TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6 - Year of the Guard Dog SURVEY IN OP - Games

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53097841]I never really got why ScoRes destroys enemy stickybombs. The entire point is that it's supposed to be used for making big traps, not for pushing into enemy traps. I think it makes more sense on quickiebomb, quickiebomb is actually meant to be used aggressively.[/QUOTE] there was this one comp guy who mained weird weps like FaN and ScoRes, he used the latter to deny demomen by putting up stickies around any doorways the enemy demo could spam through and detonated the stickies one by one as enemy stickies flew past, zapping them out of the air in the process, kinda short circuit-style there's footage of him denying an uber this way but I can't find it atm

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53097841]I never really got why ScoRes destroys enemy stickybombs. The entire point is that it's supposed to be used for making big traps, not for pushing into enemy traps. I think it makes more sense on quickiebomb, quickiebomb is actually meant to be used aggressively.[/QUOTE] I also found this strange, and I agree that it should be Quickiebomb's function. Recently in the Weapon Fixing Megathread I did a post on the Scottish Resistance. [QUOTE=Blackavar;53073576]Scottish Resistance. (+) 25% faster firing speed (+) 50% increased max secondary ammo on wearer (+) 6 more max stickybombs out (+) Detonates stickybombs near the crosshair and directly under your feet (+) Able to destroy enemy stickybombs (-) 0.8 sec slower bomb arm time Not a useless weapon, as seen in MvM, anyway, but pretty useless in 6s and even Casual. The arm time keeps the user from outputting constant damage, and the user must aim at their stickybombs before they can set them off. But really, it's that arm time that keeps the weapon from becoming powerful. Notes: Being able to destroy enemy stickybombs is worthless with this weapon. By the time you can set off your own stickybombs, the enemy Demoman would likely have already detonated the ones you were trying to destroy. Here's a rough draft of the weapon I think it should be: [B](+) 6 more max stickybombs out (+) Detonates stickybombs near the crosshair and directly under your feet (+) Stickybombs cannot be destroyed (except by Quickiebomb Launcher) (-) 0.8 sec slower bomb arm time[/B] I removed the firing speed bonus to balance out the massive buff I gave the weapon. Obviously, the increased amount of stickybombs the Demoman can have out allows him to set multiple lethal traps. The next attribute is pretty much the entire design of the weapon.. And the big change here is that the stickybombs from this weapon would no longer be able to be destroyed. Big because Scouts shooting the stickybombs from a Demoman is a big deal in early midfights, and the Demoman being able to spam big chunks of area denial at the enemy would immediately make the weapon viable. But the large arm time keeps it in check as a spam weapon. Besides, just because the bombs can't be destroyed doesn't mean they can't be moved by rockets or airblast. But because the Demoman can choose which stickybombs to detonate, every bomb that is moved somewhere becomes another hazard for the enemy to deal with. In my opinion this weapon would raise the skill ceiling of the class in regards to awareness of where the enemy is at all times. Next, I'd probably edit the Quickiebomb Launcher to be useful.[/QUOTE]

Probably mostly added as a way to clear a spawn door that got loaded with bombs during setup time. Otherwise, you can move them around but due to the way spawns were designed you couldn’t tell if they were actually far enough away until someone steps out and the demo dets. Since it was the first gun-based sticky replacement, they decided to give it that ability, but with the addition of the quickbomb, the ability doesn’t need to be forced as a side effect on the older gun.

[QUOTE=Drury;53097917]there was this one comp guy who mained weird weps like FaN and ScoRes, he used the latter to deny demomen by putting up stickies around any doorways the enemy demo could spam through and detonated the stickies one by one as enemy stickies flew past, zapping them out of the air in the process, kinda short circuit-style there's footage of him denying an uber this way but I can't find it atm[/QUOTE] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg3uAt6iXkY[/media]

Here's an idea for the ScoRes: Destroys all projectiles. Rockets, milk, Jarate, Arrows etc.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53097951]Here's an idea for the ScoRes: Destroys all projectiles. Rockets, milk, Jarate, Arrows etc.[/QUOTE] With the arming time on it, I doubt it would be that interesting/relevant of a buff.

The ScoRes does its job fine. It's meant to be purely defensive, and it excels at that. The problem with the weapon lies in the fact that playing purely defensively sucks and limits yourself.

[QUOTE=Kincaid1;53097964]The ScoRes does its job fine. It's meant to be purely defensive, and it excels at that. The problem with the weapon lies in the fact that playing purely defensively sucks and limits yourself.[/QUOTE] It's never used in competitive. It's not viable. Any weapon that isn't viable or ever used in competitive should be changed in some interesting way that gives it some real use.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53097978]It's never used in competitive. It's not viable. Any weapon that isn't viable or ever used in competitive should be changed in some interesting way that gives it some real use.[/QUOTE] It's not that it's not viable, it's that the weapon is so limited in application that it's borderline useless outside of that 1 specific setup that it's good at. The issue being is that 1 specific setup requires time, time that usually the Demo won't have if his team is getitng shoved back into last as it is. The time necessary for the Demo to change his loadout is time that's not being used to make a counterpush or even bolster their own defense (ironically enough) You can't push with the thing, all you can do is hold off and maybe get a snipe if the other team isn't checking doorways like they should.

[vid]https://files.catbox.moe/pl29t3.webm[/vid] heres another reason for comp

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53097892]Ah... They ever mention why Demomen specifically got the "Demo Knight" weapons? Demo being normally pretty weak in close combat since his two main guns are explosive base, it feels odd he'd get the melee weapon set ups over say a class like Pyro, who generally specializes in close combat fights... This is legitmently something I've been wondering since the Demo Knight set ups came out years up years ago...[/QUOTE] It's probably [I]because[/I] he was weak in close range that they gave him this alternate option. Since most classes do better at closer ranges, an option that buffs melee would risk either making the class [I]too[/I] strong at close ranges, or else being outmatched by your primary in the same circumstances. Back then, the axtinguisher was in everyone's loadout and had no switch-speed penalty. It's hard to imagine a balanced new melee playstyle that competes with a reliable axtinguish or a scattergun meatshot. But who knows. It's just as likely someone just thought claymores are cool and demo is Scottish and went from there.

i hope the steak gets buffed

Fun tidbit about the Eyelander, it's not ACTUALLY a reference to the film Highlander outside of its name and mechanics, visually it's a reference to Braveheart: [t]http://static.tvgcdn.net/rovi/showcards/movie/130677/thumbs/16930914_1242x1656.jpg[/t] A double-whammy Scot-movie reference. Connor MacLeod in HL uses a katana.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53097992]It's not that it's not viable, it's that the weapon is so limited in application that it's borderline useless outside of that 1 specific setup that it's good at. The issue being is that 1 specific setup requires time, time that usually the Demo won't have if his team is getitng shoved back into last as it is. The time necessary for the Demo to change his loadout is time that's not being used to make a counterpush or even bolster their own defense (ironically enough) You can't push with the thing, all you can do is hold off and maybe get a snipe if the other team isn't checking doorways like they should.[/QUOTE] That's what my changes are supposed to fix, anyway. The idea is that the Scottish Resistance is amazing at setting traps, but also great at creating area denial: the stickybombs cannot be destroyed, only moved. On mid, the demo in this instance can spam stickies everywhere on the point, around choke/flank, etc. The enemy team has to be very careful as the only method of destroying those stickybombs is by having the demo on their team use the quickiebomb launcher, or by simply killing the demoman (who, granted, will likely be playing further back). To increase the power of the traps the Demoman sets, a couple of other stats might be added to the weapon: (+) 25% faster firing speed (this was one of the original stats) (+) 6 more max stickybombs out (+) Detonates stickybombs near the crosshair and directly under your feet (+) Stickybombs cannot be destroyed (except by Quickiebomb Launcher) (+) 25% increased projectile speed (-) 0.8 sec slower bomb arm time This is probably overpowered now, but we could simply tone the other stats down a bit to fix that. Quickiebomb Launcher, then, should be made for extreme spam offense, and bring back the bomb fizzling so it can't be used for defense or trapping.

Can Scottish destroy Rockets?

[QUOTE=rolfum;53098016]i hope the steak gets buffed[/QUOTE] Well, changed entirely, anyway. Currently, steak is banned in 6s because it gives Heavy a no-downside rollout tool. But in combat, the item is entirely useless. [QUOTE=Blackavar;52928717]This change is likely to be very controversial, ESPECIALLY when combined with the minigun it was released with (Brass Beast). They work together very well after these changes, you see, and allow Heavy to be a tank that deals massive damage even at long range, without being able to move much at all. But I think the Steak needed a new purpose, and heavier damage output at the expense of survivability and movement speed, I think, is a worthy purpose for a lunchbox item to serve. --Buffalo Steak Sandvich (i) While under the effects, attacks minicrit, damage taken will be minicrits, and the player moves 15% slower. (you can use your Minigun still) Alt-fire: Share with a friend (Medium Health Kit)[/QUOTE] [editline]31st January 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=qubestf2;53098041]Can Scottish destroy Rockets?[/QUOTE] Not at the moment, the current stats (+) 25% faster firing speed (+) 50% increased max secondary ammo on wearer (+) 6 more max stickybombs out (+) Detonates stickybombs near the crosshair and directly under your feet [B](+) Able to destroy enemy stickybombs[/B] (-) 0.8 sec slower bomb arm time only say that it can destroy enemy stickybombs

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53098045]Well, changed entirely, anyway. Currently, steak is banned in 6s because it gives Heavy a no-downside rollout tool. But in combat, the item is entirely useless. [editline]31st January 2018[/editline] Not at the moment, the current stats (+) 25% faster firing speed (+) 50% increased max secondary ammo on wearer (+) 6 more max stickybombs out (+) Detonates stickybombs near the crosshair and directly under your feet [B](+) Able to destroy enemy stickybombs[/B] (-) 0.8 sec slower bomb arm time only say that it can destroy enemy stickybombs[/QUOTE] Would be pretty sick if it could destroy ALL the projectiles, no?

sticky shielding isn't a thing because you get better results with just outright killing or pushing people. not to mention airblast or short-circuit don't need any sort of preparation so you should just switch to these instead

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53098045]Well, changed entirely, anyway. Currently, steak is banned in 6s because it gives Heavy a no-downside rollout tool. But in combat, the item is entirely useless[/QUOTE] honestly I'd still like melee heavy to be a thing if only because some big fat man charging at you and beating people to death with his bare [I]or sometimes literal bear[/I] hands is pretty comical

Anyone know why the Flying Guillotine is still banned in 6s? Compared to the Wrap Assassin's ornament it only deals 35 more damage and its base recharge is just 1.5s faster. But you're giving up a Pistol to use it instead. Maybe I'm missing something.

[QUOTE=Dr. Nick;53098106]Anyone know why the Flying Guillotine is still banned in 6s? Compared to the Wrap Assassin's ornament it only deals 35 more damage and its base recharge is just 1.5s faster. But you're giving up a Pistol to use it instead. Maybe I'm missing something.[/QUOTE] Too good for spamming down chokes I believe

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53098108]Too good for spamming down chokes I believe[/QUOTE] Could the same not be said for the Wrap Assassin though? It's not banned and it doesn't really have a major drawback.

[QUOTE=Dr. Nick;53098118]Could the same not be said for the Wrap Assassin though? It's not banned and it doesn't really have a major drawback.[/QUOTE] Wrap Assassin is being used alot in comp. Guilotine is banned beacuse of really fast recharge speed afaik. Deals quite some damge on hit.

[QUOTE=Dr. Nick;53098118]Could the same not be said for the Wrap Assassin though? It's not banned and it doesn't really have a major drawback.[/QUOTE] Losing out on uber building for Scout is a lot bigger of a deal than a 40 damage projectile from the WA. The Boston Basher will probably never lose it's throne since Scout should never be meleeing in the first place, the WA is still free damage but it's not too much to be offensive. Meanwhile a spammable 90-damage one with no falloff is a bit bigger of a concern.

About alternative loadouts, I usually try to make myself worse. For example, I straight up refuse to use the stock minigun bacause I know that a compenent heavy is just not fun to play against. Instead, I use the brass beast with stock fists to occasionally go for taunt kills. Same goes for the liberty launcher. But because I have used both so much I feel like I'm becoming the annoying pub stomper again, but, eh. You lose some (over time with practice) you win some.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53098136]Losing out on uber building for Scout is a lot bigger of a deal than a 40 damage projectile from the WA. The Boston Basher will probably never lose it's throne since Scout should never be meleeing in the first place, the WA is still free damage but it's not too much to be offensive. Meanwhile a spammable 90-damage one with no falloff is a bit bigger of a concern.[/QUOTE] With full bleed the WA's projectile would do 55. But yeah that's a really good point. Any ideas on what, if anything, would make it allowable without making it underpowered in a casual format?

It needs its cd nerfed flat-out. It's completely bonkers in its current state. Ideally, it'd only be pickupable from ammo boxes so it feels like like a MOBA skill, but that might be too strong (same with other throwables IMO, the only one that kind makes sense for regrowing is Jarate). It also needs to not apply double bleed if you run both WA and Guillotine. You do an insane amount of damage if you hit both.

Fix ScoRes so you can actually always detonate the stickies, no matter where are you in the map. Currently visleafs block stickies and you can't detonate them through a visleaf.

Late AF for most of the discussion. Being an adult is a PITA. 1. Random cricks suck ass. Particularly with when Soldier, Demo or Scout get them. 2. Water is wet. Further research needed to see if it rolls downhill. 3. Pyro's primaries are such a goatfuck right now, random crits are mostly irrelevant with them. 4. I don't find I die to a Heavy who gets random crits terribly often. 5. Removing random crits is a slight buff to Sniper (Mr. No Damage Falloff). 6. This can be be solved by ...nerfing Sniper. 7. I actually don't mind random crits for melee weapons. 8. Fortunately, for community servers there's tf_weapon_criticals_melee 2 (which works in tandem with tf_weapon_criticals 0). 9. I don't know a single pub server that runs the above setting besides my own. 10. Removing random melee crits makes demoknight, piss sniper (Jarate and the Sleeper) and CaC Scouts decidedly more powerful. 11. All of the above need adjustments anyway. 12. The Buffalo Steak Sandvich is still weak. 13. Primaries that can store crits are bullshit and become even moreso when random crits are removed. Cough cough Diamondback cough Frontier Justice. The ScoRes is actually really good on Payload Defense. Especially when paired with the Loose Cannon. A ScoRes demo really needs the backup of his direct fire friends to be viable, though. I dispise the fact that the QBL complete cockblocks the ScoRes. I am of the opinion that the QBL and Iron Bomber both need a nerf. If the QBL retains the ability to remove stickies then its own stickies should go back to fizzling again after X seconds.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53098075]sticky shielding isn't a thing because you get better results with just outright killing or pushing people. not to mention airblast or short-circuit don't need any sort of preparation so you should just switch to these instead[/QUOTE] its funny because the former punishes you for not having it and the later for doing so.