TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Jonii;53180226]That's ideal, and the pros agree, but competitive TF2 is the way it is because they've tried all of this over the past ten years and found what's the most dynamic, fun to play, and watch.. So here are the issues with that: 1. Resupply near the point means you can switch classes and instantly have full HP and ammo whenever. This is highly highly exploitable. KOTH maps are already small enough that you can just run back or change on death and it's not an issue getting to the point. Not even for Heavy! Also, there are only two well designed/balanced KOTH maps at the moment. 2. There are basically no well designed A/D maps right now, but even if there were more... The whole point of the game then becomes for red to just stalemate the game. You can see on Overwatch League how this can get really boring really fast.[/QUOTE] 1. They aren't small enough that a class can run back to spawn, change to Heavy, and make it all the way back before major damage could've been done to the 5-man team (it's a good 20-25 seconds according to tests just now, from Scout to Heavy [with GRU], on Viaduct). And by that point you're back on offense, so Heavy is less useful. My idea for this KOTH is that it would be a bit bigger than the current KOTH maps, and the resupply would be far enough away that using it to gain health back wouldn't really work, but close enough that, the instant you gain the point, a team member or two can run to this resupply and switch to those other classes before any damage from the enemy team can be done. 2. Combating stalemating in stopwatch A/D would require some new feature to come into play. Or just better maps. A few features that might work: - Spawn times increase the more times you have died, on defense. - Last point is a bit further away from spawn than most last points (not as far as dustbowl stage 1, but somewhere in between). (?) - Every single A/D map so far has a super choked last point. I imagine if we took the 5cp maps and cut them in half and called it A/D, we might see the potential of the gamemode. In other words, less choked last points. As much as I hate reckoner, that last point was difficult enough to defend that I liked it.

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53179676]I wonder who at Valve not only knew how to play the bagpipes, but also play them extremely badly for the Bad Pipes taunt.[/QUOTE] I would assume that someone from the Valve Studio Orchestra that records the music for their games/updates/trailers was able to play the bagpipes.

Speaking of the next update I want the TF Team to incorporate FrontLine with the Heavy Update. It feels like it'd be very fitting for it.

[QUOTE=socks_;53180207]Is anyone else just really tense regarding the next update? Like, with Jungle Inferno, we at least had a contest and eventual announcement that there was going to be an update in the future, but now we just have nothing to go off of. At this point the next update could be [I]anything![/I] It could be you! It could be me! It could even be.... a really bad joke.[/QUOTE] I dont think theres going to be another update.

[QUOTE=socks_;53180207]Is anyone else just really tense regarding the next update? Like, with Jungle Inferno, we at least had a contest and eventual announcement that there was going to be an update in the future, but now we just have nothing to go off of. At this point the next update could be [I]anything![/I] It could be you! It could be me! It could even be.... a really bad joke.[/QUOTE] Not exactly. We know competitive still is in development and that they want the comp rework to be big and flashy, so It's not far to assume that it'll probably be this year's focus.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53180444]Not exactly. We know competitive still is in development and that they want the comp rework to be big and flashy, so It's not far to assume that it'll probably be this year's focus.[/QUOTE] They want the comp rework to be big and flashy? I was under the impression that Jill's comment meant "we beefed the 400 days on breaking pyro and it's nonexistent", not that it isn't polished enough. Hence why we got [I]no[/I] competitive changes rather than just the finished ones like casual did.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53178030]A dual pyro meta would rob 6s of the immense mechanical skill depth that comes along with running scout and replace it with M1 and rushdown gameplay. That's not terribly interesting.[/QUOTE] Alto's team is running that on his Open team. I don't know what their score is.

[QUOTE=LegendaryR'QA;53180467]Alto's team is running that on his Open team. I don't know what their score is.[/QUOTE] Heh, i only said it wasn't terribly interesting for that to be the meta, not that it wouldn't be [I]strong[/I] :v:. I'd imagine on the right maps the damage output would definitely be there.

[QUOTE=Jonii;53180226] (...)and watch..[/QUOTE] That's the main issues. It's NOT fun to watch. The way the rules are set up if a team is up 4-1 at 7 minutes you can be pretty sure that that match is over. And you basically get to watch to teams dick around for 5 minutes when it becomes ACTUALLY impossible to win. That's why i will always advocate A/D and PL. Not only are the other classes more viable on thous maps, but you also create more tense games. Bonus: OW and CS use what is essentially A/D and PL, so food for thought.

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53179502]I think at this point the entirety of the Facepunch forum is aware that current Pyro lacks skill and is annoying.[/QUOTE] as the current best fp pyro in terms of forum posting i guarantee you one of those two is a lie.

I'd rather have the WM1 monster we have right now than the awkard Critical Gimmick Pyro of pre-jungle inferno.

[QUOTE=LegendaryR'QA;53180491]That's the main issues. It's NOT fun to watch. The way the rules are set up if a team is up 4-1 at 7 minutes you can be pretty sure that that match is over. And you basically get to watch to teams dick around for 5 minutes when it becomes ACTUALLY impossible to win. That's why i will always advocate A/D and PL. Not only are the other classes more viable on thous maps, but you also create more tense games. Bonus: OW and CS use what is essentially A/D and PL, so food for thought.[/QUOTE] PL needs the cart to move twice as fast for 6s PL to not be boring

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53180503]PL needs the cart to move twice as fast for 6s PL to not be boring[/QUOTE] In 7s we've seen 3-4 minute Last Caps. There's little reason to believe 6s would be much different.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53180497]I'd rather have the WM1 monster we have right now than the awkard Critical Gimmick Pyro of pre-jungle inferno.[/QUOTE] It's still there. It's just everybody prefers being a braindead caveman and flailing their mouse around then abusing crit gimmicks.

Tyler posted a [URL="https://youtu.be/0KMUBnVsNdQ?t=2m26s"]new video[/URL] and it looks like he was able to find an exact quote from one of B4nny's Twitch streams from a Dave Riller email about where they plan on taking future class balance. [QUOTE]It would be great to have every class feel viable most of the time, rather than specialized, but there's so much variability in maps that it might not always be possible. One example is the Thermal Thruster now gives the Pyro more and better options on when it can engage or disengage, and increases their usefulness in a bunch of spaces they were really weak in before. Id like to see more design in that direction for other classes, but without risking homogenization"[/QUOTE] It's a very interesting quote, it seems like Valve plans on moving all the classes in a more generalist direction.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;53180623]Tyler posted a [URL="https://youtu.be/0KMUBnVsNdQ?t=2m26s"]new video[/URL] and it looks like he was able to find an exact quote from one of B4nny's Twitch streams from a Dave Riller email about where they plan on taking future class balance. It's a very interesting quote, it seems like Valve plans on moving all the classes in a more generalist direction.[/QUOTE] Also a minor balancing update confirmed.

Considering the balance disappointment that was the pyro this last update, I'm actually afraid of what they're going to do to spy or heavy.

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;53180658]Also a minor balancing update confirmed.[/QUOTE] Only 350 more days to go!

Story time with b4nny on yukon [video=youtube;qVl3Y7OUlp0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVl3Y7OUlp0[/video]

Well, it seems that the TF Team concurs with my stance on class balance. Here's to a world without the term "offclassing" in it.

[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53180684]Story time with b4nny on yukon [video=youtube;qVl3Y7OUlp0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVl3Y7OUlp0[/video][/QUOTE] Off-topic, but b4nny really needs to move the mic away from his mouth cause his mic keeps on popping.

[QUOTE=LegendaryR'QA;53180669]Only 350 more days to go![/QUOTE] This is what I'm afraid of. We REALLY do not need the next major update to be in October again. We really need the summer update to actually be in summer this year.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53180454]They want the comp rework to be big and flashy? I was under the impression that Jill's comment meant "we beefed the 400 days on breaking pyro and it's nonexistent", not that it isn't polished enough. Hence why we got [I]no[/I] competitive changes rather than just the finished ones like casual did.[/QUOTE] It wouldn’t surprise me if they hold back on the comp changes until they fix the hacker issues which they seem to be working on now with the removal of the idle farming bots and the recent sparkley cheat ban wave. Even if competitive was in a complete working state, new players are going to be repulsed by the game mode because of hackers whereas current tf2 players are willing to deal with it because they appreciate and understand the mechanics of the game itself more

[QUOTE=prizepool;53180913]It wouldn’t surprise me if they hold back on the comp changes until they fix the hacker issues which they seem to be working on now with the removal of the idle farming bots and the recent sparkley cheat ban wave. Even if competitive was in a complete working state, new players are going to be repulsed by the game mode because of hackers whereas current tf2 players are willing to deal with it because they appreciate and understand the mechanics of the game itself more[/QUOTE] not only would this be stupid as hell anyway since cheaters are going to reach top ranks in like a week and become mostly irrelevant for most players, but valve haven't even managed to fix the amount of players hacking in csgo which they care far more about the competitive integrity of, so I think the chances in tf2 are slim to none. It's pretty much impossible to ever catch up to the people writing the hacks anyway. it would be a massive shock to me if the changes made the system even half as good as csgos before 2020

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53180726]Well, it seems that the TF Team concurs with my stance on class balance. Here's to a world without the term "offclassing" in it.[/QUOTE] I don’t want to burst your bubble but I doubt that’s even possible. For instance I don’t think it’s possible for spy, sniper and engineer’s will ever allow them to be run like a generalist with how they’re designed.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53181077]I don’t want to burst your bubble but I doubt that’s even possible. For instance I don’t think it’s possible for spy, sniper and engineer’s will ever allow them to be run like a generalist ever with how they’re designed.[/QUOTE] Map choice is a big issue there. Though I think the speed pad alone would make Engineer at least partially viable on 5cp, if it was powerful enough.

[QUOTE]It would be great to have every class feel viable most of the time, rather than specialized, but there's so much variability in maps that it might not always be possible. One example is the Thermal Thruster now gives the Pyro more and better options on when it can engage or disengage, and increases their usefulness in a bunch of spaces they were really weak in before. Id like to see more design in that direction for other classes, but without risking homogenization"[/QUOTE] Would be nice to see this in a blog post, rather than from a youtube channel who reported it from a stream. Heavy probably won't get a new mobility weapon, curious just what he will get, maybe a Pudge/Roadhog hook in one hand and a shotgun in the other?

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53181077]I don’t want to burst your bubble but I doubt that’s even possible. For instance I don’t think it’s possible for spy, sniper and engineer’s will ever allow them to be run like a generalist with how they’re designed.[/QUOTE] Well DRiller does say in the email that he wants classes to feel viable most of the time not all of the time. There will certainly be times when the specialists aren't going to be viable but I do think moving towards making all of the classes viable most of the time in comp vs most of the classes barely ever being viable is the right way to go if Valve wants comp to be a success with people who aren't into comp.

v1 enforcer made spy into a generalist. it wasn't healthy.

[QUOTE=prizepool;53180913]It wouldn’t surprise me if they hold back on the comp changes until they fix the hacker issues which they seem to be working on now with the removal of the idle farming bots and the recent sparkley cheat ban wave. Even if competitive was in a complete working state, new players are going to be repulsed by the game mode because of hackers whereas current tf2 players are willing to deal with it because they appreciate and understand the mechanics of the game itself more[/QUOTE] Valve has never taken cheating seriously in their existence as a game company, and I'm fairly certain it will fall on us, the community groups to do so into the future. This is why MM traffic into [I]proper[/I] community servers would help. We can actually say "no, you're banned by SMAC/punkbuster/Sourcebans and all of your alts we found and on the same IP too- you don't get to cheat freely until valve stops sleeping." This is the problem with VAC. It's an antiquated system that allows people to cheat for entirely too long, and by the time it acts, the damage is already done in-game.