TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

Someone who has 6000 hours on soldier is capable of playing against someone who has 6000 hours on sniper, just because the sniper guy will be dominating the match if he played against averages doesn't mean sniper is op, because so would the soldier

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53196769]I don't mean to be offensive here, but one of the main problems with that system (and team composition in general) is the support mains themselves, the ones who refuse to play anything but that one class in situations where it's not relevant or useful. This game has nine classes for a reason. You are meant to switch between them for the most utility and use in the given situation, not think that your dunning-kruger levels of skill will be able to get your team any more help as the 5th spy. That's the cold truth. Being a specialist "main" probably means you should be good at something else too if you don't want to be a potential burden. The generalists are a bit of a different story, as they are flexible and not terribly switch-prone and can be mained reasonably without any loss to team strength, [I]that's just how the game is.[/I] I think meet the medic was a hidden example of this: a generalist (medic) and a specialist (heavy) working together to defeat a homogeneous horde of soldiers and putting the team in team fortress 2.[/QUOTE] I'll be frank with you, I don't think you need a 100% meta enforcement on Matchmaking. Part of the reason why I am really excited for MM is to play it with friends and try out interesting, off-meta strategies and see how far we can get in a competitive enviorment - just how in Overwatch teams could win with off-meta strategies, the same will go for TF2, all we need is ELO and placements. The preference system was thought of mostly for solo-queues.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53196892]I'll be frank with you, I don't think you need a 100% meta enforcement on Matchmaking. Part of the reason why I am really excited for MM is to play it with friends and try out interesting, off-meta strategies and see how far we can get in a competitive enviorment - just how in Overwatch teams could win with off-meta strategies, the same will go for TF2, all we need is ELO and placements. The preference system was thought of mostly for solo-queues.[/QUOTE] Of course not, but you still need to have some sort of team composition tool otherwise its just going to be 5 sombra + a genji so to speak. And that's the problem with comp, is that off meta strats and diversity are great and good for the health of the game... They just need to compliment viable play is all.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53196341]Have an awfully drawn concept image of how Highlander/6s Queue [I]could[/I] work and combat the issue of certain classes not being in-game/6 spy mains in a team etc. [t]https://i.imgur.com/UdODAsB.png[/t] It would work in a way that the Matchmaker would attempt to scramble teams together which have different preferences in classes; If it was Highlander, it would always try to scramble all 9 class preferences in a team, while if it was 6s, it would always attempt to put 1 medic, 2 offensive, 2 defense and 1 support in a team. I know the meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers 1 demo and a med, but I currently don't really know how you'd solve this issue via a Matchmaking system. Depending on what class preference you choose, the bars would show you how long your estimate queue time would be, this would do the following: 1. Encourage players to play classes currently needed instead of sticking to their main; I heard the TF2 team wanted the competitive rank to reflect the player's skill on all classes, this would somewhat support it, as one-tricks/3000 spy mains which refuse to switch would have to wait longer in times where there are too many support classes and people that main/can work with several classes could adapt to the situation. 2. Maybe encourage more people to play certain classes This is a pure concept, and any suggestions would be great because I find this interesting to discuss. Chances are there is a blatant flaw that makes this system awfully stupid, but I'm just thinking of how to improve Matchmaking in contrast to, say, Overwatch where sometimes you'd get shuffled with 4 mercy mains which all fight over mercy. A preference system would fix such an issue, wouldnt it?[/QUOTE] But then you get a bottleneck that limits your flexibility in team comp or ends with people gaming the system so they can get into games faster, but will end up playing the class they wanted anyway. You could lock people into roles they queue for, but then that means if you want an engi on last you have to have your demo switch, which means engi will never ever be played and comp will become a dead mode again.

Since Dota just got a [url=http://www.dota2.com/plus]subscription-based service[/url] that replaces its standard seasonal passes, it raises the question: how would we all feel about that being a thing for Team Fortress? Replacing campaign passes with a subscription service that provided free access to each campaign, with some extra bonuses. I realize that Dota is an entirely different genre and style than Team Fortress is, and that Valve hasn't done too many TF2 campaigns -- but I'm curious to see if the discussion for this doesn't end with those two points. If we ended up having four scheduled, three-months campaigns a year, let's say, would that make anybody use something like this?

[QUOTE=MarioMaster2008;53197026]Since Dota just got a [url=http://www.dota2.com/plus]subscription-based service[/url] that replaces its standard seasonal passes, it raises the question: how would we all feel about that being a thing for Team Fortress? Replacing campaign passes with a subscription service that provided free access to each campaign, with some extra bonuses. I realize that Dota is an entirely different genre and style than Team Fortress is, and that Valve hasn't done too many TF2 campaigns -- but I'm curious to see if the discussion for this doesn't end with those two points. If we ended up having four scheduled, three-months campaigns a year, let's say, would that make anybody use something like this?[/QUOTE] From my post in the spambots section [QUOTE=TheBorealis;53197009]an [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/83wx5c/dota_plus_analysis_by_an_exf2p_game_product/"]analysis[/URL] from a former F2P game community/product manager thinks this is Valve's monitization strategy after Dota 2 "peaked" , replacing big payouts from a small number of people with compendiums and battle passes with a more steady revenue stream, trying to make existing players' experience better rather than attract new players.[/QUOTE] TF2 has already "peaked" and it seems they're already trying out a new monitization method with war paint, I'd only be ok with a subscription if TF2 got ten times more developers and a Source 2 port.

[QUOTE=MarioMaster2008;53197026]Since Dota just got a [url=http://www.dota2.com/plus]subscription-based service[/url] that replaces its standard seasonal passes, it raises the question: how would we all feel about that being a thing for Team Fortress? Replacing campaign passes with a subscription service that provided free access to each campaign, with some extra bonuses. I realize that Dota is an entirely different genre and style than Team Fortress is, and that Valve hasn't done too many TF2 campaigns -- but I'm curious to see if the discussion for this doesn't end with those two points. If we ended up having four scheduled, three-months campaigns a year, let's say, would that make anybody use something like this?[/QUOTE] I think it's painfully clear that tf2 is never going to be updated with enough frequency to make this a reasonable business model for this game.

[t]https://i.redd.it/yhufrsdr3fl01.jpg[/t] [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/83znki/every_single_time/"]source[/URL]

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53197199][t]https://i.redd.it/yhufrsdr3fl01.jpg[/t] [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/83znki/every_single_time/"]source[/URL][/QUOTE] In a competitive scene, I'd think it be more along the lines of "I bump into anyone on the enemy team and die" except maybe medic or the enemy spy. maybe...

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53197233]In a competitive scene, I'd think it be more along the lines of "I bump into anyone on the enemy team and die" except maybe medic or the enemy spy. maybe...[/QUOTE] Or someone randomly shouts "spy time/watch for spies, he's respawned" whenever they feel suspicious and the heavy, pyro spray shots everywhere, hitting the invisible you on 100% luck. And the medic turns around to see this happen, and starts screeching into comms which causes everyone to obliterate you instantly.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53197233]In a competitive scene, I'd think it be more along the lines of "I bump into anyone on the enemy team and die" except maybe medic or the enemy spy. maybe...[/QUOTE] If only spy was allowed to have a high skill primary weapon that gave him more to do than just sit in cloaked corners and wait.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53197407]If only spy was allowed to have a primary weapon that made him into a weaker Sniper with cloak.[/QUOTE] Now what ever could you possibly be talking about?

[QUOTE=Oizen;53197407]If only spy was allowed to have a high skill primary weapon that gave him more to do than just sit in cloaked corners and wait.[/QUOTE] Nah... That might make him viable against competent players... Can't be having none of that now! lol

Imagine the thought. A light class with a weapon that could 2 shot other classes, it has never been done before. Its so scandalous.

[QUOTE=Oizen;53197534]Imagine the thought. A light class with a weapon that could 2 shot other classes, it has never been done before. Its so scandalous.[/QUOTE] Imagine wanting snipers to be able to get anywhere and anywhere unimpeded and when caught they're able to hide instead of face the people they've been shooting at.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53196873]Someone who has 6000 hours on soldier is capable of playing against someone who has 6000 hours on sniper, just because the sniper guy will be dominating the match if he played against averages doesn't mean sniper is op, because so would the soldier[/QUOTE] I mean, yes, but the sniper has the ability to instantly one shot the soldier even with all of his advanced movement in a 1v1 before he gets close enough for his weapons to deal any real damage. And it's the same thing for everybody but sniper. Do you know one of the reasons why the sniper pick in HL is so valuable? Why people throw their lives away for it? Because that leaves the other sniper to shoot at anyone he wants on the battlefield, largely uncontested. Bombers, spies, scout rushes are all called countered and can be hid from, but if you risk your medic peeking a corner on any of those things except say, a suicidal spy play or your sniper getting the counter-pick, then you're being incredibly foolish.

the only crime about snipers is when they're left unharrassed and nobody does a thing about it

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53197538]Imagine wanting snipers to be able to get anywhere and anywhere unimpeded and when caught they're able to hide instead of face the people they've been shooting at.[/QUOTE] imagine that...except the snipers can't charge their shots, have much lower burst damage, and are easily chased down and killed by classes with superior mobility (Scout, Soldier, Demoman) or high-DPS weapons that close the gap in speed and render cloaks meaningless (every flamethrower ever) 102 ≠ 150-450 Amby Spy < Sniper in every way if the unnerfed Ambassador made Spy anywhere near as deadly as you seem to think, then why was Sniper still the dominant 6s offclass while it existed? why were Snipers still the most powerful class in Highlander? :thinking: aside from Sigafoo, no high-level player I can think of actually thought the Ambassador was overpowered. hell, even Sigafoo only took issue with it when combined with Dead Ringer spam, which has since been nerfed. unlimited range 102s may have been annoying as all shit, but they weren't a balance issue. they just pissed people off, pubbers and Engie mains especially. (remember Ambysniping Engie nests? can't do that anymore!) I don't even really want unlimited range 102s back, but god damn if the current state of the weapon isn't fucking miserable to use. It's dramatically impacted my enjoyment of the class, its effective skill ceiling and its power in coordinated play. Not only does it fail to be viable, it fails to be [I]fun[/I].

[QUOTE=Contra132;53197580]unlimited range 102s may have been annoying as all shit, but they weren't a balance issue. they just pissed people off, pubbers and Engie mains especially. (remember Ambysniping Engie nests? can't do that anymore!) I don't even really want unlimited range 102s back, but god damn if the current state of the weapon isn't fucking miserable to use. It's dramatically impacted my enjoyment of the class, its effective skill ceiling and its power in coordinated play. Not only does it fail to be viable, it fails to be [I]fun[/I].[/QUOTE] I'm a massive dumb pubbie but I think it's only fair that if a spy can snipe an engineer nest then the engineer should be able to snipe back. That being said I loathe the ambassador but I'd like to see its' old range come back.

[QUOTE=CMS2000;53197597]I'm a massive dumb pubbie but I think it's only fair that if a spy can snipe an engineer nest then the engineer should be able to snipe back.[/quote] [t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/0/04/Wrangler_RED.png[/t] -no limited range -no falloff -fires rockets engineer already had counterplay for that kind of bullshit [quote]That being said I loathe the ambassador but I'd like to see its' old range come back.[/QUOTE] I'd be fine with keeping falloff but removing the headshot range limit, personally. (Making ranged Amby spam do only 51 damage). That's what really agitates me- that I can't get positive feedback for hitting hard-to-hit shots at range anymore. The game arbitrarily deciding that my headshots don't count past a certain range is really aggravating.

The Nerfbassador is pretty bad. They should have just capped a range on crits to prevent sniping across the map. I'm talking the space between product's balconies (China) as being a little excessive. But then just kept the damage as it was. If you McCree the shit out of someone in direct combat, well, you deserved to win the fight there cowboy.

From what I've experienced, Amby Spy is a shittier version of Scout, if you're getting consistently ambassador headshotted from across the map, you're probably fighting a hacker or just standing still.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53197617]The Nerfbassador is pretty bad. They should have just capped a range on crits to prevent sniping across the map. I'm talking the space between product's balconies (China) as being a little excessive. But then just kept the damage as it was. If you McCree the shit out of someone in direct combat, well, you deserved to win the fight there cowboy.[/QUOTE] That's...what they did. Albeit much more strict than china-to-china or 2fort balcony-to-balcony. I mean, they did falloff, too, but that's what they did. The range shouldn't be nerfed. The range is what makes the weapon fun- to push your aim to the limit and get positive feedback for it. The only thing that should've been changed was the damage. The falloff is restrictive, but fine, I guess.

[QUOTE=Contra132;53197622]That's...what they did. Albeit much more strict than china-to-china or 2fort balcony-to-balcony. I mean, they did falloff, too, but that's what they did. The range shouldn't be nerfed. The range is what makes the weapon fun- to push your aim to the limit and get positive feedback for it. The only thing that should've been changed was the damage. The falloff is restrictive, but fine, I guess.[/QUOTE] That range is entirely excessive. Falloff is dumb, but anything beyond that aforementioned range should deal reduced damage or at least not crit. Remove the falloff, bring back the 102s within that range so you can still fight on the flank and you're golden. Hitting shots at that many hammer units tends to boil down to sheer number of attempts made, and since you're the spy, who has basically all the time in the world to take those shots due to being able to cloak into the backfield, it becomes an annoyance. Not an annoyance to completely gut the weapon over like they did, but still worth a look at what people were doing with it.

what the fuck is wrong with matchmaking today 2 full games from start to finish that were 12-10 v 8-6

~snipp~ Just noticed he said start to finish... Only time I see that is when a match ends... for whatever reason a match will start that doesn't get new players in and since no team scramble at the end of matches people stay on the same teams in the new round often makes it really lopsided when that happens. Although people filling in spot does seem to happen more frequently now at least, it's still not always garunteed.

[QUOTE=Kaiga;53197634]That range is entirely excessive. Falloff is dumb, but anything beyond that aforementioned range should deal reduced damage or at least not crit. Remove the falloff, bring back the 102s within that range so you can still fight on the flank and you're golden. Hitting shots at that many hammer units tends to boil down to sheer number of attempts made, and since you're the spy, who has basically all the time in the world to take those shots due to being able to cloak into the backfield, it becomes an annoyance. Not an annoyance to completely gut the weapon over like they did, but still worth a look at what people were doing with it.[/QUOTE] I originally wanted minicrits past a certain range for full 102s.

The thing about the ambassador that always rubs me the wrong way is that with the old version you could take 102 damage, instantly, from any range (theoretically, in practice after a certain distance it's unlikely but with a skilled enough player it get's pretty nuts), by a disguised spy who can vanish on command. Other things in the game that do that much damage generally feel like you have more of an opportunity to avoid it. You know when a grenade or a rocket is coming because of their travel time, you know when a meatshot is coming because scout has to close the distance first, even with backstabs you can realistically check people who get close, but with the ambassador you just suddenly are at 25 health because some guy 50 feet away who looks like a teammate at a glace clicked on you before you had any opportunity to do anything about it. At least snipers have to rely on predictable sightlines. Amby was really frustrating because there's really no counterplay to just losing almost all your health to somebody too far away to reliably deal with before he fucks off with his fuck-off button.

How about this as a buff to all Invis Watches: A certain damage threshold has to be fulfilled in order for a spy to show his silhouette while cloaked. For instance, his cloak damage threshold is set to 50 damage. If he's been hit by a bullet/projectile that's below 50 damage, his cloak silhouette will not appear. This means that even if he's been hit by stray bullets, especially those affected by fall off, he won't be revealed. Engineers can't spray corners or corridors with bullets anymore, nor can heavies accidentally reveal a spy that tried to cross his line of fire from afar. The spy is much more elusive without an accidental cross fire reveal. What can set off the cloak? Concentrated shotgun or scatter gun blasts with most of the pellets hitting, a heavy connecting all 4 of his bullets on a spy, pretty much any gun that can deal more than or equal to 50 damage can reveal the spy as it was before.

[QUOTE=CMS2000;53197597]I'm a massive dumb pubbie but I think it's only fair that if a spy can snipe an engineer nest then the engineer should be able to snipe back.[/QUOTE] Well I'd prefer the game not devolve into Sniper Fortress 2.