal more than enough damage with a single backstab to kill anybody, so you should counter every class. Hyperbole, but to prove a point: you don't actually play Heavy and just looked at his damage numbers on the TF2 wiki, maybe played a bit in a pub game. I'm not going to try an argue that Spy is the perfect class because I don't actually play him at a competitive level, I can't even trickstab, and you should do the same when talking about Heavy, pause and think "well gee, maybe this class that I'm talking about is harder to play than I think it is!", instead of spouting TF2 wiki damage numbers like every other genius arguing on this site (here's to you, ASIC).

Pretty sure Valve doing an official tournament would be a big deal.

Definitely, I don't think it would make World news, but they're be at least a bit more buzz around TF2 than usual.

I'm not sure if I am following you. You're saying Scout counters Heavy because he can pick his fights and only engage Heavy with his pants down?

I have played Heavy, though, and I've played against really good ones (High-Silver/Plat) in Highlander. Good HL Heavies protect their combo from flankers with a very high level of effectiveness, and fail when their combo is weak. Heavies in Highlander die when they overextend or when their team does. I've been playing since fucking Season 12. This isn't reflective of Scout being a particularly good Heavy counter, because anyone can be responsible for the killing blow when those conditions are met. I also never said or implied that Heavy was easy. I respect the game sense and skill required to play Heavy at a high level, and an excellent Heavy is the bane of my existence. But also? Your hyperbolic comparison falls flat. The requirements of stabbing someone- especially a skilled player on a coordinated team- are not even remotely comparable to the basic aim-tracking requirement of winning a direct 1v1 as Heavy. They're two very different things. And finally- forgive me for taking a look at actual data and statistics when making my argument. I even stayed conservative with the requirements on the Heavy's end (since half a second in that range is 250 damage, aka twice the Scout's health, and I shaved off 50 damage from the DPS in that range as well) to account for a bit more human error on the Heavy's part while not permitting the Scout any in my 1.8 second time-to-kill calculation.

Heavy only does max DPS after being spun up for a full second (during which he's effectively immobile). Scout can do max damage with every shot of his scattergun. I attempted to explain this to a scout main once. Imagine if the first shot of a scattergun did 50% damage, the second 75%, and the third finally did 100%. "That would ruin the class" was his response. TBH, I'd like to see Natascha rebalanced. I know comp players hate it because it denies jumpers, and I don't remotely GAF. Keep it banned. The damage resistance while spun up AND below half health is kind of useless. Do one of two things: Make it bullet resistance only and active whenever spun up and at any health level. Alternately, keep the damage resistance to all types (including melee, because fuck denoknights) and add "-1 cap rate on wearer." Do the same with the Brass and Fists of Steel (and get rid of the annoying healing penalties on the FoS.) That way Natascha/FoS/Brass heavies can't sit on the point as an immovable object (nor poosh little cart) but they can survive for a bit longer while suffering the other penalties of their weapons. The counterpoint to this is a buff to the Huo-Long Heater: +1 capture rate while spun up. With these changes, Heavy is not precisely viable, but his sidegrades that aren't the Tomislav are now more viable and allow for a bit different play style.

Scout counters Heavy because he has the resources to avoid straight-on fights with Heavies, just like how he's intended to counter Demo by getting close. Assuming that every fight is a straight-on 1v1 gun duel is silly because that is literally never the case. That's what I'm saying.

Anything can destroy an unrevved Heavy, that's an intentional balance decision. If the Heavy dies because they weren't revved before a fight started, it's their fault- Heavy is a gamesense-centric class, and not being revved when they're in danger is a glaring failure in that gamesense. Of course a Scout can beat an unrevved Heavy. I can kill an unrevved Heavy with the fucking stock Revolver. Is Revolver Spy a Heavy counter now?

Heavies in Highlander die whenever they're focused because they're giant immobile targets. I've been playing Heavy in Highlander since fucking season 12. I've played with and against good Scout players. I've even been tutored by high-skill heavy players like Ruskeydoo. I show up in this old video of him tutoring Coaplant. i don't get what you're trying to prove by saying "anybody can deal the killing blow to the Heavy". Alright? I wasn't arguing that. My hyperbolic comparison doesn't fall flat. The requirements of stabbing someone can be boiled down to "poke somebody in the back", which is what you do with your arguments, you boil down the idea of Heavy being in a 1v1 fight to "you shoot the gun and Scout dies because you have bigger numbers". They're not two different things if you ignore literally every part and variable of the argument. Statistics and data are not the end-all be-all of arguments. Actually consider things like - map awareness, positioning. team coordination, et cetera, and you'd realize that, yeah, maybe Scout does counter Heavy! The idea that "statistics never lie" is a wholly incorrect idea and, in fact, statistics lie, all the time. You have to actually have context to the statistics for them to matter, and what you're doing is the equivalent of trying to argue that both the Scout and Heavy are in a tiny white room, with no scenery, staring straight at eachother before the fight even begins. Scout has a lot of advantages Heavy doesn't have. I didn't even get into alternate items like the Guillotine or Sandman or Mad Milk that swing the fight even more towards the Scout.

I don't know. If Valve threw a $200,000 prize pool at the Rewind LAN and the i series LAN I think most comp players would want to play whatever format that Valve decides on as much as possible to practice the forma and get a chance to win those prizes pools.

Ah, Ruskeydoo. There's a name i haven't heard in a long time. Anyways, I'm not relying on the white room scenario for my argument. What I was saying by making that argument is that the Heavy only needs to be locked onto the Scout for a very short window of time to deal twice his health in damage. This leaves room for the Heavy to continue fighting other players, especially if he's overhealed and playing with his combo (which he should be, in Highlander). Heavies in Highlander are often warding off or tracking multiple threats at a time, usually the flank but sometimes also taking a direct part in combo v combo fights. It's true that Heavies die to getting focused down, but if this is happening in Highlander they are either: Not with their combo or overextended (out of position) With their combo and getting focused in a team-fight And in the latter scenario, that has way more to do with the performance of the combo and team overall than it has to do with a pesky Scout main helping focus you down. Mad Milk definitely skews things against Heavy, to be fair, but weren't the other items you mentioned banned in Highlander pre-nerf? Also, stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "statistics never lie", nor did I imply it! I used statistics to supplement my argument, and even referred to them in a way skewed closer to your argument (Heavy getting flex room for human error in my calculation while Scout did not)! Had I relied on nothing but raw statistics and not made that adjustment, Heavy would have boasted a quarter-second time-to-kill on Scout with Scout needing seven times that to secure the kill! Since we're talking Highlander now (which you didn't mention in the post I initially responded to), what makes Scout so special here? How is the Scout countering Heavy more than Sniper, Spy, Demoman, other Heavies or Soldier? Heavies dying in Highlander are dying to lost team fights and being ambushed or sniped when out of position. At least in my games, I'm most often seeing Heavies die with their combos or to Snipers, not to lone Scouts.

Ah, the good ol' debates from prem Highlander players.

Community 6s *shouldnt* bend over. It's a different beast, and that's fine, because it isn't in direct competition with Valve MM. I played like 5 Matches of TF2PL today. 2 were abandoned which obviously caused the teams to forfeit. I asked the fellas in the game, and they told me it's rare so I'm gonna go with their saying. Either way; It was fun, alright. People communicated, you had the good maps and the balance was pretty decent (however we had a big edge most of the time), so thanks for inspiring me to go for it. Now: Does TFPL make Valve comp useless? No. Because like in CS, Community comp and and In-game comp are different beasts; Here is the bloody stepladder: Casual -> Competitive > Community Competitive As stupid as it sounds the normal competitive is essentially "Casual Competitive" where you can off-class freely, try your skills against better people and play TF2 in a more serious enviorment than casual with faster queue times than Community competitive, invest like 50% of sweat and still have a good time, where in TFPL you obviously invest 100% sweat. And that "ranking system" is fine, especially for the future growth of competitive as a whole. And to come back again; Pyro might not be a generalist at a high skill level, but he sure is one at medium or so. Competitive mode has flaws such as the limitations, no incentive apart from just having fun and a variety of other things. But it's not useless, it fills a spot which was empty before and It's gonna be interesting how the TF Team will develop it from now on now that the base isn't absolutely fucking stupid anymore with Glicko intact. Once again, your rank being 10% less representative of your true skill is not an issue when the gain is that you can actually play with friends and have fun, you know, one of the most important aspects of multiplayer games - the multi part.

What's the purpose of ranked if you don't care about your rank? If you soley want the competitive experience with friends, join a Highlander league or 6v6 league. It'd be garbage to get dudes with shitnugget partners who drag the entire team down. At least in a 100% solo queue situation I can expect 100% of the people on my team to have gotten to my rank on some merit, unless they were externally boosted by someone using their account. And that's if you want to give someone your steam account credentials and pay someone to do it. There are plenty of ways for you to play competitive via scrims, pugs, Valve's matchmaking, official leagues, etc. Go play those. But I'd prefer if Valve's matchmaking had the same way, but I'd be open to a separate "Team queue" where you create a roster with friends and go up against other rosters, and the MMR representation is on a per-team basis than individual.

I already told you the question, parties having the chance to mispresent your rank doesnt ENTIRELY ruin the concept of ranks or ranks itself. You cannot expect me or my friends to fucking join a highlander league or whatever and then wait for them to start when I just want to play competitive tf2 with them don't you see how insane this argument is? The one dude dragging the team down is first of all incredibly rare and second of all likely won't happen in the first place. The other ways of playing comp aren't nearly as effective and convenient as official comp. Seriously dude do you only solo queue or do you not see the extreme value a party system has to... essentially 90% of the playerbase?

I have literally only solo queue'd in every ranked matchmaking of games I've participated in, even ones that have "Dynamic MMR" without split solo/party. That'd be the other way to do it, split solo and party MMR so just like in dota people can just not give a fuck about party MMR and only see solo MMR as a means of merit, and add a solo queue option.

"The one dude dragging the team down is first of all incredibly rare and second of all likely won't happen in the first place." no its not lol, used to happen every 2 lobbies back when lobbies were relevant.

Don't know much about center but center doesn't have a bloody MMR system to begin with. And in valve MM you don't even know if they are in a party so you cant judge that in the first place.

Your point of this entire argument is that ranks mean something in Valve comp?

It uses the Glicko System, so yes. At the moment most people have a placement match, alongside of the entire system being fresh and new chances are stuff is wacky at the moment, however given it uses Glicko ranks will mean something, and even at the moment kind of do. You don't see comp players getting placed at rank 3 and you don't see toddlers being placed at Death Merchant.

Since the comp backgrounds aren't used anymore, maybe have them be the backpack backgrounds? https://i.imgur.com/k1lKSIb.png