TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

[QUOTE=Thatrandomuser;52595664]No clue why this is getting dumbs or disagrees. Valve doesn't look to [B]any[/B] of their games for money. They have steam, which is an infinite money engine, and Dota 2 is constantly pulling in ambient revenue no matter what due to tournaments, and CSGO makes enough money daily through all their past case releases that it probably eclipses and supersedes tf2 daily.[/QUOTE] It's not like Valve updates TF2 out of the kindness of their hearts. Even before the Mann Co store and the economy they sold TF2, and the reason that they took the game F2P is because the game [URL="http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-08-valve-team-fortress-2-f2p-switch-a-resounding-success"]made 4 times more money from the Mann Co store than sales of the game itself (after switching to F2P they were earning 12x more revenue than selling the game itself) [/URL]. TF2 doesn't make as much money as DOTA2 or CSGO but it was [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/sale/2016_top_sellers/"]still among the top 24 revenue earning Steam games in 2016.[/URL]

[QUOTE=cidra;52595752]Is it me or downloading a new map from a server takes a lot more time than downloading it from a website? When a server simply changes map with a new one it often seems it's taking ages. Probably it is just me, but it is also really frustrating to see a small semi-static bar without any numbers on the bottom right corner of the screen while downloading.[/QUOTE] if the server doesn't have a fast download url set, the download speed is limited, usually to a pretty bad speed, also you might be having some problems with the fast download url itself, I've been getting a really slow speed with tf2maps server lately

hm. So, on my current pc I have this problem where I have to Exit the server (whether it's a community or casual one) to load the next map and I don't know whats causing it at all. It works as normal on my laptop, so its very wierd.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52595449]A 4000 hour player shouldn't have to take part in a tournament to play against competent players. Mixing a team with new babies and strong players sounds good on paper but falls flat on execution, your golden example for that is the largely criticized TF2 competitive mode. What happens if that both parties basically play a different game, and both parties aren't enjoying any of it. I played tf2 competitive with a few pals of mine as a three-stack, and boy, we were basically the only ones playing. The rest of the three would run in, probably die, or stare at map props. The enemy team had the same thing. These are two different universes, and you can't clash those together. Putting 2 hackers and 4 normal players vs. 2 hackers and 4 normal players might even out but the 8 normal players sure as hell ain't enjoying any of it. Last week I offered a friend of mine who never played an FPS before in his life to play TF2 with me - that's the moment I realized how many of the things we take for granted are ever so far away the truth. You know the Engineer that just kinda stares at a wall, standing still? That's someone's first FPS. These guys first have to soak up the information on the screen to get going. Every mechanic that is happening first has to be learned. And in the same server as this guy, on the enemy team, was someone from some high end Highlander team. People don't praise Overwatch just because it's easier to learn or something, people also play it because the game makes an effort to be a good first shooter and teach you all of the mechanics, while at the same time putting you in a server full of babies of your tier, instead of a mixed server where the enemy team has a few gods that swipe you away with no thought involved.[/QUOTE] Hmm, I know this is subjective and all but, what do you think makes [I]Overwatch[/I] a [I]good[/I] FPS? To me, [I]Overwatch[/I] encapsulates everything that weapons like the Vaccinator and Sandman represent--extremely tedious and aggravating design. That and the aforementioned skill compression caused by characters [I]mostly[/I] lacking mechanical nuance makes [I]Overwatch[/I] what I would consider to be a rather poor representation of the genre. [I]Overwatch[/I] is incontrovertibly friendlier to new players than TF2, but that isn't merely because of its tutorial and informative UI--the game itself is easier. Now before anyone comes springing to [i]Overwatch's[/i] defense, I would also like to point out that TF2 is by no means perfect either. [i]Team Fortress 2[/i] is encumbered by discordant design, fundamentally imbalanced and sometimes unfocused class roles, awkward lag compensation, and a developer infamous for not only slow churn, but scatterbrained decision making. As for skill matching, while I realize that it wasn't present due to limitations in technology and/or wasn't yet thought of in earlier games, I still maintain that they were better off for it. While not without blemishes themselves, community servers have more benefits than drawbacks in comparison to the oft complained about automated matching algorithms of today. I never once saw anyone question or criticize the server systems ubiquitous to PC gaming for years, but I witness discontent over the accuracy and efficiency of matching/queue systems in almost every contemporary game that uses it.

Well in addition to having the training mode that's a little more polished than TF2's and not as hidden away, Overwatch just has less things for new players to worry about. Sure, every character has their own ultimates and stuff you have to learn, but extremely simple stuff like ammo and fall damage is absent, not to mention that you don't have to worry about Pharah pulling out a beggars bazooka or anything, you always know exactly what to expect from your enemies' kits. Of course Blizzard kind of shits on that by over-buffing or nerfing characters into the ground every other week.

I wouldn't touch casual if comp was even slightly good. [editline]21st August 2017[/editline] Comp would probably be a lot more popular if they added map selection like in casual. And they have to give us the option to votekick, when I played comp I ran in to cheaters more often than not.

[QUOTE=Chuggoth;52596174]Comp is good. There's just no point in playing it. When searching for a game there's a 70% chance to roll the dice for afk/cheaters/"Player has abandoned the game" or people that have absolutely no idea how to play the game. Low population, absence of any rewards, long search times and that shitty boring menu don't make for such an enjoyable experience.[/QUOTE] "Comp is good but also here's why its not good:"

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52595379] A better idea, would be to match players into a mix of skill levels in casual, where even though new ones might get stomped by more experienced ones, there will be enough strong players on each team to both provide an examples, and give a fair fight to everyone. Unless of course you think players should be barred from the flagship game experience for reaching too high of a level.[/QUOTE] The game does try to do that now, if you watch the scoreboard in a casual game you typically have 2-3 red badges on each team, 2-3 purple badges on each team and the rest filled out with light and darker blue badges. It does seem to try and put an equal number of people with higher amounts of XP on each team. The problem of course is that XP doesn't really represent how good you are at the game, just how much you play it. I just played a game a little bit ago that had basically a perfect balance of higher XP players and lower XP players despite the early morning hours and no doubt small current North America player base, but my team was just way more skilled than the other team. Hopefully they'll add some sort of hidden ELO to casual when the Pyro update hits to better balance games.

Does anyone know if there are any Parkour Fortress servers still out there which are still alive?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52595508]Did you read into what i said? The skill mix was the old community server experience if you remember that. Servers that had an experienced cast of regulars and traffic of quickly noobs to round it out, who eventually become those skilled regulars after learning what to, and not to do by experience. These have been the old ways, and they built TF2 into what it is now. Add an actual tutorial on gameplay to that as opposed to the four-class weapon demonstration we have now, and the game will live on forever with a healthy skill progression vs the ridiculous plateau we have now. Tournaments are not the only places for competent veterans. You know that, and thats straw. I mentioned the top end because its a tryhard mode where you'll find *only* veterans and good players, as compared to casual. Valve competitive is another straw dummy to attack; it failed because it was released unfinished, no different than the beta without weapon/class bans or the rebalances that would have made white listing them unnecessary. It doesn't matter how well you skill index competitive, if there's no control over unbalanced elements, you've got something no different than casual and no reason to play it. Also overwatch's noob-only matches work because everything your hero can possibly do is right in front of you. It's not a terribly hard game to learn by yourself, with no examples to observe or maneuvers/tactics to see put to use. Compare that to TF2, where the class's power isn't readily available to you via buttons, you're going to have to learn how to use it by seeing other people doing so.[/QUOTE] I used to primarily play on community servers, and I still do, even though the choice is very much more limited now. The Servers I used to play on + I am playing on right now used to have so many regulars, the new players would be an insane minority, so tiny that it wouldn't matter at all, like around 2-3 at max. I agree that an expanded Tutorial would very much help with this problem, too, however, tournaments kind of are the only way for high-end players to meet their match. Unless you get lucky, Casual matches are dominated by babies. Competitive is, right now, not in a usable state. So the only easy way to play against likewise skilled players is via tournaments. Compare that to Overwatch where you literally just have to press a button and it'll search for a good match for you. Attacking Valve Comp is hardly a straw, it's quite literally the concept you are suggesting. It could've been released with perfect class balance and weapon balance and you'd still end up with the "Two games at once" issue. OW "noob only" matches don't just work because of that. I know we all enjoy the good ol "Overwatch takes no skill at all? Dae?" circlejerk but there are still things to learn. The "Noob only" matches work because OW actually has a working MMR + has a lower teamsize. Given the 24 Player servers, it'll be a lot more difficult to find players of matching skill however right now we literally have nothing but stupid medals. [QUOTE=Lord Exor;52595909]Hmm, I know this is subjective and all but, what do you think makes [I]Overwatch[/I] a [I]good[/I] FPS? To me, [I]Overwatch[/I] encapsulates everything that weapons like the Vaccinator and Sandman represent--extremely tedious and aggravating design. That and the aforementioned skill compression caused by characters [I]mostly[/I] lacking mechanical nuance makes [I]Overwatch[/I] what I would consider to be a rather poor representation of the genre. [I]Overwatch[/I] is incontrovertibly friendlier to new players than TF2, but that isn't merely because of its tutorial and informative UI--the game itself is easier. Now before anyone comes springing to [i]Overwatch's[/i] defense, I would also like to point out that TF2 is by no means perfect either. [i]Team Fortress 2[/i] is encumbered by discordant design, fundamentally imbalanced and sometimes unfocused class roles, awkward lag compensation, and a developer infamous for not only slow churn, but scatterbrained decision making. As for skill matching, while I realize that it wasn't present due to limitations in technology and/or wasn't yet thought of in earlier games, I still maintain that they were better off for it. While not without blemishes themselves, community servers have more benefits than drawbacks in comparison to the oft complained about automated matching algorithms of today. I never once saw anyone question or criticize the server systems ubiquitous to PC gaming for years, but I witness discontent over the accuracy and efficiency of matching/queue systems in almost every contemporary game that uses it.[/QUOTE] Overwatch has flaws and upsides, you named some flaws. There is a reason OW only kept me for 1~ year while TF2 to this date has me excited over an Update that has been delayed for three months now. I'm just saying that from a system and polish perspective, TF2 could learn a lot. Convenience rules all. Community Server based matchmaking is not convenient. Fucking hell I want Community Servers back as much as the other one. I miss GHQ so fucking much, but I'd rather have Valve make an option in the "Community Servers" tag in the main menu that's basically just old Quickplay that searches for good, "stock-ish" community servers, with options allowing you to extend it to custom gamemodes and the like, alongside with a tiny notice after reaching rank 20 or so in casual which basically tells you to step up your game and meet more advanced players in community servers. Thus you'd have a perfect (imo) System: Baby/extremely casual ground -> Current Casual Advanced players/Communities/custom stuff -> Community Servers Tryhard mania -> Valve competitive with Elo etc. [QUOTE=HoundFromHell;52596216]Does anyone know if there are any Parkour Fortress servers still out there which are still alive?[/QUOTE] To this date, SLAG gaming has one running. 66.150.121.42:27015 fairly populated, too.

[QUOTE=Creeps;52595873]hm. So, on my current pc I have this problem where I have to Exit the server (whether it's a community or casual one) to load the next map and I don't know whats causing it at all. It works as normal on my laptop, so its very wierd.[/QUOTE] Does anyone know a solution? I can't seem to find it on google.

[QUOTE=riki2cool;52591199]I miss having friends that play TF2[/QUOTE] can't tell you how much i miss shitty laptop lans my friends and i had years ago still have plenty of friends in the game, but that real life touch added something

[QUOTE=Creeps;52596493]Does anyone know a solution? I can't seem to find it on google.[/QUOTE] You should report it to the TFTeam and hope for a fix soon. (As long as that doesn't delay the Pyro Update, sigh)

I'm going to play devils advocate here since people like to use OW as their whipping boy and only really look at it from a surface level. I'm not terribly eloquent so bear with me here. [QUOTE] Overwatch's noob-only matches work because everything your hero can possibly do is right in front of you.[/QUOTE] Noob only matches work because it's a level playing field skill wise. Knowing what your character can do does not magically make you mechanically or tactically good with them. Ability management and coordination (How and when to use them) is a big part of the game.You also have to be mindful of the enemy and keep tabs on how they have been using their abilities too. TF2 has some of this management as well (Uber, edibles, banners). I'd also argue that everything your character can do IS right in front of you in TF2. Strip away the engine exploits and TF2 is mechanically pretty shallow. I'm not trying to offend anyone with this statement, Valve didn't patch them out and the community bit down hard. Now it's become such a big part of the game I feel like people get mad if you point it out. I played a metric fuck ton of Q3 and I would never lie to myself by saying strafe jumping wasn't an exploit. [QUOTE] It's not a terribly hard game to learn by yourself, with no examples to observe or maneuvers/tactics to see put to use.[/QUOTE] Neither is TF2, I did it, tons of people did. There are examples of maneuvers/tactics put to use, people just seem to disregard them in these comparison or don't know about them. For example, using Orisa's mini grav to lift an enemy Rein off the ground so your Rein can ult under his shield and hit everyone behind him. That isn't a tactic you simply know because you can see your abilities when you pick a character. You learn that tactic by either being creative and having good team work or seeing it being used. [QUOTE] Compare that to TF2, where the class's power isn't readily available to you via buttons, you're going to have to learn how to use it by seeing other people doing so.[/QUOTE] The classes power is readily available to you in both games (Once again not counting exploits) and in both games you need to learn by trial and error or observation. I keep reading statements like this with no examples given to back them up. How is learning Scout so much more difficult than learning to play Tracer? Yeah, tracer has some neat blink powers, but you need to learn how to use those effectively. If you blink predictably it's just as bad as a Scout who doubles predictably. With both characters you need know how to get in, be effective and get out. Proper flanking, positioning and pestering is important with both characters. You could argue that Tracer is harder to learn because you have to be mindful of her mobility cool downs which is something Scout doesn't have to worry about. [QUOTE]what do you think makes Overwatch a good FPS?[/QUOTE] The abilities and the great team play they can foster. When you have a really solid team you don't even need coms to make magic happen. You just read each others plays and work off them, it's great. Something I find a bit odd is how people always laud TF2s emphasis on teamwork, but then bash OW for it. Maybe because OW depends on a solid team more so than TF2 (the exception being serious TF2 comp) and a weak player can bring an entire team down. You can't really loan wolf it in OW either. Perhaps that reliance on the team makes people feel less empowered? I dunno, maybe I'm not as down on OW because I've been playing FPS games for ages and for me TF2 was baby's first FPS. Having come from Q3, Tf2 felt painfully slow and goofy, but I gave it a chance and fell in love. Imagine if I had done the same thing to TF2 that a lot of you are doing with OW. I'd have missed out on a lot of fun. If I had to pick OW biggest flaw it would be this. The game is FAR more enjoyable playing with people you know. Playing with random people ranges from magical to insufferable.

[QUOTE=Thatrandomuser;52595664]No clue why this is getting dumbs or disagrees. Valve doesn't look to [B]any[/B] of their games for money. They have steam, which is an infinite money engine, and Dota 2 is constantly pulling in ambient revenue no matter what due to tournaments, and CSGO makes enough money daily through all their past case releases that it probably eclipses and supersedes tf2 daily.[/QUOTE] So I guess they added $500 weapon skins only because it's a neat feature that will bring people to steam.

[video=youtube;9kbj89kwCcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbj89kwCcU[/video]

[QUOTE=Fluury;52596795][video=youtube;9kbj89kwCcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbj89kwCcU[/video][/QUOTE] When the update does drop I really hope it delivers. Not for my own sake but for the community at large. There is a LOT of unrest right now.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52595449] Mixing a team with new babies and strong players sounds good on paper but falls flat on execution, your golden example for that is the largely criticized TF2 competitive mode. [/QUOTE] Everyone has to start somewhere but for whatever reason Valve likes to ignore the idea of creating a mandatory-of-the-sorts tutorial. I honestly don't blame them though considering at the time of Teamfortress 2's release, the targeted audience had more than likely played Team Fortress Classic, and the Half Life titles. Same/earlier engine, no [I]significant[/I] instructions required. (EDIT: I thought I might add that perhaps Valve seems to think most people have played their previous titles, perhaps specifically [I]Half-Life[/I] that has the Black Mesa Hazard Course teaching players just about everything you could think of movement wise apart from surf/rocket jumping.) Team Fortress 2 started with a list of dedicated servers, none of which were officially hosted by Valve until later. At this point the only way you could play the game with others was to explore the various servers listed. If it didn't suit your skill-level you simply left to find another server. And keep in mind, when most people connect to a server, they gauge this based on if they are having fun or not. Some players enjoy capturing points. Others enjoy keeping their K/D's high. What I hate about match-making systems is that they force players into scenarios. It's anything but natural and causes a more stressful, unlikable experience. Having to wait for a system to put you into a server, only to find out some of the people on your team are [I]fresh out of the download[/I] isn't always amusing. Match-making systems can't appeal to trends in the way community servers can. In the end though, I believe it all falls on the future proofing... Or lack thereof... Why the game went Free To Play without taking into consideration that it'd become the first FPS 90% of the new joiners will have ever played is beyond me. [QUOTE] People don't praise Overwatch just because it's easier to learn or something, people also play it because the game makes an effort to be a good first shooter and teach you all of the mechanics, while at the same time putting you in a server full of babies of your tier, instead of a mixed server where the enemy team has a few gods that swipe you away with no thought involved. [/QUOTE] I'll hand it to Blizzard for making an effort to teach players how to play their game, but when each "hero" can only do 4 things... It's not hard to pick up. What makes Team Fortress 2 so highly appealing to me is its complex movement. Sure, WASD to walk... But you can learn to do longer, higher jumps with something like combining Crouch and Jump. You can then abuse air dynamics and SURF on ramps. C-Tapping, a step above a crouch jump... The skill ceiling for movement alone is incredibly high. There's absolutely none of that in Overwatch which makes it feel horribly stale and limited. You're on a more level playing ground almost immediately in Overwatch. But where's the fun in that? Is it really that hard to spend some time to learn and explore something?

[QUOTE=Fluury;52596795][video=youtube;9kbj89kwCcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbj89kwCcU[/video][/QUOTE] They misspelled "excited"

[QUOTE]There's absolutely none of that in Overwatch which makes it feel horribly stale and limited. You're on a more level playing ground almost immediately in Overwatch. But where's the fun in that? Is it really that hard to spend some time to learn and explore something?[/QUOTE] Mobility and exploits are the thing people constantly use as an argument against OW. The fun in OW isn't finding ways to abuse the engine, it's in finding ways to play creatively as a team with the tools you are given. That's what you are taking the time to learn and explore. Strategies, combos and techs. how can I leverage these abilities and work with my team to do something unexpected and throw the enemy off their game. Who do I work well with, how does our play compliment each other? This is not meant as an insult but I think it applies here "If you're bored, then you're boring". I think the people who tire of Overwatch quickly are looking at the abilities from a shallow perspective and only from the mindset of "This is what I can do", instead of "if we mix X and Y we can do some amazing stuff". Get a little more cerebral with the game and it becomes much more enjoyable. Play it at it's surface level and yes, you will tire of it quickly. Once again I will say this game is far more enjoyable with friends. Get a group of people you enjoy playing with and get creative with what ya got.

[QUOTE=Chuggoth;52596971]Pyro Update will never come out "tomorrow". You wake up, check the blog, check the forums then draw a conclusion. You can expect it coming soon, but turning "tonight is the night" into a mantra is pure masochism.[/QUOTE] "Tonight is not the night" or "The end is never the end" or "Valve please already" or "Exam periods are about to begin and schools soon after" or *crying*

Enough devils advocate from me, back to the update. As unlikely as it is I would very much like some of the workshop weapons models to get some love, even as re-skins. Way to much brilliant work just wasting away there. I'm talking for classes other than pyro too, just spread that love around.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52596795][video=youtube;9kbj89kwCcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbj89kwCcU[/video][/QUOTE] why is there a hammer there

[QUOTE=Fluury;52596795][video=youtube;9kbj89kwCcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbj89kwCcU[/video][/QUOTE] One day, he is gonna look up at the wall, or someone is gonna watch the video, and it'll be true

I'd love some more MvM, special delivery, and good-old fashioned CTF maps (that aren't just reskins of other maps, mind) but I know they won't happen even with the jungle theme providing more exciting and deadly ways to trip up and screw over the enemy team, or robots (or your team, if you're a massive asshole).

For those interested in the 72hr Jam hosted earlier this month, [url=https://tf2maps.net/threads/the-summer-2017-72-hour-tf2-jam-showcase.34435/][b]the Showcase for it is now live![/b][/url]

[QUOTE=Void Skull;52597270]For those interested in the 72hr Jam hosted earlier this month, [url=https://tf2maps.net/threads/the-summer-2017-72-hour-tf2-jam-showcase.34435/][b]the Showcase for it is now live![/b][/url][/QUOTE] This is my favorite part of the TF2 community. The creators and all the crazy cool shit they make, and the organizers who use the game they love to do good.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52597022]Mobility and exploits are the thing people constantly use as an argument against OW. The fun in OW isn't finding ways to abuse the engine, it's in finding ways to play creatively as a team with the tools you are given. That's what you are taking the time to learn and explore. Strategies, combos and techs. how can I leverage these abilities and work with my team to do something unexpected and throw the enemy off their game. Who do I work well with, how does our play compliment each other? This is not meant as an insult but I think it applies here "If you're bored, then you're boring". I think the people who tire of Overwatch quickly are looking at the abilities from a shallow perspective and only from the mindset of "This is what I can do", instead of "if we mix X and Y we can do some amazing stuff". Get a little more cerebral with the game and it becomes much more enjoyable. Play it at it's surface level and yes, you will tire of it quickly. Once again I will say this game is far more enjoyable with friends. Get a group of people you enjoy playing with and get creative with what ya got.[/QUOTE] That sounds awfully more like a MOBA than an FPS, and this issue is compounded by the game's absurdly generous hitboxes. Compare getting headshots with the Ambassador to getting headshots with McCree; McCree can aim a solid foot away from the head model of his target and still score a hit.

Holy shit guys it's the pyro update! [url]http://steamgames.com/tf2/pyro/[/url] This is some real shit [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - Reagy))[/highlight]

Valve doesn't even title their update websites with "steamgames/tf2/" anymore. Bad attempt.