TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Davoc;53193683]Watching people play this """"competetive"""" Overwatch makes me think comp TF2 would stomp the shit out of that if Valve actually gace a dick about this game. Do we know if they're reworking ranked matchmaking for sure? Is the current system even using something similar to ELO?[/QUOTE] Following things are confirmed: - Yes, they are reworking Matchmaking. - Yes, ELO is confirmed. - Yes, Placements are confirmed. Following things are not confirmed: - A release this year Following things I am hoping for: - A release this summer Current MM is essentially just a rank grind - aka awful. Win, get progress to a higher rank, lose, lose progress. Current MM is a joke and essentially worse Casual.

[QUOTE=Punchy;53193432] Dieing to snipers too much in pubs? Talk to your team and get a medic. Nobody wants to medic? run fists of steel and stay on the flank. Still need to deal with the sniper? Get good at actually aiming a headshot with your rifle.[/QUOTE] So your argument essentially boils down to, "Get good and learn to counter Sniper with Sniper's counter class, the Sniper." Grade A balance right there, and it's no different from reintroducing the Croc-o-Style set, only I have to bother "learning" how to play a thoroughly joyless class to negate a thoroughly joyless class. A Sniper does not "deserve" to win a fight because he stared at someone from five miles away while babysitting a sightline--in fact, that's not even a fight. I think your definition of "fight" may be a tad skewed.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193816]So your argument essentially boils down to, "Get good and learn to counter Sniper with Sniper's counter class, the Sniper." Grade A balance right there.[/QUOTE] Better than restoring system that was removed because it wasn't fair and almost nobody liked it

I'm not sure a set that handicaps so-called "good" Snipers is unfair, given the lack of headshot ability. And Contra, none of your suggestions actually counter Sniper and rely on unpredictable human error on the part of the Sniper to exploit--we had this conversation last night, a good Sniper can easily shut down jumpers. What is it with people and their love affair with Sniper? What do you guys find so delightful about the class? Playing him is tantamount to dropping a nuke on hapless victims from relative safety; the converse is dying as a hapless victim to a guy dropping a nuke from relative safety. There's no thrill of engagement or exciting battle to be had, just instant death or a whiffed shot. If you want a point-and-click minigame, there are plenty of those to be had on the app store.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/kYcAMHs.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193821]I'm not sure a set that handicaps so-called "good" Snipers is unfair, given the lack of headshot ability. And Contra, none of your suggestions actually counter Sniper and rely on unpredictable human error on the part of the Sniper to exploit--we had this conversation last night, a good Sniper can easily shut down jumpers.[/QUOTE] Sets were generally not fair since there is no visual indication if person you fighting against has full set and gets the bonus, in addition to that you should be outplayed by the way people use items, not how they put them in slots. Also it makes no sense as a sniper being punished for good aim just because somebody slapped some items in slots.

Just do what I do and use the sticky jumper to jump over to snipers and melee them to death.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53193835][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/kYcAMHs.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Brilliant, let's encourage the employment of an equally miserable mechanic! [QUOTE=kos8bit;53193836]Sets were generally not fair since there is no visual indication if person you fighting against has full set and gets the bonus, in addition to that you should be outplayed by the way people use items, not how they put them in slots. Also it makes no sense as a sniper being punished for good aim just because somebody slapped some items in slots.[/QUOTE] The Croc-o-Style set was rather readily identifiable, and while I'm inclined to agree with you that this method of dealing with the problem of Sniper is unwieldy and philosophically flawed, it did "work" in a way. As I said before, I'm open to more rational suggestions. Sniper is one of the most polarizing and divisive classes in the game, only for some reason this particular community appears to have a strange affinity for the craven wannabe Australian.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193841]Brilliant, let's encourage the employment of an equally miserable mechanic![/QUOTE] Classes and weapons are made to counter each other, if you refuse to adapt to the situation or problem at hand because you find everything unfun or refuse to play a different class/a different way it's entirely your issue.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53193776]Following things are confirmed: - Yes, they are reworking Matchmaking. - Yes, ELO is confirmed. - Yes, Placements are confirmed. Following things are not confirmed: - A release this year Following things I am hoping for: - A release this summer Current MM is essentially just a rank grind - aka awful. Win, get progress to a higher rank, lose, lose progress. Current MM is a joke and essentially worse Casual.[/QUOTE] That's great news, I hope it comes out soon. [sp]I can't wait to play nothing but sniper and see where I place on the rank system[/sp]

The Vaccinator is currently banned in competitive, and although this is entirely anecdotal, I hear people complain about it incessantly. I don't think stacking 75% resistances to several damage types and coupling that with overheal is particularly gratifying and only causes further stalemating. And who said anything about [I]everything[/I] being unfun, or that I'm incapable of adapting to situations? Now we're entering hyperbolic straw man territory. Sheesh, dishing out low blows over a cowardly camper.

Should JI Pyro mechanics stay the way they are? The idea behind it is this: Heavy is problematic; Heavy is annoying; Heavy is not fun to play with because who enjoys getting killed in seconds from someone holding the crosshair over your body? Valve is never going to outright remove Heavy from the game, so what is the next best solution? The Jungle Inferno Pyro changes set provided Heavy lifers with an irritant in the form of new flame mechanics that empowered poor Pyros to counter them with minimal effort and cheesy mechanics. The effect of this over time would be less Heavy mains, since why would people desire to main Heavy if all it takes to kill them is a bad Pyro? There's less incentive to improve and remain attached to the class. So what does this cause? Less Heavy mains = more fun for everyone else. [sp](just making a joke, I play Heavy a fair amount)[/sp]

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193816]A Sniper does not "deserve" to win a fight because he stared at someone from five miles away while babysitting a sightline--in fact, that's not even a fight. I think your definition of "fight" may be a tad skewed.[/QUOTE] err if we're gonna go with "deservings" then literally only stock scout <deserves> his kills because everyone else has factors that make their battles way easier than just having to aim

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53193894]Should JI Pyro mechanics stay the way they are? The idea behind it is this: Heavy is problematic; Heavy is annoying; Heavy is not fun to play with because who enjoys getting killed in seconds from someone holding the crosshair over your body? Valve is never going to outright remove Heavy from the game, so what is the next best solution? The Jungle Inferno Pyro changes set provided Heavy lifers with an irritant in the form of new flame mechanics that empowered poor Pyros to counter them with minimal effort and cheesy mechanics. The effect of this over time would be less Heavy mains, since why would people desire to main Heavy if all it takes to kill them is a bad Pyro? There's less incentive to improve and remain attached to the class. So what does this cause? Less Heavy mains = more fun for everyone else. [sp](just making a joke, I play Heavy a fair amount)[/sp][/QUOTE] That would be funny if it weren't false equivalence. Heavy is a [I]very[/I] predictable, loud, and mostly stationary target that fights players at close quarters--where every other class has a degree of specialization. Heavy has a cornucopia of guaranteed counter plays, while Sniper does not.

Maybe Pyro was meant to make sniping harder with those new opaque flame particles :v:

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193841]Brilliant, let's encourage the employment of an equally miserable mechanic![/QUOTE] That's precisely the type of rhetoric you opened this discussion with. You have no real footing for being a hypocrite so people are rightfully taking the piss. Every time this subject comes up it goes literally nowhere and you aren't doing anything to drive it anywhere because it sits and stays in the exact same spot of "nerf sniper because I don't like sniper" position instead of actually going places. Sniper is always a touchy topic and even our best efforts to propose skillful interactivity for players who've spotted him without breaking the mechanics of his gun are ignored or otherwise forgotten. Devolving back to [i]baby's first SPUF complaint thread[/i] doesn't make progress -- especially when all you do is complain about him at a conceptual level and offer literally nothing to foster actual discussion.

I suppose that's true. However, I've learned over time not to posit too many [I]intelligent[/I] mechanical suggestions to problems that have no clear answer. Complications such as the Sandman or Crit-a-Cola are relatively simple to identify and fix, hence why I've been reasonably upset that Valve took so long to address them. Issues like Sniper, Pyro, and Heavy are more nuanced and complex in both the scope of the flaws and in their potential solutions, and anything anyone suggests is going to be controversial to someone. I just hope Valve knows what they're doing.

My main problem with Sniper isn't the fact he's the most lethal when it comes to reliable damage output from a distance, but the fact at how quick he can churn out headshots. As said before I think the best way to at least make fighting a god-tier sniper bearable is to increase the amount of time it takes to critically headshot upon scoping in. Not to say that quick-scoping isn't skilful at all, it is. But pumping out 150 damage 0.25 of a second after scoping in is insanely quick.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193816]it's no different from reintroducing the Croc-o-Style set, only I have to bother "learning" how to play a thoroughly joyless class to negate a thoroughly joyless class. [/QUOTE] What a travesty you have to get good at the game to beat someone who is good at the game.

[QUOTE=Punchy;53194366]What a travesty you have to get good at the game to beat someone who is good at the game.[/QUOTE] Surely you can see how requiring someone to ditto another player with a single class/character in order to establish a truly even playing field is problematic design.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53193597]snipers in tf2 are nerfed compared to other games, where one-shot bodyshot kills are common with snipers additionally, while tf2 may not have the things you just listed, it does have: invisibility cloaks disguises rocket jumping sticky jumping double jumping jetpacks... generally-speaking, it has a lot of high-skill, high-mobility classes that other games lack. sure, I can't blind a sniper with a smoke grenade in TF2...but I also can't rocket jump at him at fucking mach 2 in CSGO, either.[/QUOTE] Let's break down some of those counters, shall we? Invisibility cloaks- The one true counter to sniper besides himself, this lets you actually get at him where he's weak... Assuming you don't get called, quick scoped, jarated, spy checked, fought with the SMG, or he's sitting in an unstabbable position in spawn. And you're still running spy, too, depriving your class of DPS, presence, etc. Oh, yeah, and he's probably playing combo sniper since thats a thing or sitting by the level 3 sentry, so you're going to die anyway for the pick, assuming you get it. Have fun! Disguises- Useless against good players. Unlimited range spy checking with body shots, jarate, and the fact that the nerfbassador doesn't help as much any more means your anti-sniper mission gets harder for no reason. Rocket jumping- A counter, sure, but not a very good one. Air strafing let's you be unpredictable somewhat but to have to fly past the entire enemy team, avoid having your movement thrown off by an unskilled body shot, and then hoping you aren't called out and have the sniper cowardly flee making it all for naught- that is a ridiculous risk you have to exposed yourself to just for some meager counterplay against the sniper. That isn't balanced. Stcky jumping- Demo bombs are even riskier than soldier ones due to the amount of health usually needed to be traded to reach [I]all the way[/I] behind enemy lines to where a sniper is often camped. Double jumping- Useful, but defeatable. The scout has to not only make it through the entire enemy team, past sentries and a instant 125 body shot that even his movement is no match for speed wise. A skilled sniper will again make this irrelevant. Go play scout against fallen or bo4r and witness what an undue risk it is. Jetpacks- Loudly announced, slow to holster, and low air control in a predictable jump arc. I don't main sniper, but even I can predictably wipe out jetpack pyros before they reach the ground. Assuming again, my team doesn't. So again. Something as reliably damaging as sniper needs an equally reliable counterplay. "Hope he misses" (relying largely on human error to check the class's power) is not good design. Widowmaker and ana don't have this problem, because counters. The designated AWP player in CSGO can potentially negate thier downsides with enough skill, barring the reload speed but again, there are counterplay elements to prevent sniping from dominating play that aren't just a lack of skill. And that's not even a class shooter.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53194394]Surely you can see how requiring someone to ditto another player with a single class/character in order to establish a truly even playing field is problematic design.[/QUOTE] but that happens literally with anyone else. lay the smack on a server with engi/heavy and terrible players swarm to spy kill shit with pyro, see them all go heavy/soldier to "teech u a lesson" be good scout -> minis everywhere good medic -> spy / sniper / scout / divers good demo -> good players will go to scout do great as spy -> well this one is obvious

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53193821]I'm not sure a set that handicaps so-called "good" Snipers is unfair, given the lack of headshot ability. And Contra, none of your suggestions actually counter Sniper and rely on unpredictable human error on the part of the Sniper to exploit--we had this conversation last night, a good Sniper can easily shut down jumpers. What is it with people and their love affair with Sniper? What do you guys find so delightful about the class? Playing him is tantamount to dropping a nuke on hapless victims from relative safety; the converse is dying as a hapless victim to a guy dropping a nuke from relative safety. There's no thrill of engagement or exciting battle to be had, just instant death or a whiffed shot. If you want a point-and-click minigame, there are plenty of those to be had on the app store.[/QUOTE] I've played with and against some of the best Snipers in the game. They still miss shots, they still get bombed by Soldiers and flanked by Spies and Scouts. Human error is guaranteed for all human players- literal aimbots are the only thing that remove it entirely. At the highest levels of play, Sniper is still not the unstoppable God you think he is. He's the most powerful class in Highlander but still dies to non-Sniper plays. In 6s, he's an offclass- not because he's too slow, but because he's unreliable. Because it's almost always better to have a Generalist instead. You can't make balance arguments while pretending factors like human error don't exist, or that Sniper players have this godly, all-encompassing sense of awareness and accuracy. Following this same logic, players should be noticing the Sniper before he headshots them, since we all apparently have godlike reflexes. Additionally, as long as classes like Engineer, Spy, Medic and even Heavy exists...there are going to be a countless number of encounters in this game that do not qualify as "fights" and are not a part of this 1v1 simulator you've built up in your head.

also for every pointblank headshot that happens, hundreds of snipers get helplessly slaughtered with zero chance to fight back. cherry picked montage isn't what actually happens

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53194434]but that happens literally with anyone else. lay the smack on a server with engi/heavy and terrible players swarm to spy kill shit with pyro, see them all go heavy/soldier to "teech u a lesson" be good scout -> minis everywhere good medic -> spy / sniper / scout / divers good demo -> good players will go to scout do great as spy -> well this one is obvious[/QUOTE] The difference is that, when fighting all the other classes, you have a chance with most of the classes because the effective range of each class is close together. When fighting Sniper, you have to be Sniper as well, because all the other classes have to abandon good positioning to fight him.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53194462]The difference is that, when fighting all the other classes, you have a chance with most of the classes because the effective range of each class is close together. When fighting Sniper, you have to be Sniper as well, because all the other classes have to abandon good positioning to fight him.[/QUOTE] if the map isn't trash then there will be alternate routes and decent cover divebombing soldier is the biggest sniper counter after maybe scout and his own self

One of the best counters to sniper is map design, and precious few official maps get sight lines right. Also, I've made the big time, again: [t]https://i.imgur.com/rDU3TpK.png[/t] [url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198346236047[/url] FWIW, that's totally me and you should send me all the legit trade offers you have. I'll totally give you a good deal.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53194394]Surely you can see how requiring someone to ditto another player with a single class/character in order to establish a truly even playing field is problematic design.[/QUOTE] that's not problematic design. TF2 was NEVER designed with the intention of promoting class singularity. You have always been best off changing classes based off what the situation calls for. Can't do that yourself? pubs are made so that at least one person on your team should be capable of doing it (ignoring a lack of mmr, high team numbers make up). I repeat. Get good or get over it. Do not bring back abhorrent class sets, they are cheap and have no place in the game's balance. Do not play the game a way the developer's never intended (only picking one class every match), and then complain when you get steamrolled. Your inability to adapt is a reflection of your own skill, not a flaw in balance.

[QUOTE=Punchy;53194593]Your inability to adapt[/QUOTE] isn't sticking to 1 class actually an ability to adapt in itself, as in you force yourself to make the best out of any situation even when you are at a disadvantage? Thinking of creative ways to overcome your weaknesses where your class isn't meant to be is what I find way more ressourceful than running to spawn and going the easy way out.

To be fair there [I]is[/I] a design issue with making a class primarily be countered by itself. If you're getting wrecked by a spy, you go pyro, because going pyro will give you an [I]advantage[/I] over the spy. If you're getting wrecked by a demo, you go scout, because going scout will give you an [I]advantage[/I] over the spy. If you're getting wrecked by a sniper, you go sniper, and then you're only on an equal playing field to the sniper. Yeah the element of surprise by switching might give you a cheeky kill but after that it's just an even playing field situation, not really a counter at all. I think making the counterplay more consistent with how the rest of the classes work wouldn't go amiss here.