TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

what snipers are gunning for you before you've even made it to mid? I think you have bigger problems than your movement speed if their team is that far into your territory...

Would it be nice if the Kritzkrieg had it's own unique (therefore, distinguishable) audio cues? Have you ever waltzed into a hot zone expecting an Ubercharge only to receive crits, killing you, confusing both you and the Medic? Both the Quick Fix as well as the Vaccinator have unique healing sounds that are very particular, and I've found that most players who have played with/against them before are able to easily pick up on what medigun I'm using without having to ask or to look back at my player model, despite the fact that both of them are nametagged. Something as simple as a lower/higher-pitch version of the stock Medigun (just for example) would go a long ways in quickly creating that association. Do you think that could have implications on the competitive meta with players being able to pick out by sound if the enemy is using stock or kritz? Would that be a beneficial change, adding an extra layer of strategy in letting the more discerning and keen players pick out the Kritzkrieg as opposed to stock Uber? Or would it be detrimental, throwing away some of the element of surprise and taking a small role out of the hands of an off-class Spy checking for enemy Medic's charge %?

A good point. But, if we're talking about in pubs (as I assume we are), you can't rely really on Snipers not being basically everywhere. If you're against a good Sniper, who's to say they aren't around a corner waiting for you to walk by? If you're against a bad Sniper, why bother crouching in the first place if they can't hit the shots?

I would love to see Valve give the Kritz it's own unique backpack and healing sound. Kinda surprised they haven't yet since they seem to be giving every other weapon unique sounds.

Remember kids: "how do you avoid OHKO hitscan damage out of your field of view as the slowest class in the game?" https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/132767/ab6ffb33-7676-4598-8d66-91d3067baec2/image.png Alternatively, blame it on the team!

Weapons that need unique sounds Beggar's Bazooka - explosion Liberty Launcher - explosion Loch-n-Load - explosion Iron Bomber - explosion (it used to have a unique explosion but it uses the same as stock now) Scottish Resistance - firing and explosion Kritzkrieg - healing Blutsauger - firing, maybe use the unused dart projectile as well

Sniper isn't overpowered, but mechanically overpowered. As in there's an infinite skill ceiling, and as you get better, the closer to basically aim bot you become. A Plat sniper can essentially stomp any pub no matter what the other team is running because sniper is just that good. That doesn't mean it's the average though.

I never said it actually makes you immune to sniper, just as someone who's played plenty of sniper heavies who crouch spam and spray at me enough to throw off my aim have a greater chance of surviving until a teammate deals with me, they get out of my sight range, or I'm forced to back off. It reduces the reliability of any shot I take because taking spray damage and crouch intervals add a lot of variables to how reliable my shot is going to be. Nothing in this game is 100% foolproof. It won't make him the "worst class in the game". It's just a method of dealing with him as a movement impaired class. Also getting to mid is irrelevant in this example because you aren't going to encounter snipers until you get there anyway, so you don't even have to crouch spam in that scenario.

It'd be kinda interesting to see Heavy get an item like the original Darwin's Danger Shield, where he gets enough of a health buff to survive a fully-charged headshot, but has to sacrifice his secondary slot (meaning no Sandvich or Banana, which are ESSENTIAL upgrades in like 99/100 situations). So now he has an easier time getting to where the action is, but he becomes much more dependent on his team while all of his utility is boiled down to putting out damage and drawing enemy fire.

I've played with and against Plat Snipers, and there is a significant difference between Plat Sniping and Aimbot Sniping. Human limitations are pretty significant, and I haven't met a Sniper yet who can't be killed by skilled flankers, especially in pubs, where there is no limit to how many Soldiers, Scouts and Demomen can be in play at a time. I have very rarely fought Snipers and felt like I had no control whatsoever over how our engagement ended. And no, I'm not saying this because I usually play Spy. I typically play Soldier, Demo or Scout in pubs, and I have never experienced the problems you all seem to with the Sniper class in this environment.

ive agreed with this ever since i saw this. Oldie, but goodie on design. I've always felt like the medic's backpack was a strategic indicator of what he was running so the opposing team could play accordingly, but that changed when they made it cosmetically replaceable

I crouch all the time against Snipers. For some reason, it's literally never worked. I always get headshot while my head is starting to dip. Sniper is the most important/powerful class in Highlander besides Medic. You guys ought to stop acting like he's this perfect class that needs no changing. He's the only long-range class in a game of short-mid range fighters, meaning those short-mid range fighters can do nothing against a Sniper that is far away besides spamming random movement keys and hoping they're not good at the game. It's not fun.

Highlander is reflective of neither pub or 6s balance. Sniper and Demoman are both significantly more powerful in HL than they are in pubs or 6s, where multiple Scouts and Soldiers would normally be able to keep them in check. Even in Highlander, these classes can and do kill Snipers, but with much less frequency due to the 1-class limit and the prevalence of the combo Sniper playstyle. Nobody has said that Sniper is a perfect class, but this insistence that he's somehow screamingly overpowered is blatantly false and not reflected in high-level play. Even Sniper at his most powerful, in Highlander, is not the infallible god that you seem to think he is. Additionally, Sniper is far from the only class with a long-range damage option. Demoman projectiles have no falloff damage, Medic's crossbows have reverse falloff and deal half the Sniper's health in a single hit, Pyros have flares that cause afterburn and cause the Sniper's aim to jitter, sentries have a range exceeding max falloff range, Engineers can use the wrangler to pester Snipers in sightline of their sentries...and, of course, classes that can explosive jump can close the distance and kill the Sniper extremely quickly. I'm sure there's more than what I just listed, but these are the first that came to mind. Sniper's downside is a lack of mobility and close-range firepower. Sure, he might be able to get off a point-blank quickscope (very difficult and unlikely, especially if you aren't moving like an idiot), but aside from that...if you're a combat class, you've pretty much already won. Heavy is pretty much the only class who has no recourse whatsoever against a Sniper, and that's because... wait for it... Sniper counters Heavy. That relationship helps keep Heavy in check and stops him from being able to mow down every Scout, Soldier, Pyro and Medic he sees with impunity. Could Sniper use some balance tweaks to reduce frustration when playing against him? Sure. But the core of his kit- quickscope headshots, the Sniper Rifle itself- is fine. Human limitations need to be taken into consideration when balancing, as should what's actually going on at a high level. Nobody in Invite is screaming about the Sniper being overpowered, and high-level HL players already know that Sniper dominates because of the format itself, not the class. Stop walking in straight lines, stop peeking in sightlines if you aren't fast enough to cover the distance, and go Soldier or something if a Sniper is countering you and you can't countersnipe him. There are too many options in this game for you to pretend that your deaths are Never Your Fault.

Ducking as Heavy never really works because it's just too slow. He's already a big beefy boy, so you're not exactly cutting down on your visible body mass for the Sniper to put a shot in. Add this with the fact that you're already the slowest class, so now moving to the front is even MORE of a chore; Snipers are gonna target Heavies because they're both high-value and easy to hit, so it's a handicap that literally no other class has to account for in that way. If the Heavy crouches at the right moment, the Sniper might miss their shot; but if the Heavy can't turn the tables in some way before they reload and fire again, he's as good as dead. When a Heavy crouches, he not only sacrifices mobility, but he also sacrifices his weapons. If an enemy happens upon you while crouching, any other class can engage them and defend themselves. Heavy needs to choose if he wants to keep moving or engage the enemy; if he fires his gun, he's easy picking for the Sniper. If he keeps moving, whoever is flanking him can have their way with him until he's out of the Sniper's sights. And that's not even factoring in spin-up time. Not saying that Heavy should be perfectly viable all the time and win every encounter against every class, but no other class (aside from Medic and maybe Engineer) is reliant on the rest of the team in the way that the Heavy is. Respawns aren't staggered and he's slower than everyone else, so until he gets to the front lines there's a good chance he'll be on his own, which is exactly when he's on the bottom of the totem pole in terms of viability. tl;dr If you're a Heavy and you see a Sniper eyeing you up from across the map, your options are to get a Medic, get some cover, or wait until a teammate distracts/kills them for you. Though I've also had some scattered success in being a big tough alpha male and just firing at the Sniper, hoping that the little bits of chip damage I do from afar is enough to throw off their aim VV

"Get a Medic" This is implying you shouldn't have one already. Heavy isn't a solo class that can function on his own. The same goes for engineer, both of these classes are incredibly powerful with a team but very weak on their own.

The "Iron Curtains" - Glorious soviet steel prototype hairpiece (secondary slot). Wearable under any hat, fashionable steel hairpiece of snug wearings will attractink many medicine men. +Good for one (1) headshot of any charge%. Recharges after 60 seconds, timer reduced (ever so slightly) with damage dealt. Spawning/resupply does not affect recharge. -Prototype soviet wirings spark uncontrollably to informink your enemy that you are soviet powerhouse. this is a joke

isn't fists of steel way better against snipers than gru???

crouching in tf2 to avoid getting headshot doesnt work. tf2 is surprisingly slow when it comes to crouching, and i suspect it is that was exclusively so you can't teabag peaople.

This too, fist of still is anus to fight as sniper.

why, in a world where you can jump and keep your momentum while at the same time keep your head hitbox away from a headshot one would "randomly crouch".

On top of that, it's very predictable. Seeing someone spam crouch jump is obvious, because everyone who played a source game before does it.

Jumping actually makes you way easier to hit because you move in a predictable arc. Crouch spamming is unpredictable if done correctly and can throw off aim.

Aren't we both in agreement that Valve should fix the non-5cp gamemodes to better work with 6s? In which case, he'll probably end up dominating 6s, too, in A/D and Payload.

Yes, I don't know why you think I've changed my mind there. But no, he wouldn't. Sniper is best in Highlander on KOTH, Product especially, and it turns out...get this...that KOTH is played in 6s, too, and Sniper is still focused down and killed there. The abundance of high-mobility classes in 6s effectively counters Sniper and Demoman, two powerhouses who are much more difficult to deal with when the Offense classes are limited to 1. Most 5CP maps already have big open sightlines, as well. Process and Sunshine, on paper, should be Sniping heaven...but they're not, because Sniper has no mobility to speak of and because he's fighting 4 players on the enemy team who can close the distance on him very, very quickly. The reason Sniper and Demo are strong in Highlander isn't because of Payload or A/D- hell they're strong in Highlander 5CP too, which is just the fucking worst. It's because their best counters- Soldier and Scout, respectively- are both hard-locked to 1. Highlander operates under the pretense that all classes are made equal, and in doing so reveals that they are not.

Maybe that ought to be leaned on a bit. A small change, here and there.

Do you want to elaborate on that point?

Like Dave Riller, I want the classes to be more generalized. Generalizing does not mean making the classes similar to each other. It means making them useful and powerful enough that, within their own roles, they can succeed within almost any team composition.

replying so newpunch will show the new page come on garry, fix this glitch already

I do it all the time. See the thing is, it's not exactly a 100% reliable method of deterring the Sniper's accuracy; after all, the Sniper is using a hitscan weapon, and you can't really dodge that now can you? Sniper's only check on his power is human error, which isn't a brilliant method of balance, but I'm not willing to expend my valuable time on debating cowardly long-range instant kill enthusiasts, so believe what you want.

I wish beta still existed so radical changes could actually be tested before they were thrown out entirely. I can't find the Dave Riller quote specifically. Lord Exor told me he said that a while back and I've sort of just held onto it. What changes do I want to make? It'd take me days to collect those thoughts in detail. Here's a simple set of changes that are sort of vague: Scout - fix weapons (the baseline of power, really) Soldier - reduce max health to 175, slightly increase movement speed Pyro - improve flamethrower dps with a greater aim requirement, improve stickybomb airblasting Demoman - improve defensive capabilities while reducing offensive capabilities Heavy - allow him to be more in control of damage coming at him significantly, reduce max health to 200 Engineer - increase max health to 150, improve engineer's ability to move his gun, increase sentry health, at the cost of turnspeed (this one needs the most testing). speed pad. Medic - do something with syringe guns, fix weapons Sniper - reduce maximum headshot damage to 300 (see: Heavy), increase the effect of flinching, slightly improve SMG power, possibly give an item that lets the Sniper jump higher to get in unexpected positions? Spy - buff cloak and disguise, give new toys, fix all hitbox and hitreg issues that would affect backstabs Those are just some of the main core changes I want to happen to each class. Unlocks are another matter entirely. Anyway, doing this would not make the game about counterpicks. There are certainly counters, but, for instance, if you play Pyro, theoretically you should be able to beat Soldier and Demoman (not necessarily), but you should be on pretty even ground with a Scout. Sniper and Heavy destroy you, of course. Heavy would be on pretty equal ground with Demoman and Soldier, at their optimal ranges, after these changes, but would still mow down Pyro. Spy destroys the unaware and is destroyed when he's found out, so making it harder to find him out before he gets the kill is how you balance him. After these changes, hopefully Sniper would be the same way, getting destroyed the when he's found out instead of making the entire team avoid a sightline, so giving him tools to reach much less noticeable and/or unexpected areas would be good for him. Scout should be on equal ground with Pyro, and he destroys Demoman if he gets close enough. However, a Sentry Gun will completely halt him. It's not about counterpicks, it's about creating a balanced set of classes that interact with each other in very complicated ways, most of which we know of by now. Some classes do counter each other, but other classes are on basically level ground with each other (after these changes).