TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53095826]Let's stop mocking the voters just because they're on reddit and consider pondering if they'd have any actual argument for random crits staying if asked. Would any arguments amount to more than "they've been around forever", or "it allows people who are bad to be good for half of a second by killing a better enemy with random crits"?[/QUOTE] You could say that, but when you're playing medic and you're just about to pop that uber and then some random soldier shoots one crit rocket, killing you and your heavy instantly, well you see my point.

...I'm not bringing it up as an actual argument. I'm against random crits like most other people here. I am questioning if that's all they would come up with.

I can't believe we went a thread without a thread header

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53095871]...I'm not bringing it up as an actual argument. I'm against random crits like most other people here. I am questioning if that's all they would come up with.[/QUOTE] I know you're not, I am just stating what most people would probably say to that.

The point I'm making is that those aren't actual arguments and I'm wondering if they'd have any actual arguments we could discuss. Would they? have there been an actual valid arguments for random crits, especially their current state? We all know that random crits killing a Medic with Uber with no counterplay is not in the very least enjoyable for anybody involved.

I don't think a valid one is possible.

Something about a [I][B]perfect [/B][/I]stalemate scenario (i.e a hightier match on Dustbowl) where either side is too dug in to successfully make a push, and the map is too linear to pokes holes via movement and flanking, and defense is again too concentrated for an Uber to be successful, ignoring the possibility of the enemy team mirroring your Uber with their own. When either side can't push, you need a sort of cointoss mechanic to weaken one side to allow the game to flow. ^ The best argument i've personally heard on the pro-crits side that isn't arbitrary. But to me it sounds a lot like a map design problem, that to be fair, plagues a lot of original TF2 maps, but becomes significantly less of a meaningful argument the better a map is designed.

Hell I even find pumpkin crits during halloween to be more fair only because you can actually fucking tell when they're about to crit

[QUOTE=Zadrave;53095956]Hell I even find pumpkin crits during halloween to be more fair only because you can actually fucking tell when they're about to crit[/QUOTE] Plus they're easily avoidable. If you actually put yourself into a position where you're right next to a pumpkin with an opponent trailing you, you deserve to be critted. There is absolutely no comparable situation with random crits.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;53095956]Hell I even find pumpkin crits during halloween to be more fair only because you can actually fucking tell when they're about to crit[/QUOTE] Well, that's probably because they're not random. The bombs have present respawn times and spawn in the same locations over and over. You have a lot more control over the situation with them.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;53095956]Hell I even find pumpkin crits during halloween to be more fair only because you can actually fucking tell when they're about to crit[/QUOTE] That's a fair argument, but pumpkin bombs were by far the more enjoyable addition in terms of halloween map bonuses.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53095980]Well, that's probably because they're not random. The bombs have present respawn times and spawn in the same locations over and over. You have a lot more control over the situation with them.[/QUOTE] He meant the glowing crit pumpkins that spawn from enemies when you kill them, which have zero RNG to them.

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53095005]And if you went to the steam community forums the percentage would be larger,the audience depends on the quality of the poll.[/QUOTE] Let's suppose you have 10 million people who play tf2. In that case you would only need a sample size of a bit more than 1000, to have an accurate poll (in which the margin of error would be 3%). Some calculators: [url]https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/sample-size-calculator/[/url] [url]https://www.checkmarket.com/sample-size-calculator/[/url] [QUOTE=prizepool;53095632]So your evidence is an army diego.gonzalez.2004s from reddit over our thousands of hours of tf2 experience?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=qubestf2;53095687]People from /r/tf2 are not the smartest bunch around.[/QUOTE] So what's your point here? First off, let's look at what I was responding to: [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53094898]The game has existed for a decade. That's easily hundreds of millions of of combined competitive hours (ranging all the way from platinum to open) and it's practically unanimous that everyone vehemently opposes random crits. This even permeates the hundreds of millions of combined hours of casual players who also despise random crits to the point where random crit binds themselves have ascended to that of memes.[/QUOTE] Why does their intelligence or lack of it, even relate to this? He was not saying that Smart/good players hate random crits, He is basically saying that everyone hates random crits. In addition can you prove that they are notably dumber than the tf2 players here?

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096207]Let's suppose you have 10 million people who play tf2. In that case you would only need a sample size of a bit more than 1000, to have an accurate poll (in which the margin of error would be 3%). Some calculators: [url]https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/sample-size-calculator/[/url] [url]https://www.checkmarket.com/sample-size-calculator/[/url] So what's your point here? First off, let's look at what I was responding to: Why does their intelligence or lack of it, even relate to this? He was not saying that Smart/good players hate random crits, He is basically saying that everyone hates random crits. In addition can you prove that they are notably dumber than the tf2 players here?[/QUOTE] What is this goalpost shifting? You tell people to give you an explanation for why [I]random crits in competitive mode[/I] (jesus fucking christ) are a bad idea, then when multiple people provide you explanations for why, from a gameplay perspective, they are a bad idea, you ignore every single argument and every point made except for a single weak-ish generalization somebody made, and focus on that barely relevant point. This is the absolute worst way to approach any kind of discussion. People provide good arguments for why you're wrong, and you decide, oh no, [I]I[/I] can't be wrong, I'm [I]me[/I], how can I deflect this off to random tangents so that I don't have to ever make any kind of concession? I wouldn't want to have to think critically or change my perspective on anything. If you legitimately disagree that's one thing, but it's clear that you're ignoring every reasonable argument provided in favor of poking holes in tangents.

[QUOTE=Kincaid1;53095053]How could anybody enjoy being killed by a knee-jerk reaction undeserved crocket to the floor and then being taunted on 5 health[/QUOTE] Masochism. Also, I would guess you are thinking of the wrong half of giving/receiving crits. I think it's more that they enjoy doing that sort of thing to other people.

[QUOTE=MysticLlama;53095948]Something about a [I][B]perfect [/B][/I]stalemate scenario (i.e a hightier match on Dustbowl) where either side is too dug in to successfully make a push, and the map is too linear to pokes holes via movement and flanking, and defense is again too concentrated for an Uber to be successful, ignoring the possibility of the enemy team mirroring your Uber with their own. When either side can't push, you need a sort of cointoss mechanic to weaken one side to allow the game to flow. ^ The best argument i've personally heard on the pro-crits side that isn't arbitrary. But to me it sounds a lot like a map design problem, that to be fair, plagues a lot of original TF2 maps, but becomes significantly less of a meaningful argument the better a map is designed.[/QUOTE] That stalemate breaking argument was the reason why RNG crits existed back in 2008, when they still served a questionable purpose in said scenario, especially when player skill levels weren't as diverse. It's a decade later. Team interactions are fundamentally different with thousands on thousands of possible weapon, player skill, and strategy combinations on an enormous map pool. There are no longer any rational pro-crits arguments, plain and simple. Plenty of irrational ones, like "I enjoy RNG kills in a game about player skill and decision making" or "I don't care about the outcome of something I'm putting time and effort into". But no serious ones. That's the cold truth.

Hey, if you are having problems while playing as Pyro with the flames blocking your vision/being too annoying I recommend going with "viewmodel_fov 0". The Dragon's Fury gigantic fireball is gone at the cost of relying on the audio cue to see how fast/slow you're firing, and deflecting rockets is fairly easier with the rest of the flamethrowers.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53095030]The TF2 Team should be working towards consistency. Consistency of mechanics present between Casual and Competitive. As long as glaring misrepresentation of mechanics (random crits, random bullet spread) remains in Casual, it will be more difficult for the average player to find themselves wanting to play Competitive. These are things that must be changed. Competitive doesn't work with RNG, and Casual is inherently less fun because of it. Those are the facts, and I hope the TF2 Team implements the simple solution (their removal from Casual) for the same update that Competitive finally gets its refresher.[/QUOTE] So, Casual, the mode where those mechanics (random crit & bullet spread) are present is a misrepresentation of another mode, Competitive. Why isn't it the other way around? Since Competitive mode came after Casual? How does the original misrepresent the one that comes after it? I'm pretty sure that Casual is not inherently less fun because of Randomness.

People hate casual because especially with good players, a good 1/3rd of your deaths are for absolutely no reason other than bad luck. Source: I actually play the game. It is the number one thing veteran or returning players gripe about when playing casual, that after 10 years and so many improvements, valve continuously fails to remove them.

while i certainly doubt one could report asic for merely defending his perception of random crits not being negative for the game, i'd invite everyone to stop falling through the obvious endless loop hole that is this discussion because im sure we all want to avoid 5 pages of the same argument constantly repeated. it is clear to everyone and for the most part what FP's consensus is that regard, so lets move on.

lowkey wishing dota2 didnt exist so asic wouldnt have to shitpost in general chat

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53094855]Somebody literally gave you an explanation already several posts ago, and we all already had this discussion. Please stop shitposting. Random crits remove depth from the game by turning an interesting encounter where each player's aim, gamesense, and mobility skills are challenged, and replacing it with an encounter that ends before its begun due to RNG. It's robbing both players of gameplay. It takes depth away from the game and replaces it with nothing.[/QUOTE] There are a bunch of different posts I have to respond to here. Please stop accusing me of things. Unless random crits are also automatic hits, then what you are saying isn't accurate. You can still try to avoid them. I would say it adds depth, as it adds mechanics that players can try to utilize and attempt to counter.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096345]There are a bunch of different posts I have to respond to here. Please stop accusing me of things.[/quote]Respond to them all at once rather than only take 1 post, take a couple key sentences, and then fail to even process the abridged version that you left in the quote tags. [QUOTE=ASIC;53096345]Unless random crits are also automatic hits, then what you are saying isn't accurate. You can still try to avoid them.[/quote] You can't avoid hitscan and you can't reasonably escape the splash of a well-aimed rocket wholly due to how fuckhuge the explosion itself is. Yes, falloff exists but crits negate falloff which makes even taking a glancing blow from a crit explosion is going to cut through your health like a hot knife through butter. Anyone can avoid a shot that's not being aimed properly, but at the ranges that matter, you're not dodging for shit unless you weren't going to be getting hit in the first place. Remember this conversation is about [i]competitive[/i] players. People who can actually aim and move and strafe and surf and all sorts of advanced [i]skills[/i] that want to put their [i]skill[/i] to the test against similarly [i]skilled[/i] players. Now why would it be that you might not fit in with this crowd? [QUOTE=ASIC;53096345]I would say it adds depth, as it adds mechanics that players can try to utilize and attempt to counter.[/QUOTE] This thing, that no players can actually control, that removes the importance of reaction time and proper movement adds depth :downs: Take your horribly misinformed opinions and shove them.

In the TF2 Facepunch Discord (which you should all join, see original post), I was brainstorming a solution to the problem TF2 has with introducing new players to somewhat-complicated concepts, as well as the problem of unlocks not being available to the player. I'm sure this has been spoken of in other places, but here we go: I. 9 contracts for each class. These contracts would be somewhat different than most of the contracts we've seen so far, focusing more on class-specific concepts than "Get points as class". For instance, Soldier could have an objective simply called "Rocket Jump", giving you 5 points towards contract completion. A new player won't immediately understand what that means, so the idea is it will encourage the player to LOOK UP how to do these things, as the TF2 Team isn't willing to make a training mode that teaches these concepts in depth. Perhaps, a little "?" icon next to each of these more complicated objectives can be clicked while in the contract menu, and it would take you to the TF2Wiki page of each concept. II. From each of the 9 class contracts, a primary, secondary, and melee branch would appear (maybe each of those can also have a contract? stock weapon contracts?). From there they can start getting all of the unlocks, in no particular order (as in they can choose whichever unlock they want to get after the class contract), and each of those unlock contracts would have unlock-specific objectives. Et cetera. This would make it so that the player has time to take in the benefits and detriments of each unlock, instead of being bombarded by the massive choices they have right off the bat, if unlocks were simply given to the player from installation (a concept I once subscribed to, and would still be better than the current system). Notes: I. The unlocks, after being received, can simply just be a part of the loadout menu, INSTEAD of taking inventory space. Generally, owning all the unlocks takes a couple of pages of space, which a new player who doesn't have premium won't have access to. Make it so that unlocks are no longer a part of the inventory, and cannot be deleted, like stock weapons. Strange weapons, crates, robot parts, scrap-refined metal, hats, etc, all take plenty of inventory space on their own. II. The drop system must be changed. Some people I've spoken to don't want drops to be a Valve server-only feature, so my solution is as follows. 5 drops per week can be received from Casual play, at the end of each match (whether you win or lose). 5 drops per week can also be found playing Community servers (at random times, as is the current system). To get all 10 drops per week, you have to play both. Now, drops can include Scrap Metal, Paints, Tags, Civilian-Mercenary War Paints, Crates/Cases, Hats, etc. Upon receiving any of those (Scrap Metal being the most common), you've "spent" 1 of your 10 drops per week. III. Crafting weapons no longer exists, obviously, but crafting hats still works. Crafting (but not finding) hats could still be locked behind premium so new players that have been getting lots of Scrap Metal have an incentive to pay for something. IV. All this would make the new player experience significantly better.

[QUOTE=Riorio;53096324]lowkey wishing dota2 didnt exist so asic wouldnt have to shitpost in general chat[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what's the logic there? If dota 2 didn't exist I would probably have been in this general chat even more.

Does anyone have the link to Jill explaining why they don't do weapon rebalance except in major updates? Want to reply to [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7u5p8c/come_on_guys_choose_one/dthx178/"]this[/URL] comment.

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53096385]Does anyone have the link to Jill explaining why they don't do weapon rebalance except in major updates? Want to reply to [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7u5p8c/come_on_guys_choose_one/dthx178/"]this[/URL] comment.[/QUOTE] Been a while since I pulled up this email. In response to my question, "What's keeping the team from balancing weapons a little every minor update?" Jill responded: "Without getting too much into our development processes: Weapon balance is only one of a number of things we are working on currently. With our present development resources, it often makes more sense focus on certain areas as a team. Balance, in particular, requires playtesting and evaluating often noisy data, and benefits from being pushed into larger sets of changes from a development-time perspective."

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53096392]Been a while since I pulled up this email. In response to my question, "What's keeping the team from balancing weapons a little every minor update?" Jill responded: "Without getting too much into our development processes: Weapon balance is only one of a number of things we are working on currently. With our present development resources, it often makes more sense focus on certain areas as a team. Balance, in particular, requires playtesting and evaluating often noisy data, and benefits from being pushed into larger sets of changes from a development-time perspective."[/QUOTE] in other words, "balance is boring to do and we'd rather work on this cool new map"

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53096385]Does anyone have the link to Jill explaining why they don't do weapon rebalance except in major updates? Want to reply to [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7u5p8c/come_on_guys_choose_one/dthx178/"]this[/URL] comment.[/QUOTE] Jill's answer is a face-saving cop-out. Yes analyzing effects and class interrelationships is a huge job, but it doesn't take over a year to figure out that the diamondback is broken as hell, as well as realizing that any change you do push that's poorly received or cause for a weapon to be banned, can be easily reverted until a better solution arises. And after all that 400 days of testing, they've somehow managed to make flamethrowers brokenly powerful and detrimental to the game. So yeah, talk about how long it takes, but actually show some results for that time and not blatant oversights. Will it take them another 400 to realize they fucked up? It certainly didn't take CSGO team long after the R8 revolver disaster...

I mean maybe whoever leads the TF cabal loves random crits and doesn't like rebalancing [QUOTE=C. Blades;53096414]Jill's answer is a face-saving cop-out. Yes analyzing effects and class interrelationships is a huge job, but it doesn't take over a year to figure out that the diamondback is broken as hell, as well as realizing that any change you do push that's poorly received or cause for a weapon to be banned, can be easily reverted until a better solution arises. And after all that 400 days of testing, they've somehow managed to make flamethrowers brokenly powerful and detrimental to the game. So yeah, talk about how long it takes, but actually show some results for that time and not blatant oversights. Will it take them another 400 to realize they fucked up? It certainly didn't take CSGO team long after the R8 revolver disaster...[/QUOTE] Still haven't had confirmation from Valve that the flames aren't working as intended