TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=TWKUK;53117947]you're completely ignoring the idea that maybe, just maybe, a class based entirely on playing stealthily and carefully choosing engagements shouldn't have weapons that put him on equal footing with frontline combat classes in a direct confrontation[/QUOTE] And there's the issue with Spy as a class. At the moment, he has no tools that allow him to continue getting picks if the enemy team is aware of him. Really, he doesn't have any tools that allow him to make a single pick without dying, really (though I've made a couple of weapon suggestions that could fix that). So the real question of Spy balance is how we can allow Spy to continue to make picks when the enemy team is aware of him?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53117974]And there's the issue with Spy as a class. At the moment, he has no tools that allow him to continue getting picks if the enemy team is aware of him. Really, he doesn't have any tools that allow him to make a single pick without dying, really (though I've made a couple of weapon suggestions that could fix that). So the real question of Spy balance is how we can allow Spy to continue to make picks when the enemy team is aware of him?[/QUOTE] A stealth class that isn't stealthy should be dead -- he's outnumbered and outgunned, if he loses the element of surprise he should have nothing left other than tools to mask an escape/repositioning, his guns are weak on purpose. Spy does just fine getting assassination kills [i]when working as a team[/i] to form multi-pronged attacks. Recon is one thing, but his most optimal time to strike is when people are distracted by things happening. Have your team make noise and they will attract the opponent's attention and clog up their comms as they react to it, this is the optimal time for Spy to get work done because even the most skillful and paranoid players cannot have 100% clarity all of the time.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53117956]When an enemy walks into your crosshair, their health and name pop up on the screen acting as a makeshift "SHOOT NOW" indicator. It's obviously not exactly a QTE since you have to place the crosshair somewhere and either wait for someone to walk into it or try to readjust your aim based on their movement, but the sentiment is still there.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's a really dumb argument, I'm sorry. Health popups do nothing to help with Amby Spy, and are distracting and difficult to deal with at long range, especially when trying to, say, actually read the data within (like ubercharges). If you SHOOT NOW whenever you see someone's health pop up, you will almost never land the headshot unless you were already aiming for their head to begin with. This point is irrelevant. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53117956]So your counterargument is that projectiles are more effective at range than hitscan despite being pathetically easy to sidestep at such distances. The only class with that type of instant damage feedback is -- surprise -- the Sniper class.[/quote] You can hit airshots on people well past the Ambassador's current headshot range, and do so much more easily at that. People can only do so much to control their in-air trajectory to dodge projectiles. Onfoot, long-range spam into chokes and other factors often make "dodging" irrelevant, and instead bring to mind questions of positioning. Additionally, people with good prediction will still hit these long-range projectiles: can you not reliably hit direct rockets past the range of the 2fort bridge? Because that's pretty damn easy. [quote]I don't have a problem with him having a skillshot weapon. I [I]do[/I] however have a problem with having tools that lower the bar for entry or nullify any risk that comes with opening fire and blowing your cover. I want there to be a tangible tradeoff aside from "you have to aim better" because what winds up happening is you get wannabe Snipers who don't have the restrictions of Sniper and fighting someone who actually was decent with it was more akin to fighting someone with a railgun than it was fighting a stealth/assassin class.[/quote] [B]51 damage does not make a second Sniper. [/B]also the tradeoff is that the Ambassador is still a much less reliable weapon than the Revolver, and outright worse than it when using it at close-midrange.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53117973]re: blackavar fix your formatting also kaiga makes your argument but better so that's the one I'm gonna respond to I didn't argue that they had reliable prenerf Ambassador damage, I was comparing them to the current 51 damage max-range headshots. While it's true that projectiles do not do their damage instantly, they are significantly easier to do this damage with at max falloff range than the Ambassador. Airshots are easier to execute than long-range Amby headshots, at least for me, and I spend more time on hitscan than anything else. Your personal skill may change the validity of this point- ie maybe hitscan is the easiest but projectiles are impossible for you. Issue is, I'm not talking about Sniper. I literally just want the ability to do 51 damage headshots, regardless of range, as a reward for my skill development. This is a third of a quickscope headshot, and equivalent or less than the damage you get from weapons like the Crossbow or Direct Hit, which require less precision to use. Also, Snipers really only dominate Highlander. Sniper is the most popular offclass in 6s, yes, but he isn't run fulltime due to the number of high-mobility classes in play who can punish him. Widowmaker is irrelevant in Overwatch's current meta, and so is McCree. In fact every fucking DPS is irrelevant in the quad-tank meta, because it's 4 tanks and 2 healers. It's an atrocity. Overwatch traded skilled mechanical gameplay for stacking tanks and ults. 51 damage skillshots are not an affront to balance, and are hardly impossible to counterplay. I'm not asking for unlimited range 102s again. I just want the Ambassador to be fun to use.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYYq3oMeKJI&feature=youtu.be&t="]An amusing rebuttal to this, as even though this particular user is shitposting for attention and salty about the ambassador nerf, his video does ironically convey that it's still possible to use the ambassador to effect against enemies with enough skill. [/URL] If he had hit 40% more of those shots, it would have been even more convincing. It seems like your 51 damage shots are the only thing wrong with the nerf.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53117974]And there's the issue with Spy as a class. At the moment, he has no tools that allow him to continue getting picks if the enemy team is aware of him. Really, he doesn't have any tools that allow him to make a single pick without dying, really (though I've made a couple of weapon suggestions that could fix that). So the real question of Spy balance is how we can allow Spy to continue to make picks when the enemy team is aware of him?[/QUOTE] I feel like what Spy needs more of is utility weapons. Things that give him extra tricks to mess with the opposing team's expectations. But he's had the same three watches for nine whole years, and the same disguises for even longer. All of his tricks have become predictable. But I think if some new watches and/or an alternative disguise kit were added, it could do a lot to shake up the anti-Spy meta.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53118020][URL="https://youtu.be/fYYq3oMeKJI?t=33"]An amusing rebuttal to this, as even though this particular user is shitposting for attention and salty about the ambassador nerf, his video does ironically convey that it's still possible to use the ambassador to effect against enemies with enough skill. [/URL] If he had hit 40% more of those shots, it would have been even more convincing. It seems like your 51 damage shots are the only thing wrong with the nerf.[/quote] He was playing at close range against pubbers with no concept of movement. He'd have been better with the Revolver in the first clip. That Pyro in the second clip kept running back and forth in his sightline and took three headshots to take down. A few of the headshots made at the end of falloff range were somewhat impressive, but that's where the hard skill ceiling for the Ambassador is now, versus the virtually endless one it used to have. Shitpost pub frags are not a rebuttal. The Ambassador is still weaker than any Spy primary not called "The Enforcer", and the fun of it has been severely diminished for people who were using it as an actual aim training tool.

You should be able to fake reload when disguised by pressing r at any time. Having your disguise do something besides just walk could do a lot, at least in pubs.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53118039]Shitpost pub frags are not a rebuttal.[/QUOTE] You're the one complaining that Ambassador can't do random crits.

How about we give the Heavy the Huntsman but he throws the arrows instead of using teeny stick and string

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53118045]You're the one complaining that Ambassador can't do random crits.[/QUOTE] That wasn't a complaint, that was a data point. Same for the Diamondback, which I've stated repeatedly is overpowered and stupid and wasn't using as a reason the Ambassador should be allowed to do unlimited-range 51 damage headshots. Also, re-clarifying: [B]I'M NOT ASKING FOR PRE-NERF AMBASSADOR BACK. I KNOW UNLIMITED RANGE 102s ARE BROKEN. [I]I JUST WANT THE WEAPON TO BE FUN AGAIN.[/I][/B]

Remove crit fallof, and make it so it only minicrits past the distance threshold? Crit fallof is a stupid mechanic, especially when only 1 weapon in the entire game has it.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53118053]That wasn't a complaint, that was a data point.[/QUOTE] That data point will be meaningless when the TF2 Team finally purges the game of random crits for good.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53118053] [B][I]I JUST WANT THE WEAPON TO BE FUN AGAIN.[/I][/B][/QUOTE] fun for you or fun for both parties in combat

[QUOTE=DrCactus;53118067]Remove crit fallof, and make it so it only minicrits past the distance threshold? Crit fallof is a stupid mechanic, especially when only 1 weapon in the entire game has it.[/QUOTE] That's what I initially proposed back on TF.TV when the inaccuracy nerf was first proposed. It was the highest-rated response to Jill's comment about it, and TF.TV was the most vocal about the inaccuracy being stupid. I'm pretty sure that's why they decided against it... In favor of another nerf that makes the Ambassador functionally inconsistent with every other weapon in the game, a downgrade to its alternatives and just plain not fun if you were actually good with it. Thanks, TF Team. [QUOTE=Blackavar;53118068]That data point will be meaningless when the TF2 Team finally purges the game of random crits for good.[/QUOTE] If. [B]If[/B] they do it. I want it just as badly as you do, but No-Crits has been the prominent voice in the debate for more than a few years now and it still hasn't changed. Right now, the data point does matter, because Spy doesn't really benefit much from random crits while classes like Demoman, Soldier, Pyro, Medic and Heavy do.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53118053][I][B]I JUST WANT THE WEAPON TO BE FUN AGAIN.[/I][/B][/QUOTE] well tough luck man. old bfb, backburner, splendid, FoS, quickie, cleaners were incredibly fun too. Get in line.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53118072]fun for you or fun for both parties in combat[/QUOTE] I don't know, I don't think people are happy when they die in general, regardless of how it happened. And if you got picked off from across the map by a 51 damage headshot...you're probably at fault. [editline]8th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Hell-met;53118092]well tough luck man. old bfb, backburner, splendid, FoS, quickie, cleaners were incredibly fun too. Get in line.[/QUOTE] Backburner is still really good, especially with the Jetpack. Quickie is strong in the right hands, and Carbine is still my favorite Sniper secondary. I like it more with its current design than past designs. Also, other weapons being nerfed or changed in ways that make them unfun to use doesn't make the Ambassador's current status acceptable. Every weapon in this game should at [I]least[/I] be fun, even if it isn't totally viable.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53118092]well tough luck man. old bfb, backburner, splendid, FoS, quickie, cleaners were incredibly fun too. Get in line.[/QUOTE] You mean the original backburner with +50HP? Because Pyro with 337 HP with overheal sounds pretty unfun. Especially now with the flame mechanics.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53118093] Backburner is still really good, especially with the Jetpack. Quickie is strong in the right hands, and Carbine is still my favorite Sniper secondary. I like it more with its current design than past designs. Also, other weapons being nerfed or changed in ways that make them unfun to use doesn't make the Ambassador's current status acceptable. Every weapon in this game should at [I]least[/I] be fun, even if it isn't totally viable.[/QUOTE] why are you talking about performance now? you keep saying all you want is fun.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53118053]That wasn't a complaint, that was a data point. Same for the Diamondback, which I've stated repeatedly is overpowered and stupid and wasn't using as a reason the Ambassador should be allowed to do unlimited-range 51 damage headshots. Also, re-clarifying: [B]I'M NOT ASKING FOR PRE-NERF AMBASSADOR BACK. I KNOW UNLIMITED RANGE 102s ARE BROKEN. [I]I JUST WANT THE WEAPON TO BE FUN AGAIN.[/I][/B][/QUOTE] And that's a completely reasonable request.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53118053]That wasn't a complaint, that was a data point. Same for the Diamondback, which I've stated repeatedly is overpowered and stupid and wasn't using as a reason the Ambassador should be allowed to do unlimited-range 51 damage headshots. Also, re-clarifying: [B]I'M NOT ASKING FOR PRE-NERF AMBASSADOR BACK. I KNOW UNLIMITED RANGE 102s ARE BROKEN. [I]I JUST WANT THE WEAPON TO BE FUN AGAIN.[/I][/B][/QUOTE] If your idea of fun is sniping people, maybe you should try playing the class built around that premise.

[t]https://files.catbox.moe/qmtwys.jpg[/t] didnt even know that thing existed

[QUOTE=Drury;53118134]If your idea of fun is sniping people, maybe you should try playing the class built around that premise.[/QUOTE] Playing Sniper and playing Amby Spy do not feel anything alike. One allows free movement, the other doesn't. One offers a scope for easier aiming, the other doesn't. Sniper does not provide anything close to the experience that I'm missing from Ambassador Spy.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53118184][t]https://files.catbox.moe/qmtwys.jpg[/t] didnt even know that thing existed[/QUOTE] You doged a bullet man, was about to unbox a 15 cent item.

[QUOTE=qubestf2;53118203]You doged a bullet man, was about to unbox a 15 cent item.[/QUOTE] ill prove you wrong EDIT: [t]https://files.catbox.moe/po38vv.png[/t]

[QUOTE=Fluury;53118048]How about we give the Heavy the Huntsman but he throws the arrows instead of using teeny stick and string[/QUOTE] Give heavy Lawn Darts. Which would technically just look like darts when he holds them, but whatever.

I stand by my assertion that if Spy mains want a combat revolver sidegrade, it needs to either have huge health or huge cloak downsides to make it balanced. Something like -25 health, -25% cloak duration.

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53118346]I stand by my assertion that if Spy mains want a combat revolver sidegrade, it needs to either have huge health or huge cloak downsides to make it balanced. Something like -25 health, -25% cloak duration.[/QUOTE] I prefer a massive increase in cloak and decloak fade time. In other words, if the Spy wants to get away, they have to sacrifice how well they can get away from incoming opponents.

I just find it funny that the new ambassador is so bad that the enforcer looks good now.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53118459]I just find it funny that the new ambassador is so bad that the enforcer looks good now.[/QUOTE] The Enforcer is completely broken, seems that every kind of resistance is coded different to it only bypasses like Vaccinator shields and the FoS, and I think it does default damage against weapons with a damage vulnerability like the Powerjack.

What if we gave the Spy a revolver that's really good in combat, but can not cloak until he switches to his knife? One of the biggest doubts I have about empowering the "figthing / combat" Spy is that he could do a good amount of damage / kill his enemies and run away easily (stretching into the Scout territory, or the old Dead Ringer). If we focused the downsides into his health or cloak as Rajikaru says, it could work. Spy should trade cloak / survavility for damage. Maybe we could give him a weapon that's good for finishing off enemies that are low on health (kinda taking ideas from the Reaper class from XCOM: WOTC), extremely good at scouting and killing weakened targets. Low ammo on clip and lengthy reload / bad at running away if you're spotted and the target focus you down.