TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53117008]Seems like a rocket shot from a soldier can go through the soldier if he uses a teleporter to move far away in front of it.[/QUOTE] I wonder if it's the same for the Pyro with reflects.

don't think there's a single projectile that the owner can collide with projectiles spawning inside the shooter's hitbox is why point-blank reflects never miss

[QUOTE=comet1337;53117242]don't think there's a single projectile that the owner can collide with projectiles spawning inside the shooter's hitbox is why point-blank reflects never miss[/QUOTE] Wrap Assassin ball maybe

Will we ever see anything that supports custom decals ever again?

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53117548]Will we ever see anything that supports custom decals ever again?[/QUOTE] Seeing how even sprays are fucky on Valve servers, I don't think so

Which is odd because apart from the concious objector and the TF2 medals there are no other items that use that system.

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53116695]Panic attack isn't broken. If the damage per normal shotgun pellet is X, and it shoots ten pellets, the damage is 10X, the Panic Attack shoots 15 pellets that do .7X damage. 15 times .7X is 10.5X Then if the total shotgun damage (90) is X, and the Panic Attack damage is 1.05X, 1.05 times 90 is 94.5, and the weapon does 94 at point blank. Works at the stats show, even though it's not very good.[/QUOTE] This shows why the current system of communicating weapon stats isn't very good. They're just showing the guts of the system without giving any practical information about the end results and it can be quite misleading. These tables are infinitely more useful: [img]https://i.imgur.com/arYbdxp.png[/img] Making these a bit more concise and user-friendly to show stats in the actual game would be a big improvement. I.e. here's how stats are displayed right now: [quote] [b]THE PANIC ATTACK[/b] +50% bullets per shot This weapon deploys 50% faster Fires a fixed shot pattern -30% damage penalty Successive shots become less accurate[/quote] Here's how they could be displayed instead: [quote] [b]THE PANIC ATTACK[/b] [b]Unique Stats:[/b] Pellet count: 15 (+5) Deploy time: 0.25s (-0.25s) Max damage per shot: 95 (+5) [b]Unique Attributes:[/b] Fires a fixed shot pattern Successive shots get less accurate [/quote] This is the actual information players care about. Nobody gives a shit about arbitrary percentages the meanings of which shift according to how Valve wrote the code, you want to know exactly what happens to a guy when you click on him.

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53117603]Which is odd because apart from the concious objector and the TF2 medals there are no other items that use that system.[/QUOTE] it isn't odd. it's just yet another abandoned experiment

10 quid that killstreak kits will be a bonus item in the next big boy update

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53117603]Which is odd because apart from the concious objector and the TF2 medals there are no other items that use that system.[/QUOTE] The Sandvich Safe is also set up for decals but Valve never enabled it, at least according to the wiki. I'm guessing Valve saw that people love to put porn and swastikas all over anything decalable and dropped the idea.

spy main complaint: I no longer have a way to run around and push the limits of my aim. Meatshots on Scout just aren't the same, the Revolver isn't as satisfying and the Ambassador's range limit is infuriatingly restrictive. And no, playing Classic Sniper isn't the same. I considered McCree and Overwatch as an alternative, but that game has devolved into a [B]quad tank[/B] meta since I last played it. Every time I think Overwatch can't get any worse, it does. I'm just kinda bummed. One of my favorite weapons in Spy's kit just isn't fun to use anymore, and I can't find an alternative anywhere else in or out of TF2 to fill in that void. Makes me wish I'd played more TF2 in the time leading up to Jungle Inferno.

How about decrease the Ambassador's crit falloff by 50% so it stops critting at 1800 HU instead of 1200?

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117774]spy main complaint: [B]One of my favorite weapons in Spy's kit just isn't fun to use anymore[/B][/QUOTE] You can take solace in the fact that it's at least not infuriating to play against anymore.

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53117782]How about decrease the Ambassador's crit falloff by 50% so it stops critting at 1800 HU instead of 1200?[/QUOTE] Keep or extend the damage falloff range but remove the headshot limit entirely. The headshot range limit ruins the entire point of the damn weapon, which is to train your aim. Does anyone actually think that unlimited-range 51 damage headshots (that are incredibly difficult to hit at longer ranges when compared to a Sniper unscoped bodyshot or a charged Sniper bodyshot) are game-breaking? I highly doubt it.

Just revert the ambassador nerf.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53117791]You can take solace in the fact that it's at least not infuriating to play against anymore.[/QUOTE] yeah now it's a downgrade that's not even fun to use

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117794]Keep or extend the damage falloff range but remove the headshot limit entirely. The headshot range limit ruins the entire point of the damn weapon, which is to train your aim. Does anyone actually think that unlimited-range 51 damage headshots (that are incredibly difficult to hit at longer ranges when compared to a Sniper unscoped bodyshot or a charged Sniper bodyshot) are game-breaking? I highly doubt it.[/QUOTE] Really no one should be engaging at that range in the first place. If Spy didn't get to see how much health his targets had that'd be a different question. Not only does it give him vital information that distinguishes whether it's worth taking a shot or not, but it acts as a makeshift QTE indicator which just has no real place in an FPS. Sure getting pegged for 50 at range isn't gamebreaking, but it being on Spy just makes it annoying. There has to be some line drawn between where the Spy's spy tools (disguise, cloak, health/uber peeking, sapper, backstabs) are allowed to work in tandem with his guns (pew pew).

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117774]Meatshots on Scout just aren't the same,[/QUOTE] wait what

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53117835]Really no one should be engaging at that range in the first place. If Spy didn't get to see how much health his targets had that'd be a different question.[/quote] [quote]Sure getting pegged for 50 at range isn't gamebreaking, but it being on Spy just makes it annoying. There has to be some line drawn between where the Spy's spy tools (disguise, cloak, health/uber peeking, sapper, backstabs) are allowed to work in tandem with his guns (pew pew).[/QUOTE] You know what does similar or more damage to an Ambassador headshot (51) at its current max range? And, for that matter, would continue doing this damage at an unlimited range? [B]Scout[/B] Guillotine: 50 damage, no falloff [B]Soldier[/B] Rocket Launcher: 48 damage Direct Hit: [B]59-152 damage[/B] Cow Mangler (Charge): [B]122 damage + 80 afterburn[/B] [B]Pyro[/B] Flares: 30 damage + 60 afterburn Scorch Shot: 20 damage + 60 afterburn Flare-Crits: [B]90 damage + 60 afterburn[/B] Detonator Minicrit: [B]30 damage + 60 afterburn + whatever damage the explosion does, up to 25[/B] [B]Demoman[/B] Every Grenade Launcher: [B]100 damage[/B] Sticky Launcher: [B]103-138 damage[/B] Quickie Launcher w/ Charge: [B]109 damage[/B] [B]Heavy[/B] got me there [B]Engineer[/B] Sentry Rockets: 50 note: sentry radius is 1100 HU, its hitscan DPS of anywhere from 64 to 256 (depending on level/wrangler usage) is not prone to falloff [B]Medic[/B] Crusader's Crossbow: [B]75 damage (due to reverse falloff)[/B] [B]Sniper[/B] Huntsman body:[B] 50-120[/B] Huntsman head: [B]150-360[/B] (note: scopes = easier headshots) Stock body/Sydney Sleeper: [B]50-150[/B] Stock head: [B]150-450[/B] Machina/Shooting Star body: [B]50-173[/B] Machina/Shooting Star head: [B]150-518[/B] [B]Spy[/B] Amby: 51 (duh) Diamondback crits (no headshot required): [B]102[/B] So if you're keeping up there, almost everyone has something better than or roughly equivalent to Ambassador headshots...and these are all easier to execute. Even a supposed short-range class like the Pyro can pull off skillshots with Flares, as can Soldiers and Demomen. The only class without any kind of ranged utility is the Heavy, though even that can be alleviated with a Kritz charge or random crits. Oh yeah. Kritz and random crits! Ambassador doesn't benefit from those and the Spy primaries that do benefit much less than everyone else's weapons! So, remind me why it's not acceptable for Spy to have a long-range skillshot weapon? Cause, sans Heavy, everyone else does, and they can use theirs much more easily. [quote]Not only does it give him vital information that distinguishes whether it's worth taking a shot or not, but it acts as a makeshift QTE indicator which just has no real place in an FPS.[/quote] ...what? How is seeing enemy health and using that to decide whether or not to shoot them a QTE indicator? How is hitting long-range headshots a QTE?

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117908]You know what does similar or more damage to an Ambassador headshot (51) at its current max range? And, for that matter, would continue doing this damage at an unlimited range? [B]Scout[/B] Guillotine: 50 damage, no falloff [I][B]banned in 6s, but it can be dodged[/B][/I] [B]Soldier[/B] Rocket Launcher: 48 damage Direct Hit: [B]59-152 damage[/B] Cow Mangler (Charge): [B]122 damage + 80 afterburn[/B] [B][I]direct hit ought to be changed, but rockets can be dodged[/I][/B] [B]Pyro[/B] Flares: 30 damage + 60 afterburn Scorch Shot: 20 damage + 60 afterburn Flare-Crits: [B]90 damage + 60 afterburn[/B] Detonator Minicrit: [B]30 damage + 60 afterburn + whatever damage the explosion does, up to 25[/B] [B][I]flares can be dodged, scorch shot needs changing[/I][/B] [B]Demoman[/B] Every Grenade Launcher: [B]100 damage[/B] Sticky Launcher: [B]103-138 damage[/B] Quickie Launcher w/ Charge: [B]109 damage[/B] [B][I]all can be dodged, and you can get right up close to the demoman to murder him (though i think stickies need a bit of work)[/I][/B] [B]Heavy[/B] got me there [B]Engineer[/B] Sentry Rockets: 50 note: sentry radius is 1100 HU, its hitscan DPS of anywhere from 64 to 256 (depending on level/wrangler usage) is not prone to falloff [B][I]easily dodged, and i'm not sure why this is here. the sentry is easily destroyed[/I][/B] [B]Medic[/B] Crusader's Crossbow: [B]75 damage (due to reverse falloff)[/B] [B][I]can be dodged[/I][/B] [B]Sniper[/B] Huntsman body:[B] 50-120[/B] Huntsman head: [B]150-360[/B] (note: scopes = easier headshots) Stock body/Sydney Sleeper: [B]50-150[/B] Stock head: [B]150-450[/B] Machina/Shooting Star body: [B]50-173[/B] Machina/Shooting Star head: [B]150-518[/B] [B][I]huntsman can be dodged, fuck rifles[/I][/B] [B]Spy[/B] Amby: 51 (duh) Diamondback crits (no headshot required): [B]102[/B] [B][I]diamondback needs changing, ambassador needs a new purpose, because fuck the old version and the new one is too weak.[/I][/B] So if you're keeping up there, almost everyone has something better than or roughly equivalent to Ambassador headshots...and these are all easier to execute. Even a supposed short-range class like the Pyro can pull off skillshots with Flares, as can Soldiers and Demomen. The only class without any kind of ranged utility is the Heavy, though even that can be alleviated with a Kritz charge or random crits. Oh yeah. Kritz and random crits! Ambassador doesn't benefit from those and the Spy primaries that do benefit much less than everyone else's weapons! [B][I]random crits are entirely irrelevant to discussions about balance, and spy is too squishy for a kritz charge, anyway (usually given to demoman or heavy, soldier flashed sometimes)[/I][/B] So, remind me why it's not acceptable for Spy to have a long-range skillshot weapon? Cause, sans Heavy, everyone else does, and they can use theirs much more easily. [B][I]theirs are usually easily dodged projectiles (direct hit needs changing, and previous sandman obviously was too powerful)[/I][/B] ...what? How is seeing enemy health and using that to decide whether or not to shoot them a QTE indicator? How is hitting long-range headshots a QTE?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117908]So, remind me why it's not acceptable for Spy to have a long-range skillshot weapon? Cause, sans Heavy, everyone else does, and they can use theirs much more easily.[/QUOTE] err cause ambassador is a revolver sidegrade and doesn't deserve a free pass to be anything above that. just because diamondback is retarded doesn't mean other guns should be as bad - everyone is anxiously waiting for the diamond nerf. all those other weapons you mention are limited by being projectiles or having expensive reloads. personally I think pipes and crossbows are way too strong but i'm the minority.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53117932]err cause ambassador is a revolver sidegrade and doesn't deserve a free pass to be anything above that. just because diamondback is retarded doesn't mean other guns should be as bad - everyone is anxiously waiting for the diamond nerf. all those other weapons you mention are limited by being projectiles or having expensive reloads. personally I think pipes and crossbows are way too strong but i'm the minority.[/QUOTE] I seriously doubt anyone will disagree that the current crossbow is overpowered but it goes into the same box as the ubersaw, its the kind of OP people are fine with

[B]HALT[/B] While I think the ambassador nerf should be reconsidered, the points about the other classes having [I]reliable[/I] prenerf ambassador damage seem a bit questionable. Most of these things are reflectable, avoidable projectiles that are not instant critical damage checks like the ambassador headshot. This is the problem with sniper, is that unlike everybody else, he deals all his damage at once from often complete safety, unavoidably and without any reasonable counterplay besides the skill needed to pull it off, and map elements. Unlike overwatch, this game lacks anti-sniper mechanics, which is why they dominate the high level metagame. [I]Do not give this to spy.[/I] I get the point of McCree and aim based gameplay but you don't see him being picked in place of widowmaker do you? 2nd cloaking sniper is what happens when you don't rein in the ambassador's range, and I think everybody agreed that was a bit silly considering that it basically took over the spy's role.

you're completely ignoring the idea that maybe, just maybe, a class based entirely on playing stealthily and carefully choosing engagements shouldn't have weapons that put him on equal footing with frontline combat classes in a direct confrontation

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53117932]pipes and crossbows are way too strong but i'm the minority.[/QUOTE] I think pipes should do 75 damage. Maybe give him 6 pills in the clip?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53117948]I think pipes should do 75 damage. Maybe give him 6 pills in the clip?[/QUOTE] it'd be interesting to see what happens if they had ramp-up fall-off as everything else

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117908]So if you're keeping up there, almost everyone has something better than or roughly equivalent to Ambassador headshots...and these are all easier to execute. Even a supposed short-range class like the Pyro can pull off skillshots with Flares, as can Soldiers and Demomen. The only class without any kind of ranged utility is the Heavy, though even that can be alleviated with a Kritz charge or random crits.[/quote]So your counterargument is that projectiles are more effective at range than hitscan despite being pathetically easy to sidestep at such distances. The only class with that type of instant damage feedback is -- surprise -- the Sniper class. [QUOTE=Contra132;53117908]Oh yeah. Kritz and random crits! Ambassador doesn't benefit from those and the Spy primaries that do benefit much less than everyone else's weapons![/quote]Don't summon ASIC again. [QUOTE=Contra132;53117908]So, remind me why it's not acceptable for Spy to have a long-range skillshot weapon? Cause, sans Heavy, everyone else does, and they can use theirs much more easily.[/quote]I don't have a problem with him having a skillshot weapon. I [i]do[/i] however have a problem with having tools that lower the bar for entry or nullify any risk that comes with opening fire and blowing your cover. I want there to be a tangible tradeoff aside from "you have to aim better" because what winds up happening is you get wannabe Snipers who don't have the restrictions of Sniper and fighting someone who actually was decent with it was more akin to fighting someone with a railgun than it was fighting a stealth/assassin class. [QUOTE=Contra132;53117908]...what? How is seeing enemy health and using that to decide whether or not to shoot them a QTE indicator? How is hitting long-range headshots a QTE?[/QUOTE] When an enemy walks into your crosshair, their health and name pop up on the screen acting as a makeshift "SHOOT NOW" indicator. It's obviously not exactly a QTE since you have to place the crosshair somewhere and either wait for someone to walk into it or try to readjust your aim based on their movement, but the sentiment is still there.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117794]Keep or extend the damage falloff range but remove the headshot limit entirely. The headshot range limit ruins the entire point of the damn weapon, which is to train your aim. Does anyone actually think that unlimited-range 51 damage headshots (that are incredibly difficult to hit at longer ranges when compared to a Sniper unscoped bodyshot or a charged Sniper bodyshot) are game-breaking? I highly doubt it.[/QUOTE] What's the limit on headshots? I thought they did less crit damage then stopped critting with range.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53117952]it'd be interesting to see what happens if they had ramp-up fall-off as everything else[/QUOTE] Yeah. Maybe give the same falloff ratio as rockets for direct hits, but rollers can still do the same damage as directs (with falloff) if they're right at the feet of the enemy?

re: blackavar fix your formatting also kaiga makes your argument but better so that's the one I'm gonna respond to [QUOTE=Kaiga;53117940][B]HALT[/B] While I think the ambassador nerf should be reconsidered, the points about the other classes having [I]reliable[/I] prenerf ambassador damage seem a bit questionable.[/QUOTE] I didn't argue that they had reliable prenerf Ambassador damage, I was comparing them to the current 51 damage max-range headshots. [quote]Most of these things are reflectable, avoidable projectiles that are not instant critical damage checks like the ambassador headshot.[/quote] While it's true that projectiles do not do their damage instantly, they are significantly easier to do this damage with at max falloff range than the Ambassador. Airshots are easier to execute than long-range Amby headshots, at least for me, and I spend more time on hitscan than anything else. Your personal skill may change the validity of this point- ie maybe hitscan is the easiest but projectiles are impossible for you. [QUOTE]This is the problem with sniper, is that unlike everybody else, he deals all his damage at once from often complete safety, unavoidably and without any reasonable counterplay besides the skill needed to pull it off, and map elements. Unlike overwatch, this game lacks anti-sniper mechanics, which is why they dominate the high level metagame.[/QUOTE] Issue is, I'm not talking about Sniper. I literally just want the ability to do 51 damage headshots, regardless of range, as a reward for my skill development. This is a third of a quickscope headshot, and equivalent or less than the damage you get from weapons like the Crossbow or Direct Hit, which require less precision to use. Also, Snipers really only dominate Highlander. Sniper is the most popular offclass in 6s, yes, but he isn't run fulltime due to the number of high-mobility classes in play who can punish him. [quote][I]Do not give this to spy.[/I] I get the point of McCree and aim based gameplay but you don't see him being picked in place of widowmaker do you? 2nd cloaking sniper is what happens when you don't rein in the ambassador's range, and I think everybody agreed that was a bit silly considering that it basically took over the spy's role.[/quote] Widowmaker is irrelevant in Overwatch's current meta, and so is McCree. In fact every fucking DPS is irrelevant in the quad-tank meta, because it's 4 tanks and 2 healers. It's an atrocity. Overwatch traded skilled mechanical gameplay for stacking tanks and ults. 51 damage skillshots are not an affront to balance, and are hardly impossible to counterplay. I'm not asking for unlimited range 102s again. I just want the Ambassador to be fun to use.