TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Upgrade;53096819]Decided to look up the original reddit post for the 5000 respondent strawpoll. [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/2d8ppr/a_simple_question_that_id_like_rtf2_to_answer/[/url] The strawpoll page claims it was asked on Apr 16, 2016. The reddit post was made on August 11, 2014 by a user who is no longer active. The post got around 200 upvotes while the strawpoll managed to get 5,000, so take that as you will. Here's a look at more recent strawpolls about random crits on the subreddit. [B]February 23, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/5vq9i8/poll_random_crits/[/url] 200 votes [I] [B]54% Remove[/B][/I]; 19% Keep; 27% Other [B]April 4, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/63dd3e/what_do_you_think_about_random_crits_survey/[/url] 200 votes [I][B]28% Remove[/B][/I]; 18% Keep; 53% Other (this one had a lot of other categories) [B]August 20, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/6usjms/random_crits_melee_on_or_off/[/url] 1000 votes [I][B]49% Remove[/B][/I]; 29% Melee; 22% Keep [B]December 25, 2017[/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7m12ko/what_do_you_think_of_random_crits_poll/[/url] 350 votes [I][B]41% Remove;[/B][/I] 20% Keep; 39% Other Oddly enough, there's a user named "remember_morick_yori" who keep using the 5000 respondents link as an argument on more recent subreddit discussion even though it's 4 years out of date. So what happened to the TF2 player count in August 11, 2014? The Love and War Update was released on June 18, 2014.[/QUOTE] I thought the poll I brought up was newer. The poll should still be at least decently accurate, as nothing that would severely shakeup the TF2 user base comes to mind at the moment. It also has a larger sample size, so it should be more accurate (at least for the time it was made). One thing to consider is what exactly is the question being asked in the poll. Asking a person "do you like random crits" might result in a different answer from "do you think random crits should be changed or removed?", as people's views can have nuance.

[QUOTE=ASIC;53096827]In a similar line of reasoning, I can say that killing other characters is unbalanced as you don't die in return.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure this is a strawman. Do try to keep talking about crits. The simple fact is that in a situation where two players have access to the exact same weapons, one may get a crit while the other may not, creating a pretty literal disbalance.

[QUOTE=ASIC]-Too much to realistically quote at this point-[/QUOTE] I'm going to try to put it in layman's terms so you can understand why people dislike random crits in TF2. You play DotA, right? I'm going to use Juggernaut as an example, which is a pretty straight-forward hero. He has a passive ability called Blade Dance which has a 20%/25%/30%/35% chance to inflict a crit that does 200% damage (based on the ability's level). This ability also uses pseudo-random distribution for whenever Juggernaut should receive crits coming from this ability or not. Right off the bat, there's various comparisons to be done: Juggernaut has crit chance as a passive ability which can be leveled, which compliments its carry-oriented, position 1 kit (hard carry), while on TF2, everyone has random crits as a [I]posibility[/I] which shows in various degrees. I say posibility, instead of ability, because no class itself is balanced around random crits themselves, and even then it's skewed between classes: a soldier or demo might throw out a random crit projectile, but a Heavy and a Scout with the Shortstop will receive 2 seconds of random crits, which makes them deadly at any range because hitscan bullets that cannot be dodged will result in being dealt ~36 damage every ~0,3 seconds. You can dodge a crocket which was thrown at a long range because the particles really do yell "this is dangerous!" at you, but if you're in somebody's line of vision and they use hitscan, then if they roll for random crits, you will not be able to avoid it. This is why, among many reasons I'll point out, random crits in TF2 are inherently unbalanced, since none of the classes were built or balanced around random crits. Pseudo-random distribution in DotA2, and specifically in this case, for Blade Dance, is very simple: the more you hit, the more chances you have for crits to proc. It's not rocket science, and you're able to vaguely guess when is a Juggernaut going to crit the more he hits at something, but it's not an absolute guarantee. TF2's random critical system is much more complicated and wild: you get more chances for random crits the more damage you deal, for Engineers this also applies for their sentries and for Medics this applies to their healing patients' damage as well. Over time, if you stop dealing damage, the crit chances go down, and these chances also depend on what weapon, melee or not, is being used. While Blade Dance, being a DPS steroid, has a more predictable randomness method considering that if you see the enemy Juggernaut, you can know and possibly guess the level of Blade Dance, how many creeps he's hitting (which will cause crits to come out sooner), etc., in TF2, how will you be able to guess how much damage the enemy Scout did at first glance when you encounter him? How can someone guess how much damage did the enemy Medic's patient before they died from of a random crit made by the Medic himself using melee, which has a higher critical chance? You cannot see everybody in the map the same way you can in DotA2, so it's much more unpredictable. Now, for the sake of example, let's theoretically assume that our Juggernaut levels Blade Dance first, even though this is a horrible idea in DotA2 for various reasons. During the laning phase, if you see Juggernaut critting creeps, then you know he's leveled Blade Dance first as an ability if you're the enemy. Let's assume that a gank is happening right now, at level one: Juggernaut does 50 damage per hit, and 20% of the time, Blade Dance will give him a 200% crit boost that will deal 100 damage. Against an intelligence hero, that's roughly a bit more than a fourth of their health pool, but against a strength hero, it's much lower, around ~1/6 or even ~1/7, but a crit against any hero will not instantly kill them, in contrast to TF2, in which random crits deal 300% of the base damage and don't suffer distance falloff, which is what makes weapons weaker from a distance which also balances them for mid- to close-range encounters. In DotA2, even if you get crit'd in the face, you still have various methods to survive such encounters, like your own spells and abilities, [URL="https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Ghost_Scepter"]ghost scepter[/URL], invisibility, and hell, even if you get a random crit in DotA2, you still have a chance to miss because of evasion or a height disadvantage, but in TF2, you have to get out of the way of the projectile since nobody except an overhealed heavy can tank one. Very usually, being in the way of a random crit means instant death and it's almost impossible to prevent it when it happens, with only very few resources being able to prevent it which are difficult to obtain, like (vaccinator) über or a batallion's backup buff. Health pools in TF2 are very low in comparison to the damage classes can deal, and we're talking about classes that can do 104 damage to health pools as low as 125 hp, maybe even less, in comparison to DotA2, which it requires quite some damage to kill another hero, crits or not. Games like DotA2 can afford to be balanced around randomness in lots of cases because they're much more forgiving when it comes to health pools, damage, and overall has a bigger scope in general allowing for relatively easy counterplay against these mechanics as well. TF2 has [I]some[/I] counterplay around criticals, but it's nothing anybody can realistically expect in their casual match, like über or a battalion's backup buff, and they're much, much less coordinated than a casual DotA2 match as well. I hope this was insightful to you for why people dislike random crits and I hope you understand why people would want to take them out of the casual experience.

Random crits are fun for the person dishing them out but not fun for the guy getting one shotted by a semi-luck system,if it was removed the people getting their ass kicked into them wont have to fear about losing randomly and the attacker will continue to fight the same way with the skill he already has achieved no matter if the crits were enabled or not.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53096571]yea keep giving them excuses if it makes you feel better[/QUOTE] good job into giving me intentions that they didnt make the cut for jungle inferno is fucking awful and honestly pretty upsetting given the massive amount of time they go, I aint giving them excuses, they fucked up big time I'm saying that, however, there IS a positive in this fuck-up EDIT: Please stop talking to ASIC as it will devolve into a black hole, just let him have his special opinions, he wont ever change it.

Ahh, the great Random Crit debate.

Didn't we have this entire discussion already in the last thread? [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1586131&p=52972796#post52972796"]Right.[/URL] Don't feed the trolls.

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53096858]Random crits are fun for the person dishing them out but not fun for the guy getting one shotted by a semi-luck system,if it was removed the people getting their ass kicked into them wont have to fear about losing randomly and the attacker will continue to fight the same way with the skill he already has achieved no matter if the crits were enabled or not.[/QUOTE] Honestly I don't even find random crits fun when I get them, I just feel bad I that I just won that fight just because I happened to randomly get 3x damage, not because of my skill at the game.

it's not him bitching about them

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53094782]People are deliberately taking the piss out of you because you can't get it through your skull that deciding the outcome of a skillful encounter before any of the skill is put into practice by pure chance is a bunch of bullshit. TF2 encounters are fast-paced and lethal. Critical hits turn what is already a short-lived encounter into a 1-shot encounter. The difference being that it removes all semblance of special movement (such as surfing off of an opponent's attack knockback) and your own reaction time is nullified in an instant because someone clicked [i]near you[/i] first. Something that would normally have done forty or fifty damage suddenly dealing [i]three-hundred[/i] damage through no volition of either the attacker or the target has absolutely no place in a competitive environment. Even the most-extreme critical strikes in DotA that you praise so much aren't that extreme. At best there's Tusks Walrus Punch at 450% damage (which is already a guaranteed crit) and doesn't come close to the 600% effective damage increase from the above example of shooting a crocket at someone's geolocation. If you want to look at general random crits in DotA, they're even weaker -- offering average DPS increases capping out at around 50% for characters already predisposed to use certain abilities. Here's the kicker though: TF2 isn't a game about DPS, it's a game about burst damage. This is the TF2 thread, we don't give a flying shit about DotA, talk about TF2 in a TF2 setting. If you bring up DotA again as some form of contrived defense of random crits in a competitive setting, you're doing nothing short of shitposting. All you do is ask vacuous "well but what if..." questions about tf2 random crits like a child that doesn't understand how to infer reasoning on their own.[/QUOTE] Rockets only do 40 damage at their furthest range, at which point you really should notice a crocket coming at you. PA has a 450% damage crit. Burst damage is there in Dota 2 (although not to the extent in TF2). I didn't bring up Dota 2 this time, you did. I also am relatively certain I didn't bring up its crits last time. Anyways, whiles it is on the menu: Dying to a low health Spirit breaker, Phantom Assassin, or Faceless Void when you were initially full health might be an example of an entirely luck based death in dota 2.

Can we just drop the crit subject? We literally just got a mod warning, and the thread title was changed. Maybe after a while we can have the old title back. I liked the guard dog reference.

[QUOTE=Kiwi;53096929]I haven't warned anyone. Merely taking the piss but sure let's go with that because it seems to be that people are tired of the same endless discussion that goes nowhere.[/QUOTE] I'm not tired of the discussion yet, but I'll go with that.

So i wonder why are some halloween items restricted and some are not even if they from a halloween set or that they would fit in a halloween set but yet they are free all the time such as the yeti heavy.

[QUOTE=Drury;53096899]it's not him bitching about them[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Kiwi;53096902]Joke went way over the head of this one.[/QUOTE] The joke is related to what my username means.

[QUOTE=Drury;53096825]Well that consistently shows that less than half of people want them removed, while the other half is either fine with them or want them improved. Democratically that means removing them is not the way to go.[/QUOTE] Good thing this isn't a democracy. The opinions of bad/apathetic players must be thrown out in any reasonable development process, as there will always be too many of them to balance via lowest common denominator. Visit any game forum, and you will find scrubs/new players clamoring for changes or the keeping of things they want based off a lack of skill, only to be shut down by veterans and competitive players. It's just how the video game industry works. Case and point, if reddit/the steam discussions had their way, heavy, demo, and basically everything that commonly pub stomps you would have been nerfed into oblivion, vastly more so than the nerfs they've got over the years.

Yes, and if you go through with changes without asking people first you end up with a barely functional matchmaking system. It goes both ways.

here is a better topic design creative and gameplay related bonuses for contracts Examples: - Killstreak ones are related to gameplay and pose a challenge and are non-enemy relying. - Bad ones are "defend XY" as they depend on enemy behavior.

Nobody's going to talk about how Elon Musk is funding a real life Mann. Co? [IMG]https://imgur.com/ltdpfog.png[/IMG] [IMG]https://imgur.com/9Sudw4O.png[/IMG] [B][I]These are all the website sells.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=CMS2000;53097049]Nobody's going to talk about how Elon Musk is funding a real life Mann. Co? [IMG]https://imgur.com/ltdpfog.png[/IMG] [IMG]https://imgur.com/9Sudw4O.png[/IMG] [B][I]These are all the website sells.[/I][/B][/QUOTE] Imagine an extremely rare chance to get a real life weapon from a case.

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;53097107]Imagine an extremely rare chance to get a real life weapon from a case.[/QUOTE] [t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/5/5c/Minigun_concept1.png[/t] What I wouldn't give...

[QUOTE=CMS2000;53097049]Nobody's going to talk about how Elon Musk is funding a real life Mann. Co? [IMG]https://imgur.com/ltdpfog.png[/IMG] [IMG]https://imgur.com/9Sudw4O.png[/IMG] [B][I]These are all the website sells.[/I][/B][/QUOTE] [t]https://i.imgur.com/FbdBI6c.jpg[/t] [t]https://i.imgur.com/kuvRn1J.png[/t] [t]https://i.imgur.com/CHGVxdN.png[/t]

Was the title change really necessary lol

I approve of the title change.

it was necessary because of the amazing debate about random crits that doesn't go anywhere

[QUOTE=ASIC;53097214]I approve of the title change.[/QUOTE] Shut up, ASIC. Nobody asked for your opinion. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Rude" - Kiwi))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=ASIC;53097214]I approve of the title change.[/QUOTE] You seem to have a habit of approving bad, poorly thought out things.

I hope they fix the bugs with the visual flame particles, where they stutter and lag and another bug where they stretch in a strange way, like this [t]https://i.redd.it/q11hpqzjfbd01.jpg[/t] [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7u6l48/laggy_tf2_is_a_dark_scary_place/"]source[/URL]

they say they improved visual consistency on flamethrower particles yet they sometimes spawn at the pyros feet and are barely visible also love it when snipers appear to be in idle stance even thought they are scoped in

I decided to get some tour of duty tickets and finish my tour of operation 2 cities. I probably decided to do it because of the titanium tank thing.

[QUOTE=Fillmore;53097311]it was necessary because of the amazing debate about random crits that doesn't go anywhere[/QUOTE] Thanks to one person, and only one.