TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

If they do do tutorial contracts they should be voiced by Saxton Hale, JB Blanc does voice work for Dota 2 I believe so it's probably not that hard to schedule more sessions. Also what do you think of Blanc's performance in the JI short?

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53177795]If they do do tutorial contracts they should be voiced by Saxton Hale, JB Blanc does voice work for Dota 2 I believe so it's probably not that hard to schedule more sessions. Also what do you think of Blanc's performance in the JI short?[/QUOTE] I guess they could do simplistic contracts via tutorial. At least to cover the basics... Not sure if more complicated ones would be doable would they?

[QUOTE=Oizen;53177777]The game isnt balanced so why pretend it is?[/QUOTE] the notion of balance is a comodity. no game will ever be balanced nor any game will ever [I]feel[/I] balanced. because balance implies that everyone will have an equal chance to win and lose, wich is nearly imposible when you even attemp to to factor in everything that can determine the outcome of a fight. you can mitigate certain elements, but even with the best scenario posible and with everything tested your best hope is for a 60/40 chance.

[QUOTE=Metaru;53177820]the notion of balance is a comodity. no game will ever be balanced nor any game will ever [I]feel[/I] balanced. because balance implies that everyone will have an equal chance to win and lose, wich is nearly imposible when you even attemp to to factor in everything that can determine the outcome of a fight. you can mitigate certain elements, but even with the best scenario posible and with everything tested your best hope is for a 60/40 chance.[/QUOTE] So Valve's balance work is useless entirely?

[QUOTE=Metaru;53177820]the notion of balance is a comodity. no game will ever be balanced nor any game will ever [I]feel[/I] balanced. because balance implies that everyone will have an equal chance to win and lose, wich is nearly imposible when you even attemp to to factor in everything that can determine the outcome of a fight. you can mitigate certain elements, but even with the best scenario posible and with everything tested your best hope is for a 60/40 chance.[/QUOTE] True, humans aren't meant to be able to achieve perfection. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for it either. The best you can hope for is to get as close as possible to perfection. As well, striving to improve a game, even one as old as this one is not inherently bad by any means. [QUOTE=Blackavar;53177836]So Valve's balance work is useless entirely?[/QUOTE] Striving for better balance is reasonable expectation. Expecting perfection from updates is an unrealistic expectation. We're human beings, which are in no way or form perfect and never will be.No one is against wanting to improve the game. But people in the community need to stop pretending that it's actually possible to fix every problem like all you had to do is wave a magic wand for everyone that plays this game. It's why I never get hyped for updates either... If you expect something to be the best thing ever, more then likely you'll always be disappointed with the end result no matter how well it's done. Because it's not "perfect".

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53177836]So Valve's balance work is useless entirely?[/QUOTE] scout soldier and demo ruled in 2007 scout soldier and demo still rule in 2018 so yes

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53177892]scout soldier and demo ruled in 2007 scout soldier and demo still rule in 2018 so yes[/QUOTE] They intended them to be generalists in the dev commentary, and if balancing is ineffective why even bother anymore? (also is Pyro limited to one in 6s? Dual Pyros instead of Scouts could be interesting)

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53177948]They intended them to be generalists in the dev commentary, and if balancing is ineffective why even bother anymore? (also is Pyro limited to one in 6s? Dual Pyros instead of Scouts could be interesting)[/QUOTE] Depends on the approach. Personally, if I had to do it my way I'd focus on the following when trying to fix them... 1. Address as many bugs as possible and see where he stands, test out. 2. Go from there with small little changes here and there to push him in the general direction I feel he needed to go in in order to compete with the other classes. 3. I'd probably have released purposely at a weaker state then the others. Not for the sake of being mean or stating I didn't want him to be a generalist. But to get more input from other people, then take that info and see what directions would best benefit further pushing is needed in order to get him in a good solid place. Even if he's not where he was intended to be at first release, people would probably be happy with the results because he was at least improved upon and better then he was previous. Keeping purposely weaker is also a sort of safety net so he won't become disruptive and problematic in case I over shot something.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53177970]Depends on the approach. Personally, if I had to do it my way I'd focus on the following when trying to fix them... 1. Address as many bugs as possible and see where he stands, test out. 2. Go from there with small little changes here and there to push him in the general direction I feel he needed to go in in order to compete with the other classes. 3. I'd probably have released purposely at a weaker state then the others. Not for the sake of being mean or stating I didn't want him to be a generalist. But to get more input from other people, then take that info and see what directions would best benefit further pushing is needed in order to get him in a good solid place. Even if he's not where he was intended to be at first release, people would probably be happy with the results because he was at least improved upon and better then he was previous. Keeping purposely weaker is also a sort of safety net so he won't become disruptive and problematic in case I over shot something.[/QUOTE] Are you talking about rebalancing the generalists to make the other classes more viable or making Pyro into more of a generalist?

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53177978]Are you talking about rebalancing the generalists to make the other classes more viable or making Pyro into more of a generalist?[/QUOTE] Well, the goal was to make Pyro at least a more viable class. But I do recall it being mentioned that they aimed to make pyro turn out to be closer to that of a generalist in general though.

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53177948]They intended them to be generalists in the dev commentary, and if balancing is ineffective why even bother anymore? (also is Pyro limited to one in 6s? Dual Pyros instead of Scouts could be interesting)[/QUOTE] A dual pyro meta would rob 6s of the immense mechanical skill depth that comes along with running scout and replace it with M1 and rushdown gameplay. That's not terribly interesting.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53178030]A dual pyro meta would rob 6s of the immense mechanical skill depth that comes along with running scout and replace it with M1 and rushdown gameplay. That's not terribly interesting.[/QUOTE] Even dual DF Pyros? Also here's a fun challenge, play Pyro, but actually try to aim and lead targets with the flamethrower.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53178030]A dual pyro meta would rob 6s of the immense mechanical skill depth that comes along with running scout and replace it with M1 and rushdown gameplay. That's not terribly interesting.[/QUOTE] That's were skill indexing would generally benefit at that point. Where you make changes that are intended to up the skill requirement to run the class without hurting it's general damage output.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53177892]scout soldier and demo ruled in 2007 scout soldier and demo still rule in 2018 so yes[/QUOTE] This is mostly a misconception caused by people who are just looking from the outside into 6s. A format that has limited classes, a lot of banned weapons and only plays one game mode. The format specifically went out of its way to keep certain other classes niche, otherwise playing the game isn't exactly fun. The true meta of tf2 is actually pretty obscure due to there being no good matchmaking or way to play 6v6 serious matches in the game. But without class bans or weapon bans, it definitely isn't the 6s people know and tolerate. [QUOTE=TheBorealis;53178035]Even dual DF Pyros? Also here's a fun challenge, play Pyro, but actually try to aim and lead targets with the flamethrower.[/QUOTE] Still isn't as nearly as high skill as the 6s trio. Especially considering how broken Pyro currently is in his current state.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53178065]This is mostly a misconception caused by people who are just looking from the outside into 6s. A format that has limited classes, a lot of banned weapons and only plays one game mode. The format specifically went out of its way to keep certain other classes niche, otherwise playing the game isn't exactly fun.[/QUOTE] err no I wasn't thinking of competitive. if you want to get anything done even in pubs you go one of these 3. Comp only highlights the best tactics of TF2 which the vast majority are blind to.

So the join in progress still isn't working correctly. Yesterday I was in a group with friends and we had one player slot available on our team. The server had 23/24 players. Another friend joined the party and he had to wait several minutes for the matchmaker to put him in that game, despite there being exactly 1 free slot on the server and on our team. We had to sit there watching it say searching for player while there was a player right there waiting.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53178082]err no I wasn't thinking of competitive. if you want to get anything done even in pubs you go one of these 3. [/QUOTE] Sounds like you're not trying hard enough imo.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53178082]err no I wasn't thinking of competitive. if you want to get anything done even in pubs you go one of these 3. Comp only highlights the best tactics of TF2 which the vast majority are blind to.[/QUOTE] In a pub setting... I'd question it to an extent. I will also admit though that it's a bit hard to judge when peoples skill at the game is all over the place in pubs. For instance, I rarely see good scouts function in a pub setting. But I also usually have more issues dealing with heavies in casual matches then I do Soldiers and demomen oddly enough. I presume it's because heavies easier to preform seeing as his primary is Hitscan. Don't have to prodict both enemy movement and your projectile to land hits, only holding down the M1 while keeping the crosshair over the target.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53178089]Sounds like you're not trying hard enough imo.[/QUOTE] well yes, pyro and heavy can kill idiots just fine, but the generalists have always been the way to go when there's serious opposition. sniper is deadly and all, but at the end of the day he won't stand on that point or clear up routes. spy is just a dps check against the enemy, but replace "dps" with "brain".

Sorry, I know this is old, but Exor, you've been making these kinds of posts on Reddit too and I don't think you're giving 6v6 a fair shake. [QUOTE=Lord Exor;53177185]What tipped you off about that? Of course I'm not interested in a format that limits the game so much.[/QUOTE] There's no time limit for offclassing. They ban for "ineffective" offclassing, like throwing the game for your team by running an engi to mid or something. You can play all the Pyro and Heavy you want as long as you have an impact that's actively helping your team. The admins have said that if the meta changes, they'll look less harshly on it. Not to mention that Sniper and Spy are already very common plays to make on any point at all besides the initial mid fight. I genuinely believe that 6v6 is the most dynamic and strategic version of this game that we have. Every class has a use, and this new FaceIt system has opened things up to experiment with the meta (again, as long as you aren't actively hurting your team). The beginner hub on TF2PL is especially great for tactical off classing to really turn the tide of a match. I've seen a guy go Spy and just shut down the enemy team over and over because they didn't have that extreme intuition and instant counter play that invite level players would, and this player was just a really effective spy. On a round of Product, I switched from Soldier to Pyro and played pocket for the medic, which led to some reflect kills/saves and great defense from flanking scouts. I realize this post probably doesn't matter, but I feel so passionate about TF2 and I'm really behind what TF2PL is trying to accomplish. 6v6 isn't a mode where you can only play 4 classes or else you'll be banned because people don't like those other classes, and it's unfair to characterize it that way.

Spy is something I don't get, for competitive. Like, in the chaos of a 12v12 pub game, I can still easily avoid death by spy, save the odd facestab. How is it they're accomplishing anything at all with that offclass?

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53178082]err no I wasn't thinking of competitive. if you want to get anything done even in pubs you go one of these 3. Comp only highlights the best tactics of TF2 which the vast majority are blind to.[/QUOTE] dont know what high elite pubs you visit but im pretty sure even a battle medic can get "shit done" in valve pubs

I wish competitive balancing mods were more popular. I've worked on weapon mods before and it's not hard to change things up pretty radically with SourceMod. The community could get so much done and tested that way, probably better and faster than Valve ever will.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilVO6wuxVhE[/url] Not sure if this is on here. We should get hype for a community MvM update. Maybe a miracal happens.

[QUOTE=gjw22;53178676][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilVO6wuxVhE[/url] Not sure if this is on here. We should get hype for a community MvM update. Maybe a miracal happens.[/QUOTE] I really need to at least make sure I get one tour in to at least give it a try before they shutdown. I really do enjoy playing MvM so getting a taste of something fresh would be a nice change of pace.

[QUOTE=gjw22;53178676][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilVO6wuxVhE[/url] Not sure if this is on here. We should get hype for a community MvM update. Maybe a miracal happens.[/QUOTE] We just had a community MvM update? The titanium tank tour is the closest thing to real content we've had in years, it even got a medal.

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;53176289]Oh boy, German🅱️eter. [video]https://youtu.be/xfMrdty8LNw[/video] take a shot every time he says "nice" or "nicer" to get free alcohol poisoning[/QUOTE] Dude, you don't get free alcohol for watching the video. You'll need to pay for it.

I know there's TF port and Tf2Classic and all those other mods but what I really want is a TF2 mod based on 2011-2012. To me that was the golden era. The gameplay was fun and varied without each class having 50 different playstyles, and the artistic direction wasnt totally shit on with bad cosmetics. Can I go back? I know we look back at weapons like the original Ambassador, backburner, and axtinguisher with borderline disgust, but I don't remember them being too bad, though admittedly the axtinguisher was basically an upgrade.

[QUOTE=gjw22;53178676][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilVO6wuxVhE[/url] Not sure if this is on here. We should get hype for a community MvM update. Maybe a miracal happens.[/QUOTE] Yeah Valve not make community mvm maps/missions official is pretty frustrating. I played through all of titanium tank and really enjoyed it, Powerplant, Teien and Waterfront were my favorite maps/missions. I'm not sure if these maps have other missions, I would assume if Valve made them official they would want more than one official mission.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;53178833]Yeah Valve not make community mvm maps/missions official is pretty frustrating. I played through all of titanium tank and really enjoyed it, Powerplant, Teien and Waterfront were my favorite maps/missions. I'm not sure if these maps have other missions, I would assume if Valve made them official they would want more than one official mission.[/QUOTE] Titanium Tank was a mission making contest specifically for maps you had no stake in. The maps had missions when they were originally were made.