TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53096418]Still haven't had confirmation from Valve that the flames aren't working as intended[/QUOTE] this doesn't matter in the slightest. many idiotic weapons were "working as intended" and they still needed and received change

Wrong. Scroll down to the *what you see is what you get* part of JI's page. There is no mention of increased particle lifetime to the point of where flamethrowers dropped to the ground by their dead owners are still capable of bringing down enemies. Nor is there about the flailing, obscene group-damage playstyle with the flamethrower right now, which is such a big shift from old pyro that they'd be remiss to [I]not[/I] mention it. Nor the fact that you can now out DPS the soldier, heavy, and lv2 sentries while sustained. If this is the way flames are meant to work, then they've created the easiest, most powerful thing in TF2 that require the least skill possible. That was the stated opposite of the update meant to rework pyro.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53096438]this doesn't matter in the slightest. many idiotic weapons were "working as intended" and they still needed and received change[/QUOTE] Yeah, but the final say for all decisions at Valve is "what do they personally like" (By the way I think EricS is a Pyro main, wonder what he thinks of the new Pyro mechanics)

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096345]There are a bunch of different posts I have to respond to here. Please stop accusing me of things. Unless random crits are also automatic hits, then what you are saying isn't accurate. You can still try to avoid them. I would say it adds depth, as it adds mechanics that players can try to utilize and attempt to counter.[/QUOTE] There is no way to "avoid" a 300 damage meatshot or a point bank 300 damage rocket. You can't predict a hitscan shot because the bullets literally travel instantly, and there's no time to react to a critical explosive at closer range because human reaction time just isn't that fast. There's no depth added because there's no way to utilize or avoid them. They happen without any warning at all so the attacker can't base any kind of tactics or strategy on them, and they oneshot people before the one getting hit can react. Longer ranged projectile weapons can be avoided, but the only "depth" there is that the victim occasionally might sidestep a roller once in a blue moon. In the vast majority of cases there's no counterplay, they do nothing but shorten engagements, usually making them instant. Why would you EVER want one team to get a free advantage due to a dice roll in a competitive FPS? The entire POINT of competitive is for two teams to pit their skills against each other.

In a game like TF2, I feel crits don't add much strategic depth, as their low chance of occurring makes them ignorable most of the time, and due to the nature of how many classes in TF2 are based around burst damage makes crits feel very impactful. A scout harassing with a scattergun becomes an instakill, a revolver shot now leaves most classes at <70 health, a stray sticky now deals 360 AOE which literally kills everything but an overhealed heavy, etc. Since TF2 has so much close quarters combat, projectile crits are too close to dodge most of the time. The issue people really have with crits is not the implementation, it's the issue of adding needless RNG to a skill based shooter.

[QUOTE=Scott713;53094487]A working comp mode will not affect TF2's playerbase at all. Comp might be totally broken right now, but even if Valve completely fixes it, so many people will still have that thought of "comp is broken" and no one will really try it. I just don't see a working comp "saving" TF2 at all, when so much of the playerbase and the game at heart is casual.[/QUOTE] Couldnt be more wrong. CS:GO's comp was trash at first aswell and guess what, changes change things and people move with them. Warframe is the best example of something bad being turned good and thus popular; the entire reason why the TF Team wants to make the comp update big is BECAUSE they want people to think "this is an UPGRADED" comp. A working comp mode is incredibly fucking huge for the game. The entire reason why the "playerbase" is casual right now is because there is no working comp mode. It's like saying none of the hockey players just want to play fucking ice hockey because all of them are hockey players when there is no method of playing ice hockey without having to travel to Canada. The entire line of arguments dont make sense. Literally all of my friends that fucked off from TF2 would return an instant if Comp was working, hell I'd play TF2 literally everyday if comp was working, but I still fall into the "casual player" box since playing comp would require me to do so much fucking organization for a single stupid match that I cant be bothered for it.

It depresses me every time I remember that the update that was supposed to add a competitive mode was released a year and a half ago and there's still no functional comp mode in sight.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53096490]It depresses me every time I remember that the update that was supposed to add a competitive mode was released a year and a half ago and there's still no functional comp mode in sight.[/QUOTE] I'm semi-happy they decided to make the comp stuff a bigger deal. While it was shitty they didnt include it with Jungle Inferno, it would've kinda gotten drowned out with the other stuff, wouldnt it? EDIT: its true toh

[QUOTE=Fluury;53096495]I'm semi-happy they decided to make the comp stuff a bigger deal. While it was shitty they didnt include it with Jungle Inferno, it would've kinda gotten drowned out with the other stuff, wouldnt it? EDIT: its true toh[/QUOTE] yea keep giving them excuses if it makes you feel better

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53094572]the skial I frequent recently disabled random crits and I can confirm it doesn't turn tf2 into counter-strike[/QUOTE] I don't think that example is good, as I am pretty sure there is randomness in CS:GO from what I have read on the topic. It doesn't seem as obvious as random crits, but it can have a large effect.

Please stop. Every time this happens it never goes anywhere, and just ends with people getting annoyed with each other.

If RC were intended to break stalemates, why are they enabled in A/D style game modes where the goal for one team is to create and hold a stalemate?

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096580]I don't think that example is good, as I am pretty sure there is randomness in CS:GO from what I have read on the topic. It doesn't seem as obvious as random crits, but it can have a large effect.[/QUOTE] If you mean the recoil, it's in a pattern that you can learn. I just googled "CSGO RNG" and all I see are a couple of people complaining about the first bullet having random spread, which is a deliberate design decision to balance weapons because all guns can headshot.

I wont be suprised if a mod warns ascic if the next random crits discussion we have turns the thread in a fiery mess.

[QUOTE=Segab;53096626]If you mean the recoil, it's in a pattern that you can learn. I just googled "CSGO RNG" and all I see are a couple of people complaining about the first bullet having random spread, which is a deliberate design decision to balance weapons because all guns can headshot.[/QUOTE] From what I have read or saw recently: Spray/recoil have a pattern but it doesn't stick to that perfectly, it apparently has a bit of random spread in it as well. Like you said even the initial shot on the ak-47 has a bit of spray deviation, you can aim perfectly and still miss. With stuff like going full auto like jumping there is a pattern to the spray, but its so wild as to be effectively unpredictable (or luck based) in addition to any random spread. So you can get the opposite effect. Things like really long range headshots with a shotgun (one example: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVrHgCs6fQc[/url]) There is also stuff like how thrown guns/grenades can block bullets. This stuff is rare, and it's a bad idea to try and pull it off.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53096495]I'm semi-happy they decided to make the comp stuff a bigger deal. While it was shitty they didnt include it with Jungle Inferno, it would've kinda gotten drowned out with the other stuff, wouldnt it? EDIT: its true toh[/QUOTE] I do feel like we could easily get a stand-alone comp update with the improvements to comp matchmaking, weapon/class rebalances, some map updates and maybe a few comp focused maps made official. Of course they could throw it in with another bigger update. Who knows with the TF2 team.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096359]Respond to them all at once rather than only take 1 post, take a couple key sentences, and then fail to even process the abridged version that you left in the quote tags. [/QUOTE] I'm not going to respond to every single post in 1 giant post. I think it would end up confusing me. I think the rest of your post where you said everyone dislikes random crits was basically just calling me bad at arguing. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096359] You can't avoid hitscan and you can't reasonably escape the splash of a well-aimed rocket wholly due to how fuckhuge the explosion itself is. Yes, falloff exists but crits negate falloff which makes even taking a glancing blow from a crit explosion is going to cut through your health like a hot knife through butter. Anyone can avoid a shot that's not being aimed properly, but at the ranges that matter, you're not dodging for shit unless you weren't going to be getting hit in the first place. Remember this conversation is about [i]competitive[/i] players. People who can actually aim and move and strafe and surf and all sorts of advanced [i]skills[/i] that want to put their [i]skill[/i] to the test against similarly [i]skilled[/i] players. Now why would it be that you might not fit in with this crowd? [/QUOTE] You can try to avoid where the person is aiming with hitscan. Random crits only negate distance falloff, not splash damage falloff. So do people never dodge a close range shot in Competitive? I don't fit in with that crowd because I am not skilled at TF2. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096359]This thing, that no players can actually control, that removes the importance of reaction time and proper movement adds depth :downs: Take your horribly misinformed opinions and shove them.[/QUOTE] You can control random crits to a degree, due to the whole scaling chance thing. The same thing allows you to anticipate them to a degree. How do they remove the importance of reaction time or movement? Random crits don't occur all the time, and they are not the only factor. TF2 with random crits is not a game solely based on luck. Even if randomness is a heavy factor in a game does not mean it can't have skill as a highly significant factor (see blackjack or poker for instance, they both have competitive tournaments). Why don't you shove your opinions first?

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096683]You can try to avoid where the person is aiming with hitscan. Random crits only negate distance falloff, not splash damage falloff.[/quote]At the range of combat that matters, the distance is short enough that it's incredibly hard to dodge properly unless they are currently airstrafing or have a second jump. Footspeed alone isn't sufficient when talking about this level of aim in the hands of the general combat classes. [QUOTE=ASIC;53096683]So do people never dodge a close range shot in Competitive?[/quote]Aside from the above mentioned movement states, it's more that the person aiming winds up missing. Close-mid skirmishes are different than close fights, there's a lot more rotation and precision required when body masses move so quickly relative to your field of view. Make no mistake their aim is good, but they are neither aimbots nor are they capable of aiming at multiple things at once. Rarely will a fight be decided by 1v1s. Teamfights are integral to overwhelming your opponent if they are caught out of position, you catch them mid-reload, if you have superior numbers in firepower, or you have superior numbers in health. Even scouts fighting on the flanks will typically have residual overheal from their medic before they embark, which can tip the scales in their favor if they bump into the enemy scout on the same flank. That extra buffer of health easily means the difference between 2 and 3 mid-close range shots, but the player with superior movement and aim will be able to output damage more efficiently. [QUOTE=ASIC;53096683]I don't fit in with that crowd because I am not skilled at TF2.[/quote]It shows [QUOTE=ASIC;53096683]You can control random crits to a degree, due to the whole scaling chance thing. The same thing allows you to anticipate them to a degree.[/quote] This is some [i]heart of the cards[/i] level of bullshit and you know it. [QUOTE=ASIC;53096683]How do they remove the importance of reaction time or movement?[/quote]You don't get time to react or time to move because you're dead. [QUOTE=ASIC;53096683]Random crits don't occur all the time, and they are not the only factor. TF2 with random crits is not a game solely based on luck.[/quote]Enough people detested random crits so much that they convinced Valve to actually code nocrit into the game so they could disable it in-engine instead of having to rely on sourcemod. [QUOTE=ASIC;53096683]Even if randomness is a heavy factor in a game does not mean it can't have skill as a highly significant factor (see blackjack or poker for instance, they both have competitive tournaments).[/quote]TF2 isn't Blackjack. TF2 isn't Poker. TF2 isn't DotA. And TF2 isn't whatever other example you want to pull out of your ass next. We aren't here for games that were designed around randomness at their core. TF2 is an arena-oriented class-based teamwork-centric objective-focused first-person shooter with a heavy emphasis on close-range encounters dictated by movement and high burst damage. Befitting of a game that derived from a mod based in the Quakeworld engine. This is a TF2 thread, talk about TF2. When you strip away random crits, TF2 is still an incredibly deep game. The movement, the guns, the ways that classes interplay with one another, how objectives drive map flow, even down to little things like how respawns are issued in waves. Then there's random crits that pull everything out from under you because someone got a lucky diceroll.

[QUOTE=DrCactus;53096594]Please stop. Every time this happens it never goes anywhere, and just ends with people getting annoyed with each other.[/QUOTE] It's not our fault that somehow after a decade, players still possess an uninformed or warped view of balance. Usually it's one or two apathetic users who feel the need to present their utterly unreasonable opinions as legitimate arguments just because they oppose consensus or for that matter rational conclusions.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;53096725]It's not our fault that somehow after a decade, players still possess an uninformed or warped view of balance. Usually it's one or two apathetic users who feel the need to present their utterly unreasonable opinions as legitimate arguments just because they oppose consensus or for that matter rational conclusions.[/QUOTE] Why are random crits unbalanced? Difference in how they work between classes? My opinions are reasonable, My arguments are legitimate, and my conclusions are rational. I'm fairly certain that there is no consensus on random crits, given that I earlier showed that people were pretty evenly split on whether they liked them or not.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096765]Why are random crits unbalanced? Difference in how they work between classes?[/QUOTE] Did you really just fucking ask this question Are you serious? Where have you been when literally everybody in this thread is explaining exactly that to you?

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53096774]Did you really just fucking ask this question Are you serious? Where have you been when literally everybody in this thread is explaining exactly that to you?[/QUOTE] Well, what do you mean by unbalanced? Unequal Power levels or something else?

It's unbalanced. It's literally not in line with the balance of the current game. It's an outlier. It doesn't fit in right. There's no feasible situation where it would be balanced in a game like TF2. It throws every notion of balance in any context out the window because of how powerful it is. Any situation that has possible balance or deep gameplay with strategic thought processes is turned into luck as soon as the gun's bullet or rocket or pipebomb or stickybomb becomes a random crit. That's how it's unbalanced. It is, quite literally, not balanced. It's not a complex notion, unbalanced means not balanced, which means not in line with the balance of the game at hand. Random crits aren't balanced in TF2.

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53096782]It's unbalanced. It's literally not in line with the balance of the current game. It's an outlier. It doesn't fit in right. There's no feasible situation where it would be balanced in a game like TF2. It throws every notion of balance in any context out the window because of how powerful it is. Any situation that has possible balance or deep gameplay with strategic thought processes is turned into luck as soon as the gun's bullet or rocket or pipebomb or stickybomb becomes a random crit. That's how it's unbalanced. It is, quite literally, not balanced. It's not a complex notion, unbalanced means not balanced, which means not in line with the balance of the game at hand. Random crits aren't balanced in TF2.[/QUOTE] That isn't unbalanced in the sense of power level inequality, you are basically saying that you consider them to have too much of an impact on the game.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096781]Well, what do you mean by unbalanced? Unequal Power levels or something else?[/QUOTE] One person may get a crit, but the other person isn't guaranteed a crit in return.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096704]At the range of combat that matters, the distance is short enough that it's incredibly hard to dodge properly unless they are currently airstrafing or have a second jump. Footspeed alone isn't sufficient when talking about this level of aim in the hands of the general combat classes.[/QUOTE] Ok. So, in the situations like those, isn't the fight pretty much decided from the moment when they bump into each other? [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096704] Aside from the above mentioned movement states, it's more that the person aiming winds up missing. Close-mid skirmishes are different than close fights, there's a lot more rotation and precision required when body masses move so quickly relative to your field of view. Make no mistake their aim is good, but they are neither aimbots nor are they capable of aiming at multiple things at once. Rarely will a fight be decided by 1v1s. Teamfights are integral to overwhelming your opponent if they are caught out of position, you catch them mid-reload, if you have superior numbers in firepower, or you have superior numbers in health. Even scouts fighting on the flanks will typically have residual overheal from their medic before they embark, which can tip the scales in their favor if they bump into the enemy scout on the same flank. That extra buffer of health easily means the difference between 2 and 3 mid-close range shots, but the player with superior movement and aim will be able to output damage more efficiently.[/QUOTE] Ok. I had something else I was going to say here, but I'm not sure what it was exactly. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096704] It shows[/QUOTE] So? [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096704] This is some [i]heart of the cards[/i] level of bullshit and you know it.[/QUOTE] Why? A example would be with melee crits, although that is a more exaggerated/noticeable case. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096704] You don't get time to react or time to move because you're dead.[/QUOTE] So is that bad because you weren't able to react, or because it was outside of their direct control? [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096704] Enough people detested random crits so much that they convinced Valve to actually code nocrit into the game so they could disable it in-engine instead of having to rely on sourcemod.[/QUOTE] That means people dislike them, it doesn't mean that TF2 is solely based on luck. It's not an overwhelming majority of people who dislike them either, given what I showed earlier. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;53096704] TF2 isn't Blackjack. TF2 isn't Poker. TF2 isn't DotA. And TF2 isn't whatever other example you want to pull out of your ass next. We aren't here for games that were designed around randomness at their core. TF2 is an arena-oriented class-based teamwork-centric objective-focused first-person shooter with a heavy emphasis on close-range encounters dictated by movement and high burst damage. Befitting of a game that derived from a mod based in the Quakeworld engine. This is a TF2 thread, talk about TF2. When you strip away random crits, TF2 is still an incredibly deep game. The movement, the guns, the ways that classes interplay with one another, how objectives drive map flow, even down to little things like how respawns are issued in waves. Then there's random crits that pull everything out from under you because someone got a lucky diceroll.[/QUOTE] Dota 2, and CS:GO were not designed around randomness at their core (at least in same way tf2 wasn't). Comparing stuff to TF2, is still talking about TF2. Take away all randomness, and those 2 games would still be deep. Both of them have stuff where you get screwed because of a lucky diceroll.

Decided to look up the original reddit post for the 5000 respondent strawpoll. [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/2d8ppr/a_simple_question_that_id_like_rtf2_to_answer/[/url] The strawpoll page claims it was asked on Apr 16, 2016. The reddit post was made on August 11, 2014 by a user who is no longer active. The post got around 200 upvotes while the strawpoll managed to get 5,000, so take that as you will. Here's a look at more recent strawpolls about random crits on the subreddit. [B]February 23, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/5vq9i8/poll_random_crits/[/url] 200 votes [I] [B]54% Remove[/B][/I]; 19% Keep; 27% Other [B]April 4, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/63dd3e/what_do_you_think_about_random_crits_survey/[/url] 200 votes [I][B]28% Remove[/B][/I]; 18% Keep; 53% Other (this one had a lot of other categories) [B]August 20, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/6usjms/random_crits_melee_on_or_off/[/url] 1000 votes [I][B]49% Remove[/B][/I]; 29% Melee; 22% Keep [B]December 25, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7m12ko/what_do_you_think_of_random_crits_poll/[/url] 350 votes [I][B]41% Remove;[/B][/I] 20% Keep; 39% Other Oddly enough, there's a user named "remember_morick_yori" who keep using the 5000 respondents link as an argument on more recent subreddit discussion even though it's 4 years out of date. So what happened to the TF2 player count in August 11, 2014? The Love and War Update was released on June 18, 2014.

Well that consistently shows that less than half of people want them removed, while the other half is either fine with them or want them improved. Democratically that means removing them is not the way to go.

[QUOTE=Antary;53096801]One person may get a crit, but the other person isn't guaranteed a crit in return.[/QUOTE] In a similar line of reasoning, I can say that killing other characters is unbalanced as you don't die in return.

[QUOTE=Drury;53096825]Well that consistently shows that less than half of people want them removed, while the other half is either fine with them or want them improved. Democratically that means removing them is not the way to go.[/QUOTE] Removing random crits definitely has the plurality instead of an absolute majority. Keeping random crits tends to fall as the third choice. The other category pulls ahead of outright keeping random crits and is mostly variations of curtailing the extent of random crits.