TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53124371]And now tf2 is in Rabbidluigi's Top Five Worst Tutorials in Video Games,hope that valve can do something about it in like 2 or 3 updates from now.[/QUOTE] How do you think it could it be improved? Obviously, one should add the tutorials for the rest of the classes. So other than that. (I haven't watched that video yet or heard of that guy before now). Anyways, something interesting is that only like around 15% of players have the ready for duty achievement.

[QUOTE=Kiwi;53123857]It’s a ruse. It’s actually 4fort.[/QUOTE] There actually was a 4fort in QWTF. It was never finished though as jumping into the water got you trapped as there was no way out outside of blast jumping out. Don't think it ever got recreated/finished in TFC either. Featured all 4 teams as well. [t]http://quake.ravnwood.com/quake_tf/maps/pictures/4fortx.jpg[/t] Anywho, random information aside. I still want a special map created that is made for just pure DMing. One that has no objectives and goes on for a long set amount of time where people can just go for frags and play as they wish. But make it that it teaches them how to play the class as well with tips and what not to help people understand what their classes can actually do. In these scenarios team composition doesn't matter nearly as much so learning how to play off classes is a bit easier to do. A Map designed to work with all 9 classes rather well.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53124467]How do you think it could it be improved?[/QUOTE] You could have separate tutorials for each class' basics. Teaching them in-depth and not with some bullet points on the class screen, let a bot show the player what the class 'can' do and let the player replicate that. (akin to Spy's tutorial). And then when they've learnt each class' basics, give them advanced. Which would be separate entirely and teach things like strafing, advanced rocket jumping, sentry jumping, aim tracking as heavy/sniper, etc. And when they're done, give them a graduation cap cosmetic as an incentive to want to learn past basics.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53124480] Anywho, random information aside. I still want a special map created that is made for just pure DMing. One that has no objectives and goes on for a long set amount of time where people can just go for frags and play as they wish. But make it that it teaches them how to play the class as well with tips and what not to help people understand what their classes can actually do. In these scenarios team composition doesn't matter nearly as much so learning how to play off classes is a bit easier to do. A Map designed to work with all 9 classes rather well.[/QUOTE] ctf_turbine

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53124493]ctf_turbine[/QUOTE] More shooting a map with more variety and game mode that's officially promoted by Valve themselves for the purpose of people to expriment and learn at least the basics to give people an idea on how to play the game and each of it's classes.

How to fix TF2's training problem: At the beginning of the game, there is no training option, simply a pointer telling you to join a Casual server. Upon entering, you're greeted by the Contracker, which has a contract available for each of the 9 classes. These contracts would be very different than the ones we've seen so far. They would be much simpler, asking for such objectives as "Use Ubercharge", "Turn Invisible", "Airblast an opponent", and "Build a Sentry Gun". These would introduce new players to basic concepts. From there, 9 sets of 3-4 contracts appear, 1 for each primary, secondary, melee, and 4th slot weapons. More complicated objectives would appear here, such as "Rocket Jump", "Backstab the enemy Medic", and "Overheal 5 players in one life". If a player doesn't understand a concept, like "Rocket Jump" or "Sticky Jump", there would be a "?" next to each objective that would take the player to the TF2 Wiki page about it, educating the player. After doing those contracts, the player can start earning their weapons, in any order. This would replace the weapon drop system. Items that are not weapons can still be dropped, and scrap metal would drop instead of weapons (at half the rate). Weapons, however, must be earned through this contract system. Each weapon contract would inform the player about how that weapon is weaker or stronger than others. And some contracts would be labelled much more difficult to complete than others. "Hit an airborne opponent" on Direct Hit, for instance. "?" icons would appear next to each weapon that would take them to the wiki page for that weapon. After doing all these contracts, they would have all the weapons and have a mild enough understanding of all of them to choose correctly a weapon for whatever given situation they're in. The solution to TF2's problem of introducing new players to basic concepts has been sitting in front of us ever since Gun Mettle.

Pressing "?" and being greeted by the wall of text that the wiki is is an awful idea and is the nr.1 way of getting people to be uninterested in your game

[QUOTE=Fluury;53124583]Pressing "?" and being greeted by the wall of text that the wiki is is an awful idea and is the nr.1 way of getting people to be uninterested in your game[/QUOTE] Yeah but that's an easy tweak, just have a little tool tip with a basic description show up instead

[QUOTE=ASIC;53124348]Does anyone remember a video with that title (420fort). I remember seeing it some years back. [/QUOTE] I remember that too. I believe it was almost identical to the video below, except at normal speed instead of 2x. [video=youtube;Lz95lOi40bs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz95lOi40bs[/video]

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53124569]...From there, 9 sets of 3-4 contracts appear, 1 for each primary, secondary, [B]melee[/B], and 4th slot weapons...[/QUOTE] I can't wait to see new Snipers running into the middle of a firefight with their Kukris out and dying horribly.

[QUOTE=TcChallenger;53124843]I can't wait to see new Snipers running into the middle of a firefight with their Kukris out and dying horribly.[/QUOTE] I'm not entirely sure how I could make that contract work without it being silly. How about something simple like 0/10 CP: Kill an enemy that gets close to you - 10CP. Just do it once.

we're playing on NA right now JOIN steam://connect/45.77.144.141:27015 doing snowplow now, will vote for what to come

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53124901]we're playing on NA right now JOIN steam://connect/45.77.144.141:27015 doing snowplow now, will vote for what to come[/QUOTE] Cool. Is the reserved slot disabled? EDIT: As of this writing, the server's nowhere near full so the reserved slot is irrelevant.

Facepunch + Watergate = Most fun thirty minutes of TF2 in days for me.

Why do people in insist on playing spy/sniper in mvm? It's always: "I'M REALLY GOOD TRUST ME I CAN PICK GIANT ROBOTS" followed by them running up to robots undisguised trying to pull an epic facestab and blaming everyone else when we lose the mission for the 5th time in a row while they refuse to change class. I don't normally get mad in at a videogame but I legit need a break now because I've been stuck on the same mission on the same wave on Titanium tank for 3 times now, always on wave 2. So fucking infuriating dealing with these kind of players, you're basicly 1 or 2 team members down when you have them.

I wonder if they'll add the ability to switch between the normal and yeti casual badge, or maybe it'll be like CSGO where the scoreboard shows your achievement milestones and operation badges. edit: CSGO's scoreboard shows more info than TF2's and is smaller at the same time. CSGO casual also has 20 players compared to TF2's 24 and the scoreboard still is smaller. edit2: actually TF2's shows more if you count the bit at the bottom that counts more specific stats

[QUOTE=Whomobile;53125205]Why do people in insist on playing spy/sniper in mvm? It's always: "I'M REALLY GOOD TRUST ME I CAN PICK GIANT ROBOTS" followed by them running up to robots undisguised trying to pull an epic facestab and blaming everyone else when we lose the mission for the 5th time in a row while they refuse to change class. I don't normally get mad in at a videogame but I legit need a break now because I've been stuck on the same mission on the same wave on Titanium tank for 3 times now, always on wave 2. So fucking infuriating dealing with these kind of players, you're basicly 1 or 2 team members down when you have them.[/QUOTE] The only time I have ever gone sniper in MVM was when I had the brilliant idea of going to a bootcamp server to try and get the associated achievement I was still missing. The rest of the team was filled with kids, so I figured I might as well go piss rifle sniper and take down the last wave giants by myself. I quickly realized that I wasn't going to make a difference, so I left soon after.

[QUOTE=Stric_Matic;53121914]Playing some Degroot again for contracts, and the melee hit detection makes me both laugh and cry at the same time... Do melee hitscan attacks have prioritizing teammates over enemies coded in? 'Cause whenever a bunch of people pile onto a CP on that map, I've always felt like melee attacks made against an enemy standing right in front of me fail to register several times in a row as long as there's a teammate or two trying to do the same next to me. Then you get situtions where 3 people on RED can't hit one guy on BLU while he melees them down one by one, because apparently the game goes ''whoah there, you didn't hit the enemy right in front of you, you actually hit a teammate standing 2 feet away to the side''. 1v1 melee hits are generally consistent and predictable, throw in a teammate or two and it's the most unreliable toss-up ever. You can virtually butt heads with your opponent and your melee swipes will not register if there's a teammate around. Why is that a thing? Was it always like that or was the hit detection code changed at some point to accomodate weapons like the Disciplinary Action? I can't think of why the hell the game would prioritize hitting teammates over enemies, but I'm almost sure of it after playing quite a bit of Medieval over the years. You just don't notice it elsewhere because in normal modes, you don't have multiple people piling onto a point and trying to melee each other.[/QUOTE] What you're describing is a symptom of how Valve codes hitscan to interact with teammates. To make a long story short, melee weapons are hitscan, and hitscan is interrupted by teammates.

would tf2 be hell a lot better if hitscan bullets (especially sniper's) passes through allies?

[QUOTE=Riorio;53125333]would tf2 be hell a lot better if hitscan bullets (especially sniper's) passes through allies?[/QUOTE] Think it was said already here or on reddit, but sniper rifles besides the Classic and Machina/Hitman's Heatmaker should have some kind of tracer to their shots. Also the Carbine and Heatmaker both have suppressors but they still have muzzleflash. edit: this is more visual than gameplay changing

[QUOTE=Riorio;53125333]would tf2 be hell a lot better if hitscan bullets (especially sniper's) passes through allies?[/QUOTE] It'd be worse because the Sniper's teammates could block your view of him.

I just realized something, valve releasing the new weapons to be only possible to acquire as untradable and free (apart from applying the dragon slayer on the dragon fury) allows them to just remove a weapon if they wanted to without any drawbacks

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53125377]I just realized something, valve releasing the new weapons to be only possible to acquire as untradable and free (apart from applying the dragon slayer on the dragon fury) allows them to just remove a weapon if they wanted to without any drawbacks[/QUOTE] looking like idiots is still a drawback

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53125377]I just realized something, valve releasing the new weapons to be only possible to acquire as untradable and free (apart from applying the dragon slayer on the dragon fury) allows them to just remove a weapon if they wanted to without any drawbacks[/QUOTE] ...That's not how it works at all

[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;53124615]I remember that too. I believe it was almost identical to the video below, except at normal speed instead of 2x. [video=youtube;Lz95lOi40bs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz95lOi40bs[/video][/QUOTE] Yeah, that's (pretty much) what I was thinking of. [editline]12th February 2018[/editline] I am not sure If I saw the faster or slower video, though.

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53125395]...That's not how it works at all[/QUOTE] Can't see what's wrong with it, this can allow feedback earlier in the weapon's development, and if it doesn't work out, just remove it We still have so many useless weapons that needs to be given a unique, fun and balanced playstyles, if you add a weapon that turns out to be useless, that's basically one more new weapon that you need to make, as opposed to revert all and do something else

[QUOTE=Riorio;53125333]would tf2 be hell a lot better if hitscan bullets (especially sniper's) passes through allies?[/QUOTE] Sniper Rifles already do penetrate teammates. They're among the only (if not [i]the[/i] only) hitscan weapons to do so.

Thoughts, after a long Discord discussion about Competitive Matchmaking, goals of balance, and what the real format should look like: - The classes should all be balanced in such a way that they are all [B]useful[/B], but not [B]always[/B] useful. All of them. At the moment, Scout, Soldier, and Demoman are [B]always[/B] useful. Spy, Sniper, Engineer, Pyro, and Heavy are [B]rarely[/B] useful. - In other words, speaking with words I hate, I want the Specialists to be a [B]little[/B] more useful, and the Generalists to be a [B]little[/B] less useful. Making the Specialists more useful (by buffing and altering them in subtle but important ways) can help lower the usage requirements of the Generalists, until we don't have to use either word any more, and can use words like "offensive" "defensive" "pick" "support" "flank", etc etc, to describe a certain class or weapon loadout. - The format ought to be 6v6, class limit 1, in my opinion. In fact, we could do this now, and simply play with it for a while to figure out exactly what is too powerful, what works, what doesn't, until we have a good format. Of course, it'd be much easier if weapons and stats could be altered in the game itself, server-side, on-the-fly. Or if Valve succumbed to our every request. - 5cp cannot be the main gamemode for such a format. The only gamemodes that could theoretically work are A/D+Stopwatch and KOTH. - A/D with Stopwatch gives both teams the opportunity to attack and defend with a different class setup, and whoever attacks the fastest/defends the longest wins. It provides an interesting dynamic of constant pushes from the attacking team, and flanks, tanking, and picks from the defending team. However, no maps exist that are really "good" for competitive. - KOTH, on the other hand, has a couple of standout maps that actually work, being Product and Bagel. KOTH creates the same dynamic as A/D, but instead of the attacking team attacking for an entire match, they only attack until they gain the point, in which they become the defenders, doing the same thing defenders do on A/D (with more room to back up), and having longer spawn times like in A/D. This is what I think mappers need to realize when designing KOTH maps, that it's basically a symmetrical, single-point A/D. - Eventually, I'm going to make a KOTH map that would work even better theoretically with 6s, and act more like proper A/D. Basically, when a team captures the point, they gain a forward spawn that is close enough to the point to act almost like a last on 5cp, requiring the attacking team to make pushes together like they would in A/D. This forward spawn would be very difficult to spawncamp (multiple doors), but spawntimes would be increased for the defending team like on any such map, and once the point is gained, the opposite forward spawn is given to the opposing team. - In a 1-class limit 6v6 environment, where all the classes are useful in many situations, opened are many interesting possibilities for pushes, defenses, and any situation you could think of. On my dream version of KOTH, on my format, gaining the point would have you running toward the forward spawn to change into a more defensive class to protect the point. If a setup is discovered that works [B]always[/B] against any class setup by the enemy team, overpowered or not, things should be changed in some way to encourage class diversity. This is balance. The fact that I can name in order, accurately, best to worst, each class, speaks to Valve's improper treatment of the game's balance. (Medic [most important, not most powerful], Scout, Soldier, Demoman, Pyro [debatable currently], Sniper, Engineer [better than Heavy in current 6s, anyway], Heavy, Spy) Basically: We shouldn't be looking at current 6s to make balance decisions, instead using a 1-class limit 6v6. We really ought to see if the maps we use (5cp) are a part of the problem in competitive. All the classes should be useful [B]most[/B] of the time, but not [B]always[/B], and not [B]rarely[/B].

The main drawback 1 class limit 6v6 is the same problem as highlander, forcing a class to be played when it's not an appropriate situation, in 6s, at least pre jungle inferno, that class would be heavy, a fulltime heavy forces a fulltime sniper, the game slows down to a crawl and no one is having fun, that's why the original prolander (6s 1 class limit) failed, 7v7 has the same problem as well but at least it has some upsides It's a great idea in theory, but before you apply it, you'll need to rebalance the rest of the classes, especially heavy and sniper for the game to play smoothly

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53125441]The main drawback 1 class limit 6v6 is the same problem as highlander, forcing a class to be played when it's not an appropriate situation, in 6s, at least pre jungle inferno, that class would be heavy, a fulltime heavy forces a fulltime sniper, the game slows down to a crawl and no one is having fun, that's why the original prolander (6s 1 class limit) failed, 7v7 has the same problem as well but at least it has some upsides It's a great idea in theory, but before you apply it, you'll need to rebalance the rest of the classes, especially heavy and sniper for the game to play smoothly[/QUOTE] I agree that certain class setups will drag down the game, which is why I said this: "If a setup is discovered that works always against any class setup by the enemy team, overpowered or not, things should be changed in some way to encourage class diversity." Sniper would be very powerful in the format I described. He would need changes. But I'm not opposed to changing all of the classes to be useful in most, but not all, situations. For instance: If you make Engineer more useful in some way, allowing him to be slightly easier to use in defensive situations (faster deploy time, allowing engineer to repair buildings while they're deploying..), Scout suddenly becomes less-useful. But I do believe changing classes to deal with issues brought on by the enemy team is important. If the enemy team gets a Sniper, I believe running Spy to deal with the Sniper should be a valid choice, and the Spy should not have any problems dealing with the Sniper, unless the enemy team prepares for that (Pyro, etc).