TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

Dont feed cheaters, report, call for a kick, and ignore them/mute them.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53138371]Isn't CS:GO's spread in a fixed, reliable pattern that you can compensate for with enough skill? I thought I heard this off-hand somewhere, I have no experience with CS so this might be completely wrong.[/QUOTE] CSGO'S randomness is also accuracy penalties to firing weapons while moving, and at distances that make it harder in real life too. You aren't going to hit something dead on with a pistol at crazy long distances, or while jogging with a 30 pound rifle you're trying to keep still, even if you are a master marksman. In lieu of an attempt at bullet physics, this is what the game does to penalize trying.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53136437]Hilarious that having the intel right in front of spawn is seen as good for ctf because the standard is even worse. Put the intel somewhere [I]impossible[/I] to defend. Make the game about who can cap fastest and do the best job of slowing down the other team. Raise the score limit to 10 or higher if necessary (and have a time limit ofc). Keep the capture-crits but only when the losing team captures.[/QUOTE] That sums up Overwatch's version of CTF. Aside from basically everybody having ridiculous ults and movement options.

[QUOTE=Kiwi;53138457]There is rng in the spread although it’s VERY minor(0.00005%)[/QUOTE] Hey Kiwi do you know when this sub forum is going to be converted to New Punch? I see several sub forums have already been converted.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53138261]One problem with flashing the w+m1 card though is that it means you only hold those keys down. If you airblast, strafe, hell do anything but run in a straight line in general and use anything other then the flamethrower your generally not w+m1ing... Not to mention complaining about w+m1ing to get kills is sort of putting yourself down in the process. I mean, how bad do you have to be that you can't hit and/or kill a pyro running at you in a straight line with his flamethrower out holding M1 and never airblasting? I'm actually surprised heavy doesn't get accused of this either, since he's far more effective then pyro at w+m1ing honestly... Since he doesn't have to be within close range for his bullets to actually connect, although it does deal less damage at range I will admit... and no I'm not attacking you because I know you like Heavy Lord, I'm just saying I'm surprised Pyro is literally the only class that gets this complaint when heavy can pull it off much easier. Other classes can w+m1 too technically as well...[/QUOTE] Heavy has to aim and Pyro doesn't, so that's the significant divergence. W+M1 was a risible complaint prior to JI, but now that Pyro no longer has to adopt even the pretense of aim, while dealing vastly superior damage, it's a legitimate annoyance.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53138892]Heavy has to aim and Pyro doesn't, so that's the significant divergence. W+M1 was a risible complaint prior to JI, but now that Pyro no longer has to adopt even the pretense of aim, while dealing vastly superior damage, it's a legitimate annoyance.[/QUOTE] Heavy has his own set of perks that making him more effective at w+m1ing as well and keeping crosshairs over a target only gets difficult if the target is in your face and a scout lol honestly... Heavy and Pyro also have the added benefits that their guns never have to factor in reloading, meaning they can brush off missed shots a lot easier then Soldiers and scouts, who if caught off guard and need to reload are now put in a bad situation that could cost them their lives. Not to mention the added benefit that his miniguns don't have a range limit, meaning he doesn't need to be near targets to deal damage to them. Heavy's health being noticeably higher also helps out in fire fights as well. Over the years of playing, I've seen newer players being far more productive when it comes to fights as a heavy then as a pyro most situations.

That may have been true before JI, but now pyro very clearly has a much, much lower skill floor.

A day or so ago when I was playing on the titanium tank servers, there was a heavy with what could be described as a "gay cop" loadout.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53138978]A day or so ago when I was playing on the titanium tank servers, there was a heavy with what could be described as a "gay cop" loadout.[/QUOTE]this is really common, i don't see how it's noteworthy

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53138928]keeping crosshairs over a target only gets difficult if the target is in your face and a scout lol honestly...[/QUOTE] guess you must literally be the best player of all time then since you never even have difficulty doing perfect tracking, let alone actually miss. the idea that aiming isn't hard or a skill is so ridiculous and needs to be laid to rest

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53138928] Over the years of playing, I've seen newer players being far more productive when it comes to fights as a heavy then as a pyro most situations.[/QUOTE] That all changed when the flail nation attacked. When the pyro needed balance the most, valve vanished.

Apparently, one of the Kritzkast admins is in my current Mvm game.

I hope performance doesn't get worse when they redo the flame hit detection. (heard that it may be the way it is now for better performance)

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53138928]Heavy has his own set of perks that making him more effective at w+m1ing as well and keeping crosshairs over a target only gets difficult if the target is in your face and a scout lol honestly... Heavy and Pyro also have the added benefits that their guns never have to factor in reloading, meaning they can brush off missed shots a lot easier then Soldiers and scouts, who if caught off guard and need to reload are now put in a bad situation that could cost them their lives. Not to mention the added benefit that his miniguns don't have a range limit, meaning he doesn't need to be near targets to deal damage to them. Heavy's health being noticeably higher also helps out in fire fights as well. Over the years of playing, I've seen newer players being far more productive when it comes to fights as a heavy then as a pyro most situations.[/QUOTE] I don't. New Heavies are complete pushovers and barely manage anything, particularly if they don't have pocket Medics. Meanwhile, braindead Pyros can kamikaze into groups of people and secure kills even if they don't survive. Tracking players with good movement isn't easy, and stream damage has several drawbacks, namely the inability to deal significant burst damage to fend off attackers around walls. Heavy may have 300 HP, but without a Medic in tow, that 300 HP is a simple task to whittle down--that's three pipes, stickies, rockets, meatshots, etc against the easiest-to-hit target in the game. Pyro has 100%/300 HU/s movement speed, and along with Sniper and Engineer, is the third fastest in the game behind Medic and Scout; with the Powerjack, he's second only to Scout (outside of other classes with select conditions). Suffice it to say, Pyro's mobility isn't anything to scoff at, and his limitations are mostly caused by range. Oh and I had an idea for the Eviction Notice: 50% faster switch speed, to and from. Bam, it's useful.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53139028]Oh and I had an idea for the Eviction Notice: 50% faster switch speed, to and from. Bam, it's useful.[/QUOTE] I mean it's not really much of a change because of spinup/spindown. The weapon switch time itself is negligible in comparison. [editline]17th February 2018[/editline] As always the real way to add variety to heavy's melee and secondaries, at least in a more casual environment, is to add some way to negate/reduce spindown time.

I feel that has to be addressed on a per-weapon basis with primaries, as opposed to any utility unlock that attenuates spin-up in general. Also, holster penalties on utility melees can make more of a difference than you think.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53139024]Apparently, one of the Kritzkast admins is in my current Mvm game.[/QUOTE] Over the couple days I played I had multiple community members, facepunchers, youtubers and artists in my games, was pretty fun

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53139028]Oh and I had an idea for the Eviction Notice: 50% faster switch speed, to and from. Bam, it's useful.[/QUOTE] I'd rather unique stats honestly... When they're too similar they just compete with one another over which one is more functional and useful in the long run. [QUOTE=ASIC;53138978]A day or so ago when I was playing on the titanium tank servers, there was a heavy with what could be described as a "gay cop" loadout.[/QUOTE] [t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/260465617063270192/C40E2FEE7242BE2DF4897F09467612C8378FF7B0/[/t] ?

I think GRU and EN could have seperate stats for different uses, GRU could stay as is for quick bursts of speed useful for escaping fights, the EN could have the old GRU's mark for death with its smaller speed boost for longer distance travel, to mid fights and such.

THE LINCOLNS FAVORITE - ARENA EVENT IS NOW LIVE! JOIN US! steam://connect/188.165.207.20:27024

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53138958]That may have been true before JI, but now pyro very clearly has a much, much lower skill floor.[/QUOTE] That's not what a skill floor is [i]at all[/i]. In fact what you're claiming is the exact opposite from the truth. A skill floor is the effectiveness at the bare minimum level of aptitude. Meanwhile a skill ceiling is the effectiveness at the maximum level of skill. What you're thinking of is a barrier for entry. The issue with current pyro is that there isn't much demanded of a player to get tangible results against players of comparable skill and even those with better skill (because they have to cope with reloads or are simply outnumbered by the Pyros).

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53139175]That's not what a skill floor is [i]at all[/i]. In fact what you're claiming is the exact opposite from the truth. A skill floor is the effectiveness at the bare minimum level of aptitude. Meanwhile a skill ceiling is the effectiveness at the maximum level of skill. What you're thinking of is a barrier for entry. The issue with current pyro is that there isn't much demanded of a player to get tangible results against players of comparable skill and even those with better skill (because they have to cope with reloads or are simply outnumbered by the Pyros).[/QUOTE] Frankly I think you're splitting hairs but every time I've heard someone use the phrase "skill floor" they meant "minimum skill level required to be effective", and skill ceiling to be "maximum skill level after which there's not much room for improvement". It's clear what I meant though, let's not be pedantic. [editline]17th February 2018[/editline] By your definition a weapon that kills everyone on the enemy team with one click would have a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling because it's extremely effective at a low level of skill and extremely effective at a high level of skill.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53139107][t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/260465617063270192/C40E2FEE7242BE2DF4897F09467612C8378FF7B0/[/t] ?[/QUOTE] Pretty similar to that. I'll upload a screenshot later.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53139297]Pretty similar to that. I'll upload a screenshot later.[/QUOTE] You [B]really[/B] don't need to post it. It's one of the most common loadouts people use for Heavy. Post it in the loadout thread if you have to and leave it be.

Thanks for playing everyone!

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53139239]Frankly I think you're splitting hairs but every time I've heard someone use the phrase "skill floor" they meant "minimum skill level required to be effective", and skill ceiling to be "maximum skill level after which there's not much room for improvement". It's clear what I meant though, let's not be pedantic.[/quote] Skill floor is the opposite of skill ceiling. The graph is derived from the learning curve, which charts out effective learning with respect to attempts. Repurposed for videogames, that is skill on the x axis and effectiveness on the y axis. the floor and ceiling merely refer to the entry and exit points. A barrier for entry (or skill barrier) exists on these charts, but they're more of a steep vertical jump in the curve itself and exist around points where key skills are learned and are necessary to reach the next skill plateau. The most obvious barrier for entry is at the point with 0 skill at all, at which point they can barely operate a keyboard and mouse so you're surprised they managed to install it in the first place. Throughout the skill curve there may be more barriers for entry to reach the next level of skill, these barriers can come in the form of game awareness or learning about specific movement or aim techniques that are difficult to surmise and take practice before they start to pay dividends in the form of better performance. [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53139239]By your definition a weapon that kills everyone on the enemy team with one click would have a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling because it's extremely effective at a low level of skill and extremely effective at a high level of skill.[/QUOTE] You misinterpret what a skill curve actually charts out. To illustrate, I'll show what your proposed weapon looks like on a skill curve. [img]https://i.imgur.com/Uk5MGCg.png[/img] What you proposed was something with a [i]flat[/i] skill curve. Once you learn the core basics for simply using this tool, there's nowhere to go, you're already as effective as someone who's been doing this simple task for hundreds of hours because it's just as effective if you click once as if you click in rhythm with your heartbeat because you made something with no nuance, no depth to strategy, so barebones that the only reason someone might not be using it to maximum effectiveness is because their wireless mouse ran out of battery power. A skill graph charts input to output. If the output is the same regardless of input, that's a telltale sign that the skill curve is flat as a pancake.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53139539]Skill floor is the opposite of skill ceiling. The graph is derived from the learning curve, which charts out effective learning with respect to attempts. Repurposed for videogames, that is skill on the x axis and effectiveness on the y axis. the floor and ceiling merely refer to the entry and exit points. A barrier for entry (or skill barrier) exists on these charts, but they're more of a steep vertical jump in the curve itself and exist around points where key skills are learned and are necessary to reach the next skill plateau. The most obvious barrier for entry is at the point with 0 skill at all, at which point they can barely operate a keyboard and mouse so you're surprised they managed to install it in the first place. Throughout the skill curve there may be more barriers for entry to reach the next level of skill, these barriers can come in the form of game awareness or learning about specific movement or aim techniques that are difficult to surmise and take practice before they start to pay dividends in the form of better performance. You misinterpret what a skill curve actually charts out. To illustrate, I'll show what your proposed weapon looks like on a skill curve. [img]https://i.imgur.com/Uk5MGCg.png[/img] What you proposed was something with a [i]flat[/i] skill curve. Once you learn the core basics for simply using this tool, there's nowhere to go, you're already as effective as someone who's been doing this simple task for hundreds of hours because it's just as effective if you click once as if you click in rhythm with your heartbeat because you made something with no nuance, no depth to strategy, so barebones that the only reason someone might not be using it to maximum effectiveness is because their wireless mouse ran out of battery power. A skill graph charts input to output. If the output is the same regardless of input, that's a telltale sign that the skill curve is flat as a pancake.[/QUOTE] According to your definition, a flat skill curve like this one DOES have a high skill ceiling, because someone who is at a very high skill level is extremely effective with it. That's how you defined skill ceiling. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53139175]A skill floor is the effectiveness at the bare minimum level of aptitude. Meanwhile a skill ceiling is the effectiveness at the maximum level of skill.[/QUOTE] On your chart, the player is extremely effective at low x values and extremely effective at high x values. Ergo, by your definition, the weapon has an extremely high skill floor and an extremely high skill ceiling. But that's really neither here nor there, none of this changes the fact that skill floor and skill ceiling, as terms, refer to skill levels required to reach given levels of effectiveness, not levels of effectiveness of given skill levels. A class that achieves a basic level of effectiveness at a very low level of skill has a low skill floor, not a high skill floor. That's just how the terms are defined. A quick skim through Google can tell you that easily. There's some people who use the term the way you do, but they're in the minority. [editline]17th February 2018[/editline] see now I'm splitting hairs, but that's what happens when you go preaching about how other people are [I] completely wrong [/I] and what they're saying is the [I]exact opposite of the truth[/I] when in reality they're just using a phrase differently than how you do

I swear, this video took longer than expected (college and irl stuff really takes up your time!) Anyway, enjoy the next episode! [video=youtube;zepISh5eEvg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zepISh5eEvg[/video]

Skill ceiling is relative to skill floor. Also, skill floor is the required skill to do decently, where the skill ceiling is the maximum a player can perform at. So, the flamethrower has a rock bottom skill floor and a ceiling only a small amount higher than that.

I have a confession to make. I am truely sorry to everyone I've ran into in pubs today with Vaccinator and pocket. I think I've got like 300 assist kills and like 3 deaths in all those games. Most overpowered medigun existing.