TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Oizen;53127316]I feel like I have to say that Jungle Inferno was a failiure of an update, considering its one goal was to fix pyro. And here we are with a Pyro even more broken than before.[/QUOTE] Pyro's much better than before. Jungle Inferno was a good update with some flaws.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53127316]I feel like I have to say that Jungle Inferno was a failiure of an update, considering its one goal was to fix pyro. And here we are with a Pyro even more broken than before.[/QUOTE] Both Pyro's flamethrowers and airblast are overall objectively better and more consistent than before. All we need is this patch note. "Improved flame hit detection to favor repeated hits with the flamethrower" And up the alpha on the particles and maybe make them a tad orange. Jungle Inferno did improve Pyro, just one major hurdle to pass and the flame rework will be a success. edit: I suppose we get random features and stuff like the contracker is because they're "cool" things to work on and attract devs (I think I already said this earlier before lol)

The goal of Jungle Inferno was to give Pyro some power and presence, which the class has lacked ever since Degreaser was nerfed and Puff n' Sting was for all intents and purposes baleeted. It did just that, and gave Pyro a bunch of new fun toys to play with as well, Dragon Fury is objectively a good addition to the game and fun to use, jetpack is okay, it just feels redundant with the Detonator existing in its current state, Gas Passer is garbage but it's something to mix up gameplay and a fun choice for Pyros that want to play more like a utility class, and Hot Hand is just plain dumb fun, like the Fish.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53127326]Pyro's much better than before. Jungle Inferno was a good update with some flaws.[/QUOTE] Pyro is enormously overpowered, and requires much less skill for much more guaranteed damage than before. That's why they need to patch the flamethrowers. What sort of bonkers bizzaro land are you living in?

Airblast is definitely better, but I don't see how anyone could claim that flames have improved. They're much less "skilled" than before, even if they do match their visuals properly.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53127116]This also means that I can use the giftapult without it ending up in a bot inventory good day.[/QUOTE] nope it will still go to a trade bot

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53127341]Airblast is definitely better, but I don't see how anyone could claim that flames have improved. They're much less "skilled" than before, even if they do match their visuals properly.[/QUOTE] They fixed the mojo and they shoot in a more consistent straight line now, if they fixed the flail garbage you would actually have to track targets now to get full dps and max afterburn. edit: oh and the flame particles hitting you multiple times. Also the flamethrower shoots 24 flame particles per second, but the game checks 12 times per second for hit detection against enemies, I'm no dev but that sounds a little funky

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53127340]Pyro is laughably overpowered, and required much less skill for much more guaranteed damage than before. What bizzaro land are you living in?[/QUOTE] Before the "skill" involved in playing pyro was getting lucky with the incredibly inconstant and buggy flames. It was a fucking dice roll on whether or not your attempts at tracking would register. Now pyro has consistent damage output with DPS that's in a [I]pretty[/I] good spot (it was way too low before). It's got issues with accurate tracking only having a small increase in DPS, leading to a skill floor and skill ceiling that's too low. But it's in a far better place than it was before. The pyro still needs some tweaks to make aiming more important than it is now, but overall pyro is in a much better spot.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53127353]Before the "skill" involved in playing pyro was getting lucky with the incredibly inconstant and buggy flames. It was a fucking dice roll on whether or not your attempts at tracking would register. Now pyro has consistent damage output with DPS that's in a [I]pretty[/I] good spot (it was way too low before). It's got issues with accurate tracking only having a small increase in DPS, leading to a skill floor and skill ceiling that's too low. But it's in a far better place than it was before. The pyro still needs some tweaks to make aiming more important than it is now, but overall pyro is in a much better spot.[/QUOTE] nope. old flames were learnable and had little to no randomness. just because backpedalling people could evade your flames doesn't mean it was "broken", because you actually make it sound like it was the game's fault.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53127360]nope. old flames were learnable and had little to no randomness. just because backpedalling people could evade your flames doesn't mean it was "broken", because you actually make it sound like it was the game's fault.[/QUOTE] The flamethrower's range literally changed drastically with your ping, if that's not the game's fault whose is it? Centurylink's?

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53127370]The flamethrower's range literally changed drastically with your ping, if that's not the game's fault whose is it? Centurylink?[/QUOTE] ping delays virtually every action. that's to be expected. the JI flames still behave oddly with mid-high ping.

I hope we get a video by sigsegv when he finishes reverse engineering the new flame code.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53127360]nope. old flames were learnable and had little to no randomness. just because backpedalling people could evade your flames doesn't mean it was "broken", because you actually make it sound like it was the game's fault.[/QUOTE] "learnable" isn't an excuse for how poor the old flames were in practice. Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) is a very consistent, not-very-random speedrun, according to the runner that ran it at a GDQ some time ago. That doesn't mean the game isn't a broken mess.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53127375]ping delays virtually every action. that's to be expected. the JI flames still behave oddly with mid-high ping.[/QUOTE] It's a massive issue with the old flamethrower. There's no other weapon in the game that actually changes its range depending on your ping. Imagine if 20ms players had tighter shotgun spread than 100ms players. Everybody would be up in arms. The only difference is that pyro's flame visuals lied about their position, making it less obvious. Interested in how ping affects current flamethrower though, do you have links?

[QUOTE=Oizen;53127316]I feel like I have to say that Jungle Inferno was a failiure of an update, considering its one goal was to fix pyro. And here we are with a Pyro even more broken than before.[/QUOTE] If you imagine Pyro being a TV, pre-JI he was pure white noise, post-JI the antenna got jiggled a bit and now you can kinda make out some horrifying fetish porn. Hardly what anyone wants but hey we're slowly getting somewhere.

I'd take anything over trying to aim a stream of invisible particles with a lying flame effect constantly trying to trick me into aiming in the wrong spot. Pyro is flawed right now, but Pyro was inexcusably broken for ten years.

I don't see how what we've got now isn't "inexcusably broken" as well, and in a much more consequential way.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53127438]I don't see how what we've got now isn't "inexcusably broken" as well, and in a much more consequential way.[/QUOTE] Greater range combined with the currently bugged maximum damage for flailing like a spaz is broken. I dunno how people can defend not even trying to aim at your target to tracking your target for maximum damage.

I hate new flames too. But let's not pretend Pyro wasn't ridiculously weak before JI.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53127450]I hate new flames too. But let's not pretend Pyro wasn't ridiculously weak before JI.[/QUOTE] the floor master always overshadowed pyro, it's always been like that. airblast was even specifically designed for soldier.

It's a big problem to be sure, but it's not a fundamental one like the problems with pyro before. Right now the flamethrower has much too low of a skill ceiling/floor. This is a relatively simple problem to fix though, simply tweaking the flamethrower to require a lot more of the particles to hit to deal max dps (which to be fair just makes it more frustrating that it hasn't been fixed yet). Before though, the flamethrower was so poorly designed and mediocre that the vast majority of pyros ditched it altogether and just used flareguns and shotguns, with a flamethrower for puffing and airblasting. The problems it had were at its core, with flames that neither the user nor the victim really knew the exact position of.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53127459]The problems it had were at its core, with flames that neither the user nor the victim really knew the exact position of.[/QUOTE] speak for yourself, thanks

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53127486]speak for yourself, thanks[/QUOTE] They were literally invisible, and their behavior varied substantially with ping. Like, I don't understand how this is something we're getting caught up on, are you legitimately trying to suggest that the flamethrower was in a decent spot before Jungle Inferno? Are you [I]really[/I] trying to say that??? I can see where it might seem like I'm understating the current issues with pyro and I can see why that would people would take issue with that but pyro was fucking awful before jungle inferno, I didn't think that was a controversial position.

i think pyro's current DPS would be justifiable if it was actually based on the density of particles colliding with a player and if the flailing method were fixed as part of that the damage imo isnt even a problem, it's that you can deal it with a single particle colliding at a time and you dont have to aim to do it

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53127336]The goal of Jungle Inferno was to give Pyro some power and presence, which the class has lacked ever since Degreaser was nerfed and Puff n' Sting was for all intents and purposes baleeted. It did just that, and gave Pyro a bunch of new fun toys to play with as well, Dragon Fury is objectively a good addition to the game and fun to use, jetpack is okay, it just feels redundant with the Detonator existing in its current state, Gas Passer is garbage but it's something to mix up gameplay and a fun choice for Pyros that want to play more like a utility class, and Hot Hand is just plain dumb fun, like the Fish.[/QUOTE] Pyro never really had presence before JI... Pyro's been debatably one of the weakest classes since the original Team Fortress Mod on Quake. JI was probably the first time he's actually been a threat for once... But how he currently is is just too forgiving and now just need a particle fix as well as some skill index so he's not so brain dead and has to actually take things into consideration before attacking IMO. [QUOTE=Kaiga;53127340]Pyro is enormously overpowered, and requires much less skill for much more guaranteed damage than before. That's why they need to patch the flamethrowers. What sort of bonkers bizzaro land are you living in?[/QUOTE] I don't feel that he's overpowered. I feel he's just too simple and easy... He's still very easy to take down, you just have to be a bit more careful around corners... He doesn't have to take in as much into consideration as generalists when it comes to attacking, like reloading for instance... If pyro misses a shot he can brush it off since his flamethrower, like the minigun is automatic... Running out of ammo is really easy to manage too... Then there's the particles registering as hits when they should be missing...

I got a medal for making submitting a mission to the Titanium Tank contest: [IMG]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/930427315930639848/6569C5BF71A9A98FC4F1B662E7A82B788557E241/[/IMG] The ones you get for completing the tour aren't out yet though. I'm going to see if I can use this to screw with people a little bit.

so are they just gonna leave the jungle theme till thursday or

[QUOTE=Drury;53127398]If you imagine Pyro being a TV, pre-JI he was pure white noise, post-JI the antenna got jiggled a bit and now you can kinda make out some horrifying fetish porn. Hardly what anyone wants but hey we're slowly getting somewhere.[/QUOTE] MaxofS2D?

[QUOTE=Fluury;53127841]so are they just gonna leave the jungle theme till thursday or[/QUOTE] According to [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7x6ox9/so_its_past_the_11th_and_jungle_inferno_is_still/"]this[/URL] you can still buy the campaign pass as well.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53127492]They were literally invisible, and their behavior varied substantially with ping. Like, I don't understand how this is something we're getting caught up on, are you legitimately trying to suggest that the flamethrower was in a decent spot before Jungle Inferno? Are you [I]really[/I] trying to say that??? I can see where it might seem like I'm understating the current issues with pyro and I can see why that would people would take issue with that but pyro was fucking awful before jungle inferno, I didn't think that was a controversial position.[/QUOTE] All they really had to do with make the visual flame particles match the hitboxes and fix the mojo, which really only affected range somewhat. Apart from that, if you learned how the hitboxes behaved, the flamethrower was perfectly fine. Now, the visuals match and there's no mojo which is nice and all, but the damage calculation change is pretty atrocious and removes basically all the benefit that matching the visuals brought, since there's little reason to care about how the flame physics work. Similarly, the mojo fix would be nice for prioritising skill over connection/RNG, but it's overshadowed again by the damage changes - what would have otherwise made pyro more reliant on skill just got dampened out instead.