TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53192803]Why would buffing a sub-class of an already too-strong class be at all a good solution? How is it going to positively affect anybody not playing Sniper?[/QUOTE] because then exor can switch to it, shoot the snipers until they leave and go back to heavy

I wonder how the game would be if Engie didn't have the building status HUD and Spy could disguise as buildings like that scrapped crouch to disguise as a dispenser idea.

I have been enlightened to the power of detonator jumping. I must now ruin every pub.

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53193122]I wonder how the game would be if Engie didn't have the building status HUD and Spy could disguise as buildings like that scrapped crouch to disguise as a dispenser idea.[/QUOTE] Completely unnecessary Spy buffs. Engie is already an incredibly weak class, buffs that nerf other weak classes are inherently bad buffs.

It's just that I can't think of any other way to make Spy more useful, because I'd imagine Spy buffs would come sooner than Sniper nerfs. They could make disguises better by removing collision, but that could be buggy and change something that's been the same for 10 years. Basically imo Sniper should be weaker to Spy, maybe with another counter in jetpack Pyro as a sort of harasser like OW's Winston. Also does it make any difference if you hold down right click when detonator jumping?

Engineer isn't weak.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53193178]Engineer isn't weak.[/QUOTE] In actual non-braindead gameplay? Yes he is. Focused fire from one Demo/Soldier and one of any other class will destroy a Sentry before the Engineer can even whack it.

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53193181]In actual non-braindead gameplay? Yes he is. Focused fire from one Demo/Soldier and one of any other class will destroy a Sentry before the Engineer can even whack it.[/QUOTE] No clue why you're building your sentry in front of them rather than already having it prepared. Unless you're playing some weird offense engineer, in which he's still insanely powerful at moving and fortifying the the backline in modes like attack defense or 5cp.

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53193181]In actual non-braindead gameplay? Yes he is. Focused fire from one Demo/Soldier and one of any other class will destroy a Sentry before the Engineer can even whack it.[/QUOTE] Yeah an engie can be super powerful in a disorganized pub but fairly weak in higher level/comp play. I have no idea how you balance that. It must be a nightmare for Valve.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53192824]because then exor can switch to it, shoot the snipers until they leave and go back to heavy[/QUOTE] And everyone profits. [QUOTE=Punchy;53192769]Yes let's arbitrarily lower the skill ceiling of a difficult to master class with weapon sets that provide no visual indication of their bonus effects because "dang i got headshot"[/QUOTE]Who cares how much "skill" it takes? Do you genuinely enjoy playing against a long-range instant kill class in a close-quarters shooter where said class's only true limitation is human error? I'm open to more rational ideas on how to fix the Sniper conundrum if you care to share them--ideas other than say, "lol Sniper is fine I liek my tacticool quickscoepz."

[QUOTE=Oizen;53193178]Engineer isn't weak.[/QUOTE] 216 hp isn't that much to deal with especially when so many attacks can pierce the sentry. besides if you do well as engi there'll be 100% chance to summon some rager that goes Direct Hit

Just give every single class except sniper a secondary similar to the razorback in that it blocks one headshot and recharges in 30 seconds. Why yes, this design is stupid. But as long as the Razorback as a concept even exists I see no reason why this shouldn't exist.

What if Engie buildings blocked explosion damage like map geometry? Also if you have a bit of time open a listen server, turn up the volume, and launch with the Thermal Thruster. It sounds so good and I commend Valve's sound team. edit: explosion blocking could make pub turtling too powerful, TF2 is weird, the core game is so good and fun but 1/3 of the classes (Sniper, Engie, and Spy) are either too strong or too weak in skilled play with it being pretty much unfixable without a total rework.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53193218]Just give every single class except sniper a secondary similar to the razorback in that it blocks one headshot and recharges in 30 seconds. Why yes, this design is stupid. But as long as the Razorback as a concept even exists I see no reason why this shouldn't exist.[/QUOTE] prior to adding this: entering a sniper's sightline is certain death after adding this: entering a sniper's sightline for more than 2 seconds is certain death

[QUOTE=Oizen;53193185]No clue why you're building your sentry in front of them rather than already having it prepared. Unless you're playing some weird offense engineer, in which he's still insanely powerful at moving and fortifying the the backline in modes like attack defense or 5cp.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but you thinking offense engineer is viable in any way other than "as a way to get your teammates irrationally angry" says all I need to know about what level of play you participate in, and it's not the level where I'd actually argue with you about gameplay balance and gain anything from it.

[QUOTE=Drury;53193258]prior to adding this: entering a sniper's sightline is certain death after adding this: entering a sniper's sightline for more than 2 seconds is certain death[/QUOTE] That's plenty of time to deal 125 hp in a lot of situations

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;53193187]Yeah an engie can be super powerful in a disorganized pub but fairly weak in higher level/comp play. I have no idea how you balance that. It must be a nightmare for Valve.[/QUOTE] The current design is impossible to balance properly because it's lacking in skill indexing. Playing as, and fighting against Engineer is like following a flow chart in the majority of situations.

[t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/928177532163358703/DF783ABD2107730511913295CD0D8CFC94CA5EAA/[/t] [URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1325506025"]Finally, a pocket cosmetic that I can throw all of my support behind[/URL]

[QUOTE=Cupkek;53193358][t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/928177532163358703/DF783ABD2107730511913295CD0D8CFC94CA5EAA/[/t] [URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1325506025"]Finally, a pocket cosmetic that I can throw all of my support behind[/URL][/QUOTE] ... [QUOTE]"In loving memory of kitty0706, a man as fabulous as the videos he made. Oookh - Concept WingDing - Literally everything else All revenue made by kitty0706 items are for charity, none of the money is to be sent to me, WingDing, or any concept creators listed (For Valve: The revenue share as stated below is NOT the 'true' revenue share. All revenue must go to a charity which combats cancer, since that is what Colin 'kitty0706' Wyckoff suffered and eventually died from.) More kitty0706-related charity items coming soon!"[/QUOTE] It's a bit late to run a charity for Kitty0706 isn't it... He's been long dead for years now, I believe back in 2015...

Yeah, Kitty passing is sad, but putting shitty pocket buddy cosmetics of his OC on the workshop 3 years after the fact screams "I want an item in the game".

tbh I'd rather the proceeds go to his family, or a split between his family and charity I feel like if anyone deserves the profits from the sale of something like this, it's the family who lost him

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53192670]Bodyshot Sydney Sleeper Snipers are hardly anywhere near as annoying as the real deal.[/QUOTE] Speaking of Sydney sleeper, I actually bought a pro ks version of it recently.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193201] Who cares how much "skill" it takes? Do you genuinely enjoy playing against a long-range instant kill class in a close-quarters shooter where said class's only true limitation is human error? I'm open to more rational ideas on how to fix the Sniper conundrum if you care to share them--ideas other than say, "lol Sniper is fine I liek my tacticool quickscoepz."[/QUOTE] I care. Most people care that skill be maintained. If people didn't, the BFB, the loch, the old gunslinger, list goes on, would all still be in overpowered states where there was objectively no downside to using them. No, nobody enjoys dealing with a sniper. But he is, in his current state, [B]fair[/B]. Fair to kill, and fair to be killed by. If you die to a sniper, it's your job to [I]adapt[/I] to that scenario. reimplementing a shutdown to this is not adapting. It's circumventing. And this is a terrible balancing mindset because it boils all fights down to who has the better loadout, and not who deserves to win the fight. Dieing to snipers too much in pubs? Talk to your team and get a medic. Nobody wants to medic? run fists of steel and stay on the flank. Still need to deal with the sniper? Get good at actually aiming a headshot with your rifle.

[QUOTE=Punchy;53193432]But he is, in his current state, [B]fair[/B]. Fair to kill, and fair to be killed by. If you die to a sniper, it's your job to [I]adapt[/I] to that scenario. [/QUOTE] This is the part I ideologically disagree with. Often the only thing you can do to "adapt" is "hope he misses a body shot on your medic" which often sums up the class, and is immensely unfun. Perhaps in casual, where the risk of being overrun by sheer player numbers and no class limits means that sniper's power gets checked somewhat, but that still doesn't solve the problem of his limitlessly rewarding skill ceiling in a game where literally [I]everything else[/I] is based around midrange combat. The reason people find sniper unfun is because there is little to no reasonable counterplay for him beyond map elements (flanks, cover etc.) and team coordination (ubers, focus fire, etc.) But those are basically everything-counters, and irrelevant for this subject anyway. Other class-based games solve the annoyance of taking an unavoidable instant burst of damage from an enemy you can't see or fight right at the moment, with counterplay tools or weapons: Flash bangs, smoke screens, hell even large bullet shields and artillery support are among the countless things that make having an unassailable, long-distance player character bearable, and fun to have in the game. Don't nerf sniper; give the other classes tools to make taking an easy 150 to the spleen from anywhere on the map not as lame as it currently is, because compared to that big skill ceiling everybody talks about, a chimp could figure that out with enough practice. Do remember that the only thing stopping sniper from being even more of a headache than he already is, is the large twitch aim requirement. But that's one specific skill that can be ground out with enough time, and the benefits enjoyed with little other participation in TF2 besides the head-shooting mini game that is the sniper class.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53193567]Other class-based games solve the annoyance of taking an unavoidable instant burst of damage from an enemy you can't see or fight right at the moment, with counterplay tools or weapons: Flash bangs, smoke screens, hell even large bullet shields and artillery support are among the countless things that make having an unassailable, long-distance player character bearable, and fun to have in the game.[/QUOTE] snipers in tf2 are nerfed compared to other games, where one-shot bodyshot kills are common with snipers additionally, while tf2 may not have the things you just listed, it does have: invisibility cloaks disguises rocket jumping sticky jumping double jumping jetpacks... generally-speaking, it has a lot of high-skill, high-mobility classes that other games lack. sure, I can't blind a sniper with a smoke grenade in TF2...but I also can't rocket jump at him at fucking mach 2 in CSGO, either.

Of all things to fix sniper is beyond last

honestly all that needs to be done to sniper is to add a half second or long delay when he scopes up before he can critically headshot

[QUOTE=rolfum;53193619]honestly all that needs to be done to sniper is to add a half second or long delay when he scopes up before he can critically headshot[/QUOTE] This will encourage snipers to always stay behind teammates without going for aggressive quickscopes at all which will make him even more annoying and boring. Don't fix what's not broken.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53187366][video=youtube;yPk1VjGbSYU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPk1VjGbSYU[/video][/QUOTE] Due to the amount of people who worked on this video, this year will probably be the one where the most people are awarded a saxxy trophy.

Watching people play this """"competetive"""" Overwatch makes me think comp TF2 would stomp the shit out of that if Valve actually gave a dick about this game. Do we know if they're reworking ranked matchmaking for sure? Is the current system even using something similar to ELO?