TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53194434]but that happens literally with anyone else. lay the smack on a server with engi/heavy and terrible players swarm to spy kill shit with pyro, see them all go heavy/soldier to "teech u a lesson" be good scout -> minis everywhere good medic -> spy / sniper / scout / divers good demo -> good players will go to scout do great as spy -> well this one is obvious[/QUOTE] What you're describing is countering a class with another class, not countering a class by playing the same class because that's the only counterplay available.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53194610]isn't sticking to 1 class actually an ability to adapt in itself, as in you force yourself to make the best out of any situation even when you are at a disadvantage? Thinking of creative ways to overcome your weaknesses where your class isn't meant to be is what I find way more ressourceful than running to spawn and going the easy way out.[/QUOTE] Playing heavy when the other team has 4 good snipers is an exercise in your inability to accept that a single person can't win a 4v1. Sure it [i]can[/i] work, but that depends almost entirely on the game mode itself being in your favor (ie on defense and not needing to enter their line of sight anyway) or you having teammates do cleanup so you can actually get something done (which means you're dead weight otherwise). No one cares about someone proving themselves with futility. Get results or get killed.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53194624]What you're describing is countering a class with another class, not countering a class by playing the same class because that's the only counterplay available.[/QUOTE] didn't we just spend the last page saying all the power classes + spy counter sniper tho if the sniper is protected by all of his teammates well then tough luck, it's team fortress

[QUOTE=Punchy;53194593]that's not problematic design. TF2 was NEVER designed with the intention of promoting class singularity. You have always been best off changing classes based off what the situation calls for. Can't do that yourself? pubs are made so that at least one person on your team should be capable of doing it (ignoring a lack of mmr, high team numbers make up). I repeat. Get good or get over it. Do not bring back abhorrent class sets, they are cheap and have no place in the game's balance. Do not play the game a way the developer's never intended (only picking one class every match), and then complain when you get steamrolled. Your inability to adapt is a reflection of your own skill, not a flaw in balance.[/QUOTE] Well, since you're impugning my level of skill rather than purely addressing the points made as they stand, I'm sure you'll allow me the license to likewise impugn your debating skills for invoking such fallacies. You're also misconstruing my point, but perhaps that's my fault for not articulating it well enough. The resurrection of Croc-o-Style is a half-joke, obviously it in itself came with troubling baggage and was dealt with for a reason. I'm not advocating the exclusive play of one class--quite the opposite really. My true point is that Sniper's most reliable counter should [I]not be[/I] another Sniper, and a class whose limitations are a result of human error rather than in-game checks and balances is poor design. Your attack on my character is not appreciated, unnecessary, and poor form. I did not come here out of knee-jerk frustration over dying to a Sniper in a pub because I'm incapable of adapting or executing strategies to avoid or assault him. Anti-Sniper strategies such as jerky unpredictable movement, intermittent crouches, and assailing the Sniper's position with mobile classes are not always reliable. A Sniper with even 70% accuracy will be able to shut down bombers and kill Scouts if he's prepared and entrenched within relative safety. No one here is saying that Sniper is godlike and unbeatable, just that he's broken conceptually, like many other things in this game.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53194647]A Sniper with even 70% accuracy will be able to shut down bombers and kill Scouts if he's prepared and entrenched within relative safety.[/QUOTE] When you use percentages please specify numbers that percentage comes from. How do you even measure player's accuracy in percentage, though? Anyway, i disagree, since people playing TF2 competitively at highest tiers, despite pretty much having highest mechanical skills (and for sure having at least 70% accuracy, whatever that means), as a sniper entrenched on last and prepared for roamer sacs still aren't able to shut down bombers consistently.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53194610]isn't sticking to 1 class actually an ability to adapt in itself, as in you force yourself to make the best out of any situation even when you are at a disadvantage? Thinking of creative ways to overcome your weaknesses where your class isn't meant to be is what I find way more ressourceful than running to spawn and going the easy way out.[/QUOTE] You can adapt to playing on a single class but that is not in itself improving your ability to adapt to your environment. The skills are non-transferable.

What would happen if Snipers lost charge if they received damage, maybe going faster if it's a constant stream of damage? Could possible make them search for more cover, which I would find a good thing. Heavy's focus minigun fire could counter the Sniper. I would also like something to be done with Pyro's flare guns. Having essentially infinite range for a short range class just doesn't stick with me. Now here's a observation, I'm in no hell suggesting this to happen, but how would the community react (or rage): If Valve gave Sniper 75 hp?

[QUOTE=kos8bit;53194692]When you use percentages please specify numbers that percentage comes from. How do you even measure player's accuracy in percentage, though? Anyway, i disagree, since people playing TF2 competitively at highest tiers, despite pretty much having highest mechanical skills (and for sure having at least 70% accuracy, whatever that means), as a sniper entrenched on last and prepared for roamer sacs still aren't able to shut down bombers consistently.[/QUOTE] well the problem with that argument is that you're using actual human players here we only talk about sniper as a concept where there is no counterplay as you simply die immediately regardless, human error does not exist and actual gameplay doesn't matter

[QUOTE=Mould;53194835]well the problem with that argument is that you're using actual human players here we only talk about sniper as a concept where there is no counterplay as you simply die immediately regardless, human error does not exist and actual gameplay doesn't matter[/QUOTE] Has it occurred to you that this entire conversation about sniper refers to sniper with that human error and other factors implied? Yes. You can miss, have scorch shots spammed, soldiers bomb and all manner of other nonsense going on, yet still encounter the problems mentioned because of the core design problems with sniper, who's basically a twitch aim minigame in a class shooter that's otherwise completely designed around midrange movement-based combat. Actual gameplay shows us that cowering in spawn and bodyshotting the crap out of players who would otherwise out DM you, instead of actually playing the game is craven and bad design. Actual gameplay shows us that even at the top levels, sniper dominates to the point of unlock bans, and in small sided games is only not run because of his one real downside, slow speed. So no. We've covered that part.

Gah, only one wave left to complete titanium tank... Downtown Wave 7... and it crashes right on the last wave for me. Hard enough to get people to play it, but I need to hope I can make it to play through each wave to get to 7 again unless I get lucky. It's also the only one that seems to crash on me for the most part too.

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;53194771]I would also like something to be done with Pyro's flare guns. Having essentially infinite range for a short range class just doesn't stick with me.[/QUOTE] The Scorch Shot seems too easily spammable for cheap hits at longer range, but the flare gun and my precious detonator require enough skill that I think they're fine as they are tbh. I like the sniper's charge idea as well, makes chipping at them more worthwhile than just quickly nudging their aim, and without outright interfering with their playstyle.

156 players are playing the Operation Titanium Tank Tour. [t]https://i.imgur.com/gh7abiW.png[/t] It might have to do with the YouTuber advertisement, and that it's a free-to-play Tour that awards a medal on completition, but the fact that there's so many people playing Community Mann vs. Machine with no gimmicks in-between (like infinite money or 10vM) is insane, and players are demanding even more servers to play in. It might help that it's the first of its kind, being a community tour that does also award a medal. Granted, compared to [URL="https://teamwork.tf/community/statistics/valve"]Valve MvM[/URL], this is only a 1/6.5~ ratio, and doesn't mean that it's that popular compared to, say, Two Cities, but it shows that there's a thrist for more MvM content, even though it's optimistic to think that more MvM content will come from the TF2 team themselves. Hopefully there will be more community MvM contests and tours, they're incredibly fun to take part of and it makes the wait between TF2 updates more bearable.

Do you think they should implement the unused pixel rocket trail for the Original?

[QUOTE=JugadorXEI;53195049]156 players are playing the Operation Titanium Tank Tour. [t]https://i.imgur.com/gh7abiW.png[/t] It might have to do with the YouTuber advertisement, and that it's a free-to-play Tour that awards a medal on completition, but the fact that there's so many people playing Community Mann vs. Machine with no gimmicks in-between (like infinite money or 10vM) is insane, and players are demanding even more servers to play in. It might help that it's the first of its kind, being a community tour that does also award a medal. Granted, compared to [URL="https://teamwork.tf/community/statistics/valve"]Valve MvM[/URL], this is only a 1/6.5~ ratio, and doesn't mean that it's that popular compared to, say, Two Cities, but it shows that there's a thrist for more MvM content, even though it's optimistic to think that more MvM content will come from the TF2 team themselves. Hopefully there will be more community MvM contests and tours, they're incredibly fun to take part of and it makes the wait between TF2 updates more bearable.[/QUOTE] I'm glad to see it doing so well, I played through all the waves/mission shortly after it started and had a lot of fun.

[t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/914666987396446537/9E5B85252CEB74CB3CA928231580E9547FEAEF65/[/t] Finally completed... Now to play the mode without worrying about which maps I play on and for complete fun lol. [QUOTE=TheBorealis;53195107]Do you think they should implement the unused pixel rocket trail for the Original?[/QUOTE] I'd be all for it... But it might feel out of place since the original rocket launcher is also significantly more detailed as apposed to the actually look of it in Quake/QuakeWorld Team Fortress: [t]http://www.quaketerminus.com/quakebible/quake20.jpg[/t] [t]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cvSG66ZW2ck/maxresdefault.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53195107]Do you think they should implement the unused pixel rocket trail for the Original?[/QUOTE] My intuition says "no" to ensure that people don't visually confuse rockets that are functionally identical since you wont' always have your eyeballs on the soldier at the time of him firing it. My nostalgia says "yes" because it pains me to see unused stuff that's basically functional already. My other nostalgia can think of a few places it could be repurposed without interfering with the above.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53195195]My intuition says "no" to ensure that people don't visually confuse rockets that are functionally identical since you wont' always have your eyeballs on the soldier at the time of him firing it. My nostalgia says "yes" because it pains me to see unused stuff that's basically functional already. My other nostalgia can think of a few places it could be repurposed without interfering with the above.[/QUOTE] anyone familiar with syncing says "no"

Is there something on gamebanana that shuts Pauling up permanently? There should be...

[QUOTE=Ultravod;53195463]Is there something on gamebanana that shuts Pauling up permanently? There should be...[/QUOTE] all you can do is mute music in sound options

i wish we have more bow and arrow weapons

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53194866]Has it occurred to you that this entire conversation about sniper refers to sniper with that human error and other factors implied? Yes. You can miss, have scorch shots spammed, soldiers bomb and all manner of other nonsense going on, yet still encounter the problems mentioned because of the core design problems with sniper, who's basically a twitch aim minigame in a class shooter that's otherwise completely designed around midrange movement-based combat. Actual gameplay shows us that cowering in spawn and bodyshotting the crap out of players who would otherwise out DM you, instead of actually playing the game is craven and bad design. Actual gameplay shows us that even at the top levels, sniper dominates to the point of unlock bans, and in small sided games is only not run because of his one real downside, slow speed. So no. We've covered that part.[/QUOTE] Oh ok so the problems are that you get bodyshot (literally the least effective way of dealing 150 damage in the game btw) sometimes which requires less skill and has no counterplay if you shoot from a spawn door(?), and that at top levels, the character with the highest skill ceiling does pretty well, but not well enough to actually be run full time in small games where his picks matter more. Sounds like a bit of overstatement to call that a core problem

[QUOTE=Mould;53196064]Oh ok so the problems are that you get bodyshot (literally the least effective way of dealing 150 damage in the game btw) sometimes which requires less skill and has no counterplay if you shoot from a spawn door(?), and that at top levels, the character with the highest skill ceiling does pretty well, but not well enough to actually be run full time in small games where his picks matter more. Sounds like a bit of overstatement to call that a core problem[/QUOTE] Well that seems to be made of straw. So, you really think there's no fundamental problem with having a class be primarily countered by itself, with few options for anyone else in a game that's supposedly a midrange class shooter? And also having that class be the only one who gets to fight outside how the rest of the game is designed? Yes, clearly, that's fine. Also, the least effective way of dealing 150 in the game is with things like, oh I don't know, virtually all of the classes weapons at sniper's effective range? I'd take the ability to deal an instant, largely unblockable (without charge elements like uber or banners) 150-450 to anyone I can [I]see[/I] over that, and from relative or complete safety too. You call the ability to drop the med from across the map while behind your team and safe from reprisal from anyone but yourself ineffective? That's a bit of a thinker right there...

honestly I'm fine with sniper camping in once place because that's generally what sniper is supposed to do, what's fucked are snipers who are all over the map popping 150's in an instant because there's no technical skill ceiling for him

Have an awfully drawn concept image of how Highlander/6s Queue [I]could[/I] work and combat the issue of certain classes not being in-game/6 spy mains in a team etc. [t]https://i.imgur.com/UdODAsB.png[/t] It would work in a way that the Matchmaker would attempt to scramble teams together which have different preferences in classes; If it was Highlander, it would always try to scramble all 9 class preferences in a team, while if it was 6s, it would always attempt to put 1 medic, 2 offensive, 2 defense and 1 support in a team. I know the meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers 1 demo and a med, but I currently don't really know how you'd solve this issue via a Matchmaking system. Depending on what class preference you choose, the bars would show you how long your estimate queue time would be, this would do the following: 1. Encourage players to play classes currently needed instead of sticking to their main; I heard the TF2 team wanted the competitive rank to reflect the player's skill on all classes, this would somewhat support it, as one-tricks/3000 spy mains which refuse to switch would have to wait longer in times where there are too many support classes and people that main/can work with several classes could adapt to the situation. 2. Maybe encourage more people to play certain classes This is a pure concept, and any suggestions would be great because I find this interesting to discuss. Chances are there is a blatant flaw that makes this system awfully stupid, but I'm just thinking of how to improve Matchmaking in contrast to, say, Overwatch where sometimes you'd get shuffled with 4 mercy mains which all fight over mercy. A preference system would fix such an issue, wouldnt it?

Classifying anything by "defense, offense, support" is silly. That's not how tf2 is played at a competitive level, having an equal balance of soldiers scouts and pyros, and demos heavies and engis makes no sense with how comp works. Those categories are almost entirely arbitrary.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53196379]Classifying anything by "defense, offense, support" is silly. That's not how tf2 is played at a competitive level, having an equal balance of soldiers scouts and pyros, and demos heavies and engis makes no sense with how comp works. Those categories are almost entirely arbitrary.[/QUOTE] Suggestions on how else to make a preference system work for 6s? If it's highlander it's obvious, but 6s im breaking me brains about.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53196107]Well that seems to be made of straw. So, you really think there's no fundamental problem with having a class be primarily countered by itself, with few options for anyone else in a game that's supposedly a midrange class shooter? And also having that class be the only one who gets to fight outside how the rest of the game is designed? Yes, clearly, that's fine. Also, the least effective way of dealing 150 in the game is with things like, oh I don't know, virtually all of the classes weapons at sniper's effective range? I'd take the ability to deal an instant, largely unblockable (without charge elements like uber or banners) 150-450 to anyone I can [I]see[/I] over that, and from relative or complete safety too. You call the ability to drop the med from across the map while behind your team and safe from reprisal from anyone but yourself ineffective? That's a bit of a thinker right there...[/QUOTE] I don't agree that sniper is primarily countered by itself in the first place or that most classes have no way of dealing with him [QUOTE=Fluury;53196395]Suggestions on how else to make a preference system work for 6s? If it's highlander it's obvious, but 6s im breaking me brains about.[/QUOTE] just don't have one? why is it necessary when barely any games use it and work perfectly fine

[QUOTE=Mould;53196470] just don't have one? why is it necessary when barely any games use it and work perfectly fine[/QUOTE] It isn't fine, though. The only other game that has a similar situation as TF2 is Overwatch and it's met with the issue that people dont wanna play support, DPS, Tank etc. - Teams are matched up with 4 support mains and you are automatically screwed.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53196395]Suggestions on how else to make a preference system work for 6s? If it's highlander it's obvious, but 6s im breaking me brains about.[/QUOTE] For now, obvious solution is to make it so you put your preference for soldier, scout demo, and medic in. Valve wants to change that meta, but until it actually IS changed they need to build around how the game is played competitively. If they manage to direct the meta into something different, then any preference based matchmaker will need to be devised based on what the meta ends up becoming. If they don't want to accomodate the current meta in fear of further cementing it, then they'll simply have to do without a preference system until a new meta has been established. You can't just ignore the meta and make a preference system based on something totally arbitrary though.

I don't mean to be offensive here, but one of the main problems with that system (and team composition in general) is the support mains themselves, the ones who refuse to play anything but that one class in situations where it's not relevant or useful. This game has nine classes for a reason. You are meant to switch between them for the most utility and use in the given situation, not think that your dunning-kruger levels of skill will be able to get your team any more help as the 5th spy. That's the cold truth. Being a specialist "main" probably means you should be good at something else too if you don't want to be a potential burden. The generalists are a bit of a different story, as they are flexible and not terribly switch-prone and can be mained reasonably without any loss to team strength, [I]that's just how the game is.[/I] I think meet the medic was a hidden example of this: a generalist (medic) and a specialist (heavy) working together to defeat a homogeneous horde of soldiers and putting the team in team fortress 2.