TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

[QUOTE=RedDagger;52594060]The part that confuses me is the apparent need to package all the changes into a single large update. Something like balance changes I'd expect to be released as soon as they've settled on the changes and done their testing, as most other games do...I'd much rather welcome plenty of small iterative updates like much needed balance changes on a single weapon, then putting out a slightly major update, over just lumping everything together into one package and letting the game stagnate for the rest of the time. It just doesn't make any sense.[/QUOTE] They want long patch notes to make it appear like the game isnt being treated horribly.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52594073][t]https://files.catbox.moe/f4jqpm.png[/t] I think something changed about this menu, specifically on valve servers. There appears to be the option "Spectate" now. The screenshot above was taken on a community server, where it isn't available for some odd reason. I'm pretty sure the "Spectate" option wasn't available before in valve servers in that tiny menu. As of right now, it does nothing. Can anyone confirm this?[/QUOTE] I jumped into a Casual game and there was no such option. Maybe they're rolling it out or it was some glitch pushing it to you before the Update implements its actual mechanics.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52594073][t]https://files.catbox.moe/f4jqpm.png[/t] I think something changed about this menu, specifically on valve servers. There appears to be the option "Spectate" now. The screenshot above was taken on a community server, where it isn't available for some odd reason. I'm pretty sure the "Spectate" option wasn't available before in valve servers in that tiny menu. As of right now, it does nothing. Can anyone confirm this?[/QUOTE] Am I blind ? I cant see the spectate option, this is just the "enable mouse input on scoreboard" option

[QUOTE=Fluury;52594073][t]https://files.catbox.moe/f4jqpm.png[/t] I think something changed about this menu, specifically on valve servers. There appears to be the option "Spectate" now. The screenshot above was taken on a community server, where it isn't available for some odd reason. I'm pretty sure the "Spectate" option wasn't available before in valve servers in that tiny menu. As of right now, it does nothing. Can anyone confirm this?[/QUOTE] The option only appears if you're dead. The option used to actually switch your spectate target to the designated player you selected, but it doesn't work anymore.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52593887]It's pretty sad Valve couldn't ship this update before people started going back to high school and college. I wonder how much money they're going to lose out on because people have less time to play the game than during the summer?[/QUOTE] I start my first semester of college tomorrow, and I thought no way in hell it'd take this long for it to come out. I'm still going to play regardless, but not nearly as much as I would've hoped.

[QUOTE=spundarce;52594177]The option only appears if you're dead. The option used to actually switch your spectate target to the designated player you selected, but it doesn't work anymore.[/QUOTE] I see! I never noticed that, thanks for clearing that up.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52591779]But you don't understand, the kiddies today need their one click skill-based matchmaking! I encountered a child playing LawBreakers last evening that didn't even realize what community servers were, citing console games from the PS2 era as proof that server browsers never existed.[/QUOTE] As an addendum to this post, I had the pleasure of meeting another child in a community server today. New to TF2, he made a point of lambasting the game purely because he was bad at it; he extolled [i]Overwatch[/i] for its ease and lamented the fact that he was stuck with TF2 due to a lack of funds. This is the mindset of our new generation of gamers, emphasizing accessibility over depth, leading to the skill compression that makes Blizzard's game so insufferable. Thank you very much humanity, for your stunning increase in a collective desire for instant gratification.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52595002]As an addendum to this post, I had the pleasure of meeting another child in a community server today. New to TF2, he made a point of lambasting the game purely because he was bad at it; he extolled [i]Overwatch[/i] for its ease and lamented the fact that he was stuck with TF2 due to a lack of funds. This is the mindset of our new generation of gamers, emphasizing accessibility over depth, leading to the skill compression that makes Blizzard's game so insufferable. Thank you very much humanity, for your stunning increase in a collective desire for instant gratification.[/QUOTE] It's hardly unexpected, of course people are going to get frustrated when the matchmaker is sticking 3000 hour players in with newbies.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52595016]It's hardly unexpected, of course people are going to get frustrated when the matchmaker is sticking 3000 hour players in with newbies.[/QUOTE] He was in a community server. And again, I maintain that as a new player you aren't entitled to feeling good about yourself simply because you installed the game--learn, practice, emulate those that are outplaying you. Only then do you deserve a pat on the back.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52595027]He was in a community server. And again, I maintain that as a new player you aren't entitled to feeling good about yourself simply because you installed the game--learn, practice, emulate those that are outplaying you. Only then do you deserve a pat on the back.[/QUOTE] Yes make sure to emulate the invite level pocketed soldier while you're trying to learn how to upgrade a dispenser. Difficulty curves exist for a reason, you wouldn't expect a new player to jump into the final level of a game and get any enjoyment out of playing it. You have to walk before you can run.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52595076]Yes make sure to emulate the invite level pocketed soldier while you're trying to learn how to upgrade a dispenser. Difficulty curves exist for a reason, you wouldn't expect a new player to jump into the final level of a game and get any enjoyment out of playing it. You have to walk before you can run.[/QUOTE] Exor is saying that the newbie was complaining that he would have to learn how to walk and run, when instead everyone should crawl. [editline]20th August 2017[/editline] As a side note, I like to have fun with newer players, I give them a chance in most fights.

I got this game because it was fun, back in 2012. I was absolutely garbage at the game for the first 1500 hours of play, and honestly I'm still garbage at it (besides Medic). Sometimes I stop playing because I get frustrated at the volume of players with 2 to 3 times my hours playing on the opposite team. I don't really blame new players for quitting. There are SO MANY ridiculously good players now that it's unlikely you'll get any kills in even normal Casual games.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52595098]I got this game because it was fun, back in 2012. I was absolutely garbage at the game for the first 1500 hours of play, and honestly I'm still garbage at it (besides Medic). Sometimes I stop playing because I get frustrated at the volume of players with 2 to 3 times my hours playing on the opposite team. I don't really blame new players for quitting. There are SO MANY ridiculously good players now that it's unlikely you'll get any kills in even normal Casual games.[/QUOTE] Really? Because I have the opposite problem whenever I run into casual games. Not claiming that I'm exceptionally good myself or anything, but the overwhelming number of players in casual that are so mind-numbingly clueless as to even the basics of strategy, or how to use the class they're playing is appalling. Not to mention an eternally bad team composition. It's as almost if I'm surrounded by bots pathed to the objective on both teams, which are exist to be farmed. I realize this is a result of a non-mandatory, uninformative tutorial that doesn't even launch properly, but I sometimes wish people would take casual a little more seriously and not just run out, die, run out, die ad infinitum.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52595207]Really? Because I have the opposite problem whenever I run into casual games. Not claiming that I'm exceptionally good myself or anything, but the overwhelming number of players in casual that are so mind-numbingly clueless as to even the basics of strategy, or how to use the class they're playing is appalling. Not to mention an eternally bad team composition. It's as almost if I'm surrounded by bots pathed to the objective on both teams, which are exist to be farmed. I realize this is a result of a non-mandatory, uninformative tutorial that doesn't even launch properly, but I sometimes wish people would take casual a little more seriously and not just run out, die, run out, die ad infinitum.[/QUOTE] It's the same problem. Low-skill players get demolished by high skill players, and high skill players have no challenge because they're in a match full of low skill players. Nobody has a good time because nobody's playing with people at their skill levels.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52595278]It's the same problem. Low-skill players get demolished by high skill players, and high skill players have no challenge because they're in a match full of low skill players. Nobody has a good time because nobody's playing with people at their skill levels.[/QUOTE] Might be a problem when it comes to partying up with friends who have all sorts of different play times. You also have those who will bitch and moan about it suppose to be "Casual" and introducing a means to place people together of similar skill would be pushing it. Then again that argument is shit and should probably be killed off anyway honestly. Probably best to introduce it, but let it be more lenient then what you'd expect from a more competitive format? I will admit though, while I do have to try a bit harder now. I still can do well even when I half ass a good chunk of the game. As long though as I can experiment and try new things I guess, which is a lot easier in casual when you know if it fails it won't be the end of the world for your team.

[QUOTE=Chuggoth;52595293]And that's why we need either balanced matchmaking or rank restricted servers.[/QUOTE] Casual player base is relatively small, the only way I could see that working would be to separate players by every 50 ranks into separate servers.

[QUOTE=Chuggoth;52595293]And that's why we need either balanced matchmaking or rank restricted servers.[/QUOTE] Dividing the player base even further with rank based servers is a monumentally bad idea. Pitting noobs against other new players in a potato fest where nobody caps and everyone congas in spawn while building on last is bad for the game. And there's already a place where 4000 hour players fight each other in a serious contest to the death, and it's called the high end of UGC (or your regional tournament host). A better idea, would be to match players into a mix of skill levels in casual, where even though new ones might get stomped by more experienced ones, there will be enough strong players on each team to both provide an examples, and give a fair fight to everyone. Unless of course you think players should be barred from the flagship game experience for reaching too high of a level.

both suggestion need a casual ranking system, whether you want all players to be around the same level of skill or you want 4 good players, 4 average players and 4 noobs on each team due to the player numbers on casual not being high enough, it would be better for the system to prefer to match everyone around the same skill on the same server, if not enough players are searching then you add diversity, with the goal of all matches being balanced and no rolls happening and not making it 12v12 competitive, this should satisfy all needs. and ffs add stopwatch back already edit: also adding to this, a few days ago I was playing really late in the night and I got a great game with everyone trying their best, I noticed someone in chat saying "I shouldn't have tried to play this late at night, that's when all the tryhards are on" without going through this, he does have a point, he's not enjoying the game and he does probably prefer to play against people around his skill now even for one of you, if you're not a comp guy, try going on tf2 center and join a 6v6 lobby, play medic for example, you'll get headshot, backstabbed, market gardened and lose 5 round in a row, if your team is really nice they'll just be laughing and won't shittalk you, is this enjoyable to you?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52595379]Dividing the player base even further with rank based servers is a monumentally bad idea. Pitting noobs against other new players in a potato fest where nobody caps and everyone congas in spawn while building on last is bad for the game. And there's already a place where 4000 hour players fight each other in a serious contest to the death, and it's called the high end of UGC (or your regional tournament host). A better idea, would be to match players into a mix of skill levels in casual, where even though new ones might get stomped by more experienced ones, there will be enough strong players on each team to both provide an examples, and give a fair fight to everyone. Unless of course you think players should be barred from the flagship game experience for reaching too high of a level.[/QUOTE] A 4000 hour player shouldn't have to take part in a tournament to play against competent players. Mixing a team with new babies and strong players sounds good on paper but falls flat on execution, your golden example for that is the largely criticized TF2 competitive mode. What happens if that both parties basically play a different game, and both parties aren't enjoying any of it. I played tf2 competitive with a few pals of mine as a three-stack, and boy, we were basically the only ones playing. The rest of the three would run in, probably die, or stare at map props. The enemy team had the same thing. These are two different universes, and you can't clash those together. Putting 2 hackers and 4 normal players vs. 2 hackers and 4 normal players might even out but the 8 normal players sure as hell ain't enjoying any of it. Last week I offered a friend of mine who never played an FPS before in his life to play TF2 with me - that's the moment I realized how many of the things we take for granted are ever so far away the truth. You know the Engineer that just kinda stares at a wall, standing still? That's someone's first FPS. These guys first have to soak up the information on the screen to get going. Every mechanic that is happening first has to be learned. And in the same server as this guy, on the enemy team, was someone from some high end Highlander team. People don't praise Overwatch just because it's easier to learn or something, people also play it because the game makes an effort to be a good first shooter and teach you all of the mechanics, while at the same time putting you in a server full of babies of your tier, instead of a mixed server where the enemy team has a few gods that swipe you away with no thought involved.

How would you sort players of different skill at this point? Badge ranks are more a measure of time then anything, it's an inevitability seeing as how anyone who just plays the game will reach max rank. unless they un-casualize casual I don't see how you can successful mix both new and skilled players. A proper ranking system would have to be developed.

so a long dead server, the Snack Shack, recently when back up [video=youtube;93EIimyHHCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93EIimyHHCY[/video] i missed fucking stupid servers like this, it's a little slice of 2010

I remember that map from UT99! Uncle gave me a copy of that game and it's where I "got gud" at fps shooters. Are there any arena shooter gamemodes for tf2?

[QUOTE=slapdown3;52595453]How would you sort players of different skill at this point? Badge ranks are more a measure of time then anything, it's an inevitability seeing as how anyone who just plays the game will reach max rank. unless they un-casualize casual I don't see how you can successful mix both new and skilled players. A proper ranking system would have to be developed.[/QUOTE] if they're developing a proper elo system for comp they can fairly easily modify it to be suitable for casual

[QUOTE=dx9er;52595489]One way you can get better in a game is to play against players who are better than you.[/QUOTE] maybe, but playing against someone who played the game 100x the time you played while you're still trying to figure out how the game works is neither fun nor will it get you better at the game. if you're only playing against people around your skill, some slightly better than you, some slightly worse might not get you better at the game nearly as fast as sticking to an mge server all day, but as you learn the game and your rank gets better, you face people who are more skilled is a sure way to both have fun and get better at the game.

[QUOTE=dx9er;52595489]One way you can get better in a game is to play against players who are better than you.[/QUOTE] While this is true, playing against people better then you generally does help understand how to better play yourself. You do still want to attempt to keep the skill gap between a newer player and older one relatively close. If they get obliterated regularly and without any good warning they may not have the time needed to understand what actually happened or what they could do to improve upon themselves. Not to mention it'd probably just be fairly frustrating to die super quick over and over again.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52595449]A 4000 hour player shouldn't have to take part in a tournament to play against competent players. Mixing a team with new babies and strong players sounds good on paper but falls flat on execution, your golden example for that is the largely criticized TF2 competitive mode. What happens if that both parties basically play a different game, and both parties aren't enjoying any of it. I played tf2 competitive with a few pals of mine as a three-stack, and boy, we were basically the only ones playing. The rest of the three would run in, probably die, or stare at map props. The enemy team had the same thing. These are two different universes, and you can't clash those together. Putting 2 hackers and 4 normal players vs. 2 hackers and 4 normal players might even out but the 8 normal players sure as hell ain't enjoying any of it. Last week I offered a friend of mine who never played an FPS before in his life to play TF2 with me - that's the moment I realized how many of the things we take for granted are ever so far away the truth. You know the Engineer that just kinda stares at a wall, standing still? That's someone's first FPS. These guys first have to soak up the information on the screen to get going. Every mechanic that is happening first has to be learned. And in the same server as this guy, on the enemy team, was someone from some high end Highlander team. People don't praise Overwatch just because it's easier to learn or something, people also play it because the game makes an effort to be a good first shooter and teach you all of the mechanics, while at the same time putting you in a server full of babies of your tier, instead of a mixed server where the enemy team has a few gods that swipe you away with no thought involved.[/QUOTE] Did you read into what i said? The skill mix was the old community server experience if you remember that. Servers that had an experienced cast of regulars and traffic of quickly noobs to round it out, who eventually become those skilled regulars after learning what to, and not to do by experience. These have been the old ways, and they built TF2 into what it is now. Add an actual tutorial on gameplay to that as opposed to the four-class weapon demonstration we have now, and the game will live on forever with a healthy skill progression vs the ridiculous plateau we have now. Tournaments are not the only places for competent veterans. You know that, and thats straw. I mentioned the top end because its a tryhard mode where you'll find *only* veterans and good players, as compared to casual. Valve competitive is another straw dummy to attack; it failed because it was released unfinished, no different than the beta without weapon/class bans or the rebalances that would have made white listing them unnecessary. It doesn't matter how well you skill index competitive, if there's no control over unbalanced elements, you've got something no different than casual and no reason to play it. Also overwatch's noob-only matches work because everything your hero can possibly do is right in front of you. It's not a terribly hard game to learn by yourself, with no examples to observe or maneuvers/tactics to see put to use. Compare that to TF2, where the class's power isn't readily available to you via buttons, you're going to have to learn how to use it by seeing other people doing so.

[QUOTE=_charon;52595454]so a long dead server, the Snack Shack, recently when back up [video=youtube;93EIimyHHCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93EIimyHHCY[/video] i missed fucking stupid servers like this, it's a little slice of 2010[/QUOTE] Holy heck that place is non-dead again? Might have to try and get on there again sometime.

[QUOTE=Oizen;52593937]Valve doesnt really look to tf2 for money.[/QUOTE] No clue why this is getting dumbs or disagrees. Valve doesn't look to [B]any[/B] of their games for money. They have steam, which is an infinite money engine, and Dota 2 is constantly pulling in ambient revenue no matter what due to tournaments, and CSGO makes enough money daily through all their past case releases that it probably eclipses and supersedes tf2 daily.

Is it me or downloading a new map from a server takes a lot more time than downloading it from a website? When a server simply changes map with a new one it often seems it's taking ages. Probably it is just me, but it is also really frustrating to see a small semi-static bar without any numbers on the bottom right corner of the screen while downloading.

[QUOTE=_charon;52595454]so a long dead server, the Snack Shack, recently when back up [video=youtube;93EIimyHHCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93EIimyHHCY[/video] i missed fucking stupid servers like this, it's a little slice of 2010[/QUOTE] Redsun, LazyPurple's, Dispens0r's ect, they never really went away.