TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Fluury;53124583]Pressing "?" and being greeted by the wall of text that the wiki is is an awful idea and is the nr.1 way of getting people to be uninterested in your game[/QUOTE] Also the wiki going down all the time despite being hosted on Valve servers makes it a bad idea.

Class limit 1 has been tried and the pros didn't like it. There's also an argument to be made that limiting to 1 of each class will limit possible strategies rather than increase them. There are only 9 classes, so you know each team will have a scout, a soldier, a demo, a medic, and two flexes. That leaves just a few combos. With current class limits you have way more possibilities in this hypothetical where everyone is useful more often. 5CP is the most played mode because pros far and away like it the most. I think it's the most dynamic map type we have, where teams are working off momentum and dynamically switching from attacking and defending. We already see lots of sniper and spy play with people experimenting with Pyro, though I agree heavy and engi could be more useful. The issues with A/D right now are that the majority are not well designed and the point of the game for red is to stalemate and run out the clock. We can already see in Overwatch League how that can get boring. Things are the way they are because people have been trying things out and seeing what works, what's fun to play, and what's exciting to watch for ten years. Competitive KOTH maps are so small already that forward spawns are unnecessary. There's already a less than 15 second walk to the point itself with a staging area for the offensive team to regroup and stage their attack from.

the only way you're gonna make power classes less useful is by nerfing them and im sure there's alot of people who don't want this

I'd much rather see more playstyles become viable more often rather than nerfing the ones that are already useful. If every class were to be turned into a specialist, the game would feel like "rock, paper, scissors", which is not conductive to skillful or entertaining play.

[QUOTE=Jonii;53125500]scout, a soldier, a demo, a medic, and two flexes[/QUOTE] And I want this to change. I want there to not be infinite situations where Soldier, Scout, and Demoman work. This can be done by altering the other classes. All this theorycrafting I've done comes from a semi-flawed standpoint of "Valve can change things". Valve's hesitation to making core changes to pretty much any of the other classes to help them be more useful is why 6s is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, and 1 medic. And if Valve continues to hesitate, and continue supporting this gamemode which refuses to allow heavy, spy, sniper, and engineer from operating anywhere but in a stalemate on last/second, then there's not much I can do but continue theorycrafting. Also, the forward spawns on my dream version of KOTH are mainly so that you can change into a defensive class from an offensive class basically the instant you get the point. Being away from your team for >15 seconds would allow the enemy team to do a sacrifice play. I want KOTH to be the main gamemode because it allows less mobile classes (especially with forward spawns) to be played consistently, and with changes from Valve, perform better against those classes that have, forever, always been useful in basically every situation. EDIT: [QUOTE=Hell-met;53125503]the only way you're gonna make power classes less useful is by nerfing them and im sure there's alot of people who don't want this[/QUOTE] [B]You don't have to nerf the other classes to make them less useful.[/B] Soldier becomes less useful when a Heavy is in play, and Scout is less useful when an Engineer is in play. The more situations those "off"classes can be used, the less situations those "generalists" can be used, bringing a sort of equilibrium to the amount of situations each class can operate in.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53125509]This can be done by altering the other classes.[/QUOTE] and then you get something like JI pyro

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53125511]and then you get something like JI pyro[/QUOTE] JI Pyro is a result of Valve thinking it's a good idea to make flames simultaneously powerful and requiring no skill to use effectively (whether or not those issues are bugs and not intentional has STILL yet to be seen). You and I both know this.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53125434] This forward spawn would be very difficult to spawncamp (multiple doors), but spawntimes would be increased for the defending team like on any such map, and once the point is gained, the opposite forward spawn is given to the opposing team. [/QUOTE] The defending team already has a longer spawn time on Koth maps than the attacking team. That's why you sometimes see pros not cap the point if someone on their team is about to respawn, since it would increase their respawn time.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;53125515]The defending team already has a longer spawn time on Koth maps than the attacking team. That's why you sometimes see pros not cap the point if someone on their team is about to respawn, since it would increase their respawn time.[/QUOTE] Which is why I said "like on any such map" [editline]12th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Jonii;53125500]Class limit 1 has been tried and the pros didn't like it. There's also an argument to be made that limiting to 1 of each class will limit possible strategies rather than increase them. There are only 9 classes, so you know each team will have a scout, a soldier, a demo, a medic, and two flexes. That leaves just a few combos.[/QUOTE] Pros didn't like a class limit of 1 because right now, it doesn't work. Demoman, Soldier, and Scout, at the moment, are just mildly bothered by the less-useful other classes that don't end up doing much, and it's slow and unfun, especially on 5cp. [quote]With current class limits you have way more possibilities in this hypothetical where everyone is useful more often.[/QUOTE] Not sure what you mean by this. Allowing 2 Scouts and 2 Soldiers would be entirely arbitrary if all the classes were useful often. And, if the classes were all useful it'd be unlikely to actually work well any more. A useful Heavy + Engineer would entirely shut down the Scouts, and a Pyro + Heavy would entirely shut down the Soldiers.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53125517]Which is why I said "like on any such map" [/QUOTE] I feel like adding extra spawns to koth may be over complicating things compared to adjusting spawn timers but hey I could be wrong, it's probably never been tried.

It would be nice to have a shuffle cosmetics option in tf2. Like each time you die your cosmetics equipped is randomized or cycled through.

Via redderp, TF2 is not currently in the top 10 most played games on Steam: [url]http://store.steampowered.com/stats/[/url] ISTR even in the long months pre-JI, TF2 would be in the 6 or 7th slot.

[QUOTE=Ultravod;53125633]Via redderp, TF2 is not currently in the top 10 most played games on Steam: [url]http://store.steampowered.com/stats/[/url] ISTR even in the long months pre-JI, TF2 would be in the 6 or 7th slot.[/QUOTE] I feel like it could be burnout with people playing the contracts and all that, but I don't really know what tf2 demographics look like so I could be wrong.

Has less to do with TF2 and more to do with other games doing well. Rust coming out of Early Access, Civ getting a new expansion, new Warframe update, that all at the same time is going to attract players away from stinky ol tf2. Either way, tonight is the night for something - alright?

[QUOTE=Ultravod;53125633]Via redderp, TF2 is not currently in the top 10 most played games on Steam: [url]http://store.steampowered.com/stats/[/url] ISTR even in the long months pre-JI, TF2 would be in the 6 or 7th slot.[/QUOTE] I would usually say it's caused by a spike in players for a few other games, and while that's true, I don't think I've ever seen TF2 at 22k

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53125701]I would usually say it's caused by a spike in players for a few other games, and while that's true, I don't think I've ever seen TF2 at 22k[/QUOTE] Considering how early it is in the US right now (and on a monday too), it makes sense that not many people are playing at the moment.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53125452]lots of things[/QUOTE] The problem with all these posts is that you've made it almost impossible for anyone to tell you you're wrong by boiling it down to a really simple statement which is true. All you're really saying, is "we could run all the classes if they were good, if they aren't good or too good, make them just good again." And it's like well yeah obviously but that is not something that is ever in the parameters of this game and actually it is so non-specific that it shouldn't even really be counted as a theory. It doesn't hold water and here's why. If you're planning on buffing the defensive characters to the point where they would see play in koth, what is your plan exactly to buff engi where he sets up fast enough for koth, is mobile enough to play against permanent sniper (you will 100% have a sniper at all times in cl1,) and his sentry is good enough that it actually kills people instead of dying to demo/combined fire immediately - then how are you skill indexing that to the point where the game is actually enriched in any way? And the answer is that you can't do this, because by virtue of the engi having a sentry you are playing with an object that is dealt with not by skill but by execution of a basic flowchart that any good team will execute 100% of the time. If it is good enough to defend against the best flowchart, then it is broken, and if it isn't, then it's useless. Human error isn't a factor when you play with a character that deploys objects, which means you're always banking on the other teams human error. That's why torbjorn is broken as shit at low skill levels and sucks at high levels. That's why in high levels engi will only ever be viable on non PL/AD as anything more than a road bump or a surprise. It's the same shit with spy and every other stealth character that has ever existed. Either he's not great because he requires stealth, which isn't reliable against humans, especially not at the higher levels, or he's broken because he is just a character that still kills you 1v1 but also has stealth tacked on for free flanks. So if you have a sniper and the meta states the other team will run a spy who will usually be able to deal with the sniper, it no longer works because the stealth is no longer a surprise and therefore it's unreliable and won't be able to kill the sniper. These are two examples of things you cannot possibly fix, not without changing the class so much to the point where it's not even an engi or spy anymore. And nobody wants their class changed hugely just so that you can have a new meta which seems to have tangible merits. And actually, I would be hugely surprised if a large amount of people playing tf2 are even interested in a meta game where you cycle classes to counter eachother endlessly. Which actually won't happen anyway because you are always going to have the high skill ceiling classes being the best, and if you don't, congratulations you've ruined the game.

The thing about Spy is that you can't be looking around 24/7 to spycheck everyone, You can't really play perfectly against him.

The playercounts didn't really change. See here: [url]https://teamwork.tf/community/statistics[/url] It seems a refined bot farm died or something. [editline]12th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=ASIC;53125868]The thing about Spy is that you can't be looking around 24/7 to spycheck everyone, You can't really play perfectly against him.[/QUOTE] Isn't that the same with all classes, though?

If anybody is currently burned out on casual with over 500 hours and on the fence about joining comp like I was last year, I would fully recommend it. Since signing up for the ETF2L fresh meat tournament I've had nothing but a blast. My team is currently now in mid, me and a friend even took a roadtrip to insomnia 61 for a meetup, great fun. (my friend got b4nny and getawhale to sign his subway sandwhich which he then ate anyway)

Tell your friend not to do eat stuff like that.

[QUOTE=Jonii;53125500]Class limit 1 has been tried and the pros didn't like it. There's also an argument to be made that limiting to 1 of each class will limit possible strategies rather than increase them. There are only 9 classes, so you know each team will have a scout, a soldier, a demo, a medic, and two flexes. That leaves just a few combos. With current class limits you have way more possibilities in this hypothetical where everyone is useful more often. 5CP is the most played mode because pros far and away like it the most. I think it's the most dynamic map type we have, where teams are working off momentum and dynamically switching from attacking and defending. We already see lots of sniper and spy play with people experimenting with Pyro, though I agree heavy and engi could be more useful. The issues with A/D right now are that the majority are not well designed and the point of the game for red is to stalemate and run out the clock. We can already see in Overwatch League how that can get boring. Things are the way they are because people have been trying things out and seeing what works, what's fun to play, and what's exciting to watch for ten years. Competitive KOTH maps are so small already that forward spawns are unnecessary. There's already a less than 15 second walk to the point itself with a staging area for the offensive team to regroup and stage their attack from.[/QUOTE] 5cp is a stalematey mess where one team spends 15 minutes stalling on last anyway. I don't know how anybody can use the argument that every other gamemode in the game is too slow when 5cp is one of the worst offenders in the game. Until we get gamemodes into comp where defending specialists can actually have an interesting role other than "hold last forever" we'll never see a decent migration of players to comp. People don't want to play one game mode with only a few consistently relevant classes as their main way to play the game. 5cp simultaneously makes defending classes barely relevant while retaining the garbage stalemate meta that they claim to be avoiding. I'm definitely of the opinion that comp needs payload. We'll need to tweak the maps by making last points less easy to defend, change the cart speed and movement rules a bit to accommodate 6s (one neat idea I've seen is to drastically increase the size of the capping radius on the cart so that you don't have to literally be standing still and not really fighting to cap), but with a solid map like upward you actually get both teams fighting each other with a constantly moving frontline, without the entire game being determined by rollouts, and with all classes being relevant. At least in payload, stalemates only last like 8 minutes at most instead of literally indefinitely.

Anyone want to buy an unusual shred alert (skill gotten gains) for 11 kys?

[QUOTE=Mould;53125767]meta game where you cycle classes to counter eachother endlessly.[/QUOTE] hmm, ironically enough this is how pubs are :thinking:

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53126030]hmm, ironically enough this is how pubs are :thinking:[/QUOTE] "oh, the enemy has one sentry" instanty summons 4 gibus spy

I'm only a casual player, but I am interested in why 5cp stalemates so easily in competitive. 5cp is my favorite gamemode, and is, in my probably unpopular opinion, the quintessential TF2 experience. I know a big part of it has to be that for the losing team, pushing out is almost impossible. With small teams, you can't have any protection against back-capping even if you have opportunity to push. One thing I really want to ask about is ubercharges. Aren't they supposed to be be-all end-all stalemate breakers? Of course an uber wouldn't be enough to simultaneously defend last and take second, but what about the attackers? Is the problem that the defenders often have uber advantage, or is it just too easy to make the attackers waste an uber?

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53126055]I'm only a casual player, but I am interested in why 5cp stalemates so easily in competitive. 5cp is my favorite gamemode, and is, in my probably unpopular opinion, the quintessential TF2 experience. I know a big part of it has to be that for the losing team, pushing out is almost impossible. With small teams, you can't have any protection against back-capping even if you have opportunity to push. One thing I really want to ask about is ubercharges. Aren't they supposed to be be-all end-all stalemate breakers? Of course an uber wouldn't be enough to simultaneously defend last and take second, but what about the attackers? Is the problem that the defenders often have uber advantage, or is it just too easy to make the attackers waste an uber?[/QUOTE] Attackers [i]have[/i] to move in if they want to get anything done. Defenders have an advantage through way of not needing to move out in order to defend, they can and will fall back into their territory to mitigate the effects of an early-uber from their opponents, they can run the clock all they want because as long as the other team isn't moving in, that's a successful defense. The defenders are waiting to have a numbers advantage before they safely push out to second because otherwise they run the risk of wiping or getting backcapped (can't reliably have the Demo pushing without detonating his stickies on last, can't leave 1 player parked on last because that leaves you down 1 man if you want to push out). So the defense is perpetually locked into a corner because they know that any kill trading will always be in the attacking team's favor (defenders always have longer respawns). Basically the defenders only have the threat of losing looming over their heads in such a way that it's safer to hunker down and crush a failed push than it is to try to make something happen independent of that. Of course always being on the backfoot is a recipe for failure, so teams do eventually push out, but they still are looking for that numbers advantage before doing anything risky like that. Ubercharges themselves are the playmakers, so it's a little hard to argue that they're good at breaking stalemates so much as they're good at making [i]something[/i] happen (which leads to breaking a stalemate in a way), but it's easy to have them awkwardly engage each other to accomplish nothing but waste time, which is again in the defenders' favor.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53126055]I'm only a casual player, but I am interested in why 5cp stalemates so easily in competitive. 5cp is my favorite gamemode, and is, in my probably unpopular opinion, the quintessential TF2 experience. I know a big part of it has to be that for the losing team, pushing out is almost impossible. With small teams, you can't have any protection against back-capping even if you have opportunity to push. One thing I really want to ask about is ubercharges. Aren't they supposed to be be-all end-all stalemate breakers? Of course an uber wouldn't be enough to simultaneously defend last and take second, but what about the attackers? Is the problem that the defenders often have uber advantage, or is it just too easy to make the attackers waste an uber?[/QUOTE] You kinda answered your own question. Pushing out for the Defenders is too risky; Why bother losing the entire round if you can just wait for the Attackers to fuck up? So Defenders turn incredibly passive. For the Attackers, its not knowing if the Defenders are actually mad enough to push out and a mix of the uber thing. Ah, the uber thing, let me answer it with two classes: Engie and Heavy - despite people always calling out for them. Engie and Heavy are the sole reason why the Uber wont work, because if you uber the Soldier, he shoots 4 Rockets at the Heavy and guess what the Heavy will continue living. He shoots 4 rockets at the sentry the engie will continue healing it, and if he takes it down, still has to deal with the bulletsponge that the heavy is. Of course with proper team coordination you can take out the dreaded fart defense combo, but it's often too difficult and risky depending on the map - mind you, after the failed push, the attackers will have the advantage, and thats when we go to second and it goes all over again. Which is why people stay for their alternatives: Stalemating, or Sniper - despite how dreaded he is here - the ultimate stalemate breaker, once a Sniper gets the med the game suddenly becomes quick again, and the stalemate is broken.

Even with 35-50k ish players, the casual mm is still fairly fast, if all the players were people it would be way faster. Hope VNN gets to ask the tf team more questions about future development.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53126055]I'm only a casual player, but I am interested in why 5cp stalemates so easily in competitive. 5cp is my favorite gamemode, and is, in my probably unpopular opinion, the quintessential TF2 experience. I know a big part of it has to be that for the losing team, pushing out is almost impossible. With small teams, you can't have any protection against back-capping even if you have opportunity to push. One thing I really want to ask about is ubercharges. Aren't they supposed to be be-all end-all stalemate breakers? Of course an uber wouldn't be enough to simultaneously defend last and take second, but what about the attackers? Is the problem that the defenders often have uber advantage, or is it just too easy to make the attackers waste an uber?[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;xcoo7M4tur0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcoo7M4tur0[/video]