TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

Dunno if this is worth talking about here since it's not related to the Pyro update, but it looks like KritzKast made their own weapon re-skins. [t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/852724159530664235/96D05876ED668B4B396290DE07856B3235F94968/[/t]

One my friend's was mentioned on 72-hour jam showcase! I'm sharing her nice piece of art [IMG]https://tf2maps.net/attachments/pyro-tf2-jam-png.58794/[/IMG]

[QUOTE=EmilyVasquez;52598133]Dunno if this is worth talking about here since it's not related to the Pyro update, but it looks like KritzKast made their own weapon re-skins. [t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/852724159530664235/96D05876ED668B4B396290DE07856B3235F94968/[/t][/QUOTE] Yea, they've been on the Workshop for a while. For those interested, all of them should be in Agro's Workshop submissions. [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/Schmoo/myworkshopfiles/?appid=440&p=1[/url]

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52597849]That sounds awfully more like a MOBA than an FPS, and this issue is compounded by the game's absurdly generous hitboxes. Compare getting headshots with the Ambassador to getting headshots with McCree; McCree can aim a solid foot away from the head model of his target and still score a hit.[/QUOTE] Sounds a lot like a FPS with MOBA elements to me. Those crazy hit boxes were given a drastic overhaul a long time ago, for both hit scan and Projectile weapons. Head hit boxes are now MUCH tighter to the model and only have a slight forgiveness on the vertical axis. The hit boxes on projectiles themselves were also drastically decreased in size and use the same hit boxes to register as hit scan weapons. That means no giant shipping container sized hit boxes for projectiles like TF2. I mean in OW you actually need to hit the enemy with a projectile. No points for hitting some cross sectioned pocket of air near them. With the problems TF2 has regarding hit boxes (especially the generous fudge factor with projectiles) I'm surprised you would even mention that. This is what I was talking about when i said people rip on the game without knowing what is going on in it. That hit box issue was not well loved by the community and pretty quickly corrected by Blizzard. EDIT: what is there to disagree about? These are demonstrable changes and comparisons, not my opinions.

[QUOTE=EmilyVasquez;52598133]Dunno if this is worth talking about here since it's not related to the Pyro update, but it looks like KritzKast made their own weapon re-skins. [t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/852724159530664235/96D05876ED668B4B396290DE07856B3235F94968/[/t][/QUOTE] Bllleeaaargh. Orange on white like that... Ugh. Don't get me wrong, skins for teams or TF2 communities would be cool, and kritzkast is awesome, but that orange on stark white is just.. *shudders*. Just look at how jarring it is compared to the colors used in the map behind it.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52598182]Sounds a lot like a FPS with MOBA elements to me. Those crazy hit boxes were given a drastic overhaul a long time ago, for both hit scan and Projectile weapons. Head hit boxes are now MUCH tighter to the model and only have a slight forgiveness on the vertical axis. The hit boxes on projectiles themselves were also drastically decreased in size and use the same hit boxes to register as hit scan weapons. That means no giant shipping container sized hit boxes for projectiles like TF2. I mean in OW you actually need to hit the enemy with a projectile. No points for hitting some cross sectioned pocket of air near them. With the problems TF2 has regarding hit boxes (especially the generous fudge factor with projectiles) I'm surprised you would even mention that. This is what I was talking about when i said people rip on the game without knowing what is going on in it. That hit box issue was not well loved by the community and pretty quickly corrected by Blizzard. EDIT: what is there to disagree about? These are demonstrable changes and comparisons, not my opinions.[/QUOTE] OW hitboxes are a joke for a 2016 game Not even a good joke either

[QUOTE=Petachepas;52598291]OW hitboxes are a joke for a 2016 game Not even a good joke either[/QUOTE] Did you not read the part about the overhaul? They were indeed a joke, they were also fixed. EDIT: I'm starting to wonder how much time these recently announced case adjustments are going to add to the wait for the update. If it were purely an internal thing I would imagine they could get it done fairly quickly. The fact that they opened it up to player feedback makes me think this might take a while though.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52598317]Did you not read the part about the overhaul? They were indeed a joke, they were also fixed. EDIT: I'm starting to wonder how much time these recently announced case adjustments are going to add to the wait for the update. If it were purely an internal thing I would imagine they could get it done fairly quickly. The fact that they opened it up to player feedback makes me think this might take a while though.[/QUOTE] Maybe we get a better "case ui" like the cs go one where were everything is neatly shown what you can get.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52598182]Sounds a lot like a FPS with MOBA elements to me. Those crazy hit boxes were given a drastic overhaul a long time ago, for both hit scan and Projectile weapons. Head hit boxes are now MUCH tighter to the model and only have a slight forgiveness on the vertical axis. The hit boxes on projectiles themselves were also drastically decreased in size and use the same hit boxes to register as hit scan weapons. That means no giant shipping container sized hit boxes for projectiles like TF2. I mean in OW you actually need to hit the enemy with a projectile. No points for hitting some cross sectioned pocket of air near them. With the problems TF2 has regarding hit boxes (especially the generous fudge factor with projectiles) I'm surprised you would even mention that. This is what I was talking about when i said people rip on the game without knowing what is going on in it. That hit box issue was not well loved by the community and pretty quickly corrected by Blizzard. EDIT: what is there to disagree about? These are demonstrable changes and comparisons, not my opinions.[/QUOTE] Then I suppose it's a good game if you enjoy MOBAs. I on the other hand will be sitting here in a lonely corner with underappreciated TF2 and [i]LawBreakers[/i].

[QUOTE=Doodle966;52598420]Maybe we get a better "case ui" like the cs go one where were everything is neatly shown what you can get.[/QUOTE] That'd be nice. I kinda dig the idea of bonus goodies too. Seems like some people are worried it will screw with trade but I've never been into that. [editline]21st August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Lord Exor;52598426]Then I suppose it's a good game if you enjoy MOBAs. I on the other hand will be sitting here in a lonely corner with underappreciated TF2 and [i]LawBreakers[/i].[/QUOTE] I don't enjoy MOBAs though, I kinda hate them, and I really enjoy OW. I also love TF2 and I'm sad to see it kinda languish like it has.

[QUOTE=bananaslamma;52596130]I wouldn't touch casual if comp was even slightly good. [editline]21st August 2017[/editline] Comp would probably be a lot more popular if they added map selection like in casual. And they have to give us the option to votekick, when I played comp I ran in to cheaters more often than not.[/QUOTE] The problem's that nobody's playing. A lot of players don't have a phone number associated with their account and even more of them are F2Ps. There needs to be like an option for players to unlock Comp. once they're level 50 or something.

[QUOTE=Drag0600;52598437]The problem's that nobody's playing. A lot of players don't have a phone number associated with their account and even more of them are F2Ps. There needs to be like an option for players to unlock Comp. once they're level 50 or something.[/QUOTE] I'd agree but this makes it easier for cheaters to gain access to comp with garbage accounts. The walls might be inconvenient but they are there for a reason.

If valve were to explain to players why competitive has the paying and phone number aspect to it in-game it might make it people appreciate it more and not so alienated by it.

So I was thinking, while it is clear that the support classes are much worse off with random crits enabled, but which classes actually benefit? Made a poll to share around: [url]https://strawpoll.com/e8kwcrhr[/url]

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52597022]Mobility and exploits are the thing people constantly use as an argument against OW. The fun in OW isn't finding ways to abuse the engine, it's in finding ways to play creatively as a team with the tools you are given. [/quote] Correct me if I'm wrong but crouch jumping was not originally intended to be apart of the engine. Despite this it became widely accepted by both the DEV's and players. I'm pretty sure this is proven by Valve's level design, especially when it comes to the Half Life series. Parts of the map were strictly accessible only by crouch jumping into a vent or over a box/ledge slightly taller than the default jump height. Surfing could definitely be seen as an exploit, but it doesn't mean its impossible to surf on Overwatch. There's just so few opportunities based on their level-design to do such. Considering the game isn't very Mod friendly I don't expect anything unique to come out of it, especially from the community end of things. Valve isn't the only company out there with movement exploits that made the game "more interesting" and [i]jumped[/i] the skill ceiling. Valve's just the only company that stuck with it. Take for example EA's Battlefield 1942/2. [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_snSNg7MPE][b]Dolphin Diving[/b][/url]. Or Call of Duty United Offensive, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JARN8pabemc][b]Explosive/Strafe Jumping & Map "Glitches."[/b][/url] (I apologize in advanced for the CoD vid. Can't find a showcase with... More agreeable music.) Some of these map locations are definitely bound for abuse while others completely harmless and easy to counter. In the end, I still find myself coming back to Team Fortress 2 because of it's movement. At this point the battlefield series has been reduced to "press space near wall to mount." ... While that's not necessarily bad it certainly takes the fun out of getting over something in your way while in a rush. Likewise with the later Call of Duty games. [QUOTE] That's what you are taking the time to learn and explore. Strategies, combos and techs. how can I leverage these abilities and work with my team to do something unexpected and throw the enemy off their game. Who do I work well with, how does our play compliment each other? [/QUOTE] I'll comeback with a simple question... Why can't we have both aspects to learn? The complexities in the game leave for plenty of information to soak up and will easily keep those who enjoy practice and learning playing the game. After a month of playing OW competitively on a near daily basis I got sick of it. In that time-span several classes I had taken an interest in and put hours into were severely nerf'd / changed. Looking back at OW, heroes get re-balanced so frequently it almost felt silly trying to keep up with the changes while knowing it could be different the following month. (What are.. "techs"?) It came down to being outwitted by the enemy not because of their skill, but because of my outdated knowledge. (I love to learn new things about a game but if its at risk of being changed in the very near future once or even multiple times... That's where I draw the line. It gives the advantage to newer players who never practiced and developed habits for the "old" methods)

Just for the sake of brevity I will say this. Blizzard has chosen to patch out movement and other exploits so they don't have to balance around them. I think that is a smart if unpopular move. They already have enough balancing to worry about with the larger roster and abilities. Also I don't think it is bad to leave these kind of exploits in if a developer chooses too. I loved the advanced movement in the quake games. There are a few they haven't touched now that I think on it. Zarya has a particle cannon jump she can do, if you know how to use your momentum you can get more height from it. Same with 76's helix jump and Bastions cannon jump. [QUOTE] It came down to being outwitted by the enemy not because of their skill, but because of my outdated knowledge. (I love to learn new things about a game but if its at risk of being changed in the very near future once or even multiple times... That's where I draw the line. It gives the advantage to newer players who never practiced and developed habits for the "old" methods)[/QUOTE] I dunno, I like this aspect of the game. I like not settling into the same old strategies and being forced to adapt. This might not be the best analogy (especially since I don't watch football) but think of it like football plays. Coaches are always thinking up new plays so their team has something the other team doesn't expect. I can see outdated knowledge being a thing if you have been on break from the game, but if you play regular you should be up to date with new info as it rolls out.

Kinda shitty to just pass of movement techs as engine exploits, especially when a lot of them end up being accepted by developers (rocket jumping originally started as an unintended mechanic, and wavedashing in melee was kept because the devs liked it as a mechanic for better players to use) Also, this is implying that TF2 isn't capable of strategic plays, which isn't true.

[QUOTE=DrCactus;52598788]Kinda shitty to just pass of movement techs as engine exploits, especially when a lot of them end up being accepted by developers (rocket jumping originally started as an unintended mechanic, and wavedashing in melee was kept because the devs liked it as a mechanic for better players to use) Also, this is implying that TF2 isn't capable of strategic plays, which isn't true.[/QUOTE] But they are engine exploits, and I never said that is was a terrible thing. I also never implied that TF2 is not capable of strategic plays, I did however imply that OW has a heavier reliance on them. You can be a lone wolf in TF2, not so much in OW. You should notice I put in a lot of exceptions for comp TF2 when discussing team play. I feel like people are only reading bits and pieces of what I am saying. To be clear, nothing about engine exploits embraced by the dev and community are bad. I have enjoyed them myself in several games. What I've been trying to relay is that this is not where the appeal lies in OW. People looking for that will of course be disappointed. I find the game refreshing for it's heavy lean on team coordination and synergy.

[QUOTE=CoolJosh3k;52598534]So I was thinking, while it is clear that the support classes are much worse off with random crits enabled, but which classes actually benefit? Made a poll to share around: [url]https://strawpoll.com/e8kwcrhr[/url][/QUOTE] Is this even a question? The classes that benefit most from random crits are those that aren't exactly affected by the natural damage drop that comes with bullet spread. A crit shotgun from across the map is going to do 18 damage on average, hardly enough to kill anyone unless they're severely in the red. A crit rocket or sticky on the other hand will deal their full damage load indiscriminately with the only hopes of surviving that damage is to be at the very far edge of the splash radius. This isn't a matter of opinion, high damage volume and damage concentration together make for high crit rates with extremely potent results even on a grazing blow.

In my experience, TF2's core gameplay loop is way more enjoyable and Overwatch has an immensely deeper meta. TF2 shines in the moment to moment, Overwatch shines when you look at matches as a whole. That's why after months of not playing TF2 and believing Overwatch had replaced it for me, I'm back full-force in TF2. I can't really enjoy Overwatch when not in a 6stack with similarly skilled and communicative allies that I can theory craft and metagame with. In addition, players in TF2 (mostly pubs) can vastly change a game on their own, whereas in Overwatch this ability is greatly diminished. TF2 has a great technical skill ceiling allowing for such feats, whereas Overwatch has a higher tactical skill ceiling (mostly to do with how CooldownAndUltimateTracking interacts with every option you make) which if even one of the six players lacks, can spell defeat for the team. A TF2 player with high technical skill can brute force through his lack of tactical skill, because the crazy skill ceiling allows it. An Overwatch player with high tactical skill can take matches where he's technically out shined, because the are heroes to allow it. Both have their merits and both have their weakness. I despise and love both of them. I couldn't bear playing TF2 anymore so I gravitated to OW and now that I can't bear OW I'm back in TF2. A point which TF2 takes with no contest, is community. Blizzard is trying to foster it, but the game it too closely knit for it to work. TF2 has it's community knit in the game itself via cosmetics, weapons, maps, memes and (hopefully) balance changes. We have a massive animation community, celebrated yearly with the Saxxies. The three things the OW community has undeniably more than TF2's, are communication, streamers and porn. There are also some finer points, like the feeling of "self" with the mix-and-match Cosmetic loadouts of TF2 vs the set skins, the meta of infinite possibilities when fiddling with weapon loadouts vs the set hero kits. Most comparisons, even those of movement and community lead to the great divide. TF2 is freestyle hip-hop. You have the beat to guide you, but if you don't have experience you'll fuck up. As experience builds up and you get to know techniques and styles, you add them up to make your style and then riff on the beat, even bending it to its unintended extremes when you're skilled enough. No matter how many other rappers are in your crew or their individual skill, when your time to shine comes it's all up to you. Overwatch is classical orchestras. You have your sheet, your role, your predetermined techniques and abilities. By your own it's limiting and maybe hollow, but once you add the rest of the instruments it becomes whole and glorious. What it lacks in freedom it makes up in harmony and certainty. It demands everyone to be on point, for a single mistake can ruin the whole, but when that its functioning correctly, it's grandiose. One is a game turned e-sport. The other is a game built to become an e-sport.

Personally I reckon the Pyro gets the most out of random crits. It easy to suddenly get crits while burning a group of people, ensuring mass death and survival. Plus there is the ability to reflect those random crit rockets and nades.

[QUOTE=Petroklos;52598846]In my experience, TF2's core gameplay loop is way more enjoyable and Overwatch has an immensely deeper meta. TF2 shines in the moment to moment, Overwatch shines when you look at matches as a whole. That's why after months of not playing TF2 and believing Overwatch had replaced it for me, I'm back full-force in TF2. I can't really enjoy Overwatch when not in a 6stack with similarly skilled and communicative allies that I can theory craft and metagame with. In addition, players in TF2 (mostly pubs) can vastly change a game on their own, whereas in Overwatch this ability is greatly diminished. TF2 has a great technical skill ceiling allowing for such feats, whereas Overwatch has a higher tactical skill ceiling (mostly to do with how CooldownAndUltimateTracking interacts with every option you make) which if even one of the six players lacks, can spell defeat for the team. A TF2 player with high technical skill can brute force through his lack of tactical skill, because the crazy skill ceiling allows it. An Overwatch player with high tactical skill can take matches where he's technically out shined, because the are heroes to allow it. Both have their merits and both have their weakness. I despise and love both of them. I couldn't bear playing TF2 anymore so I gravitated to OW and now that I can't bear OW I'm back in TF2. A point which TF2 takes with no contest, is community. Blizzard is trying to foster it, but the game it too closely knit for it to work. TF2 has it's community knit in the game itself via cosmetics, weapons, maps, memes and (hopefully) balance changes. We have a massive animation community, celebrated yearly with the Saxxies. The three things the OW community has undeniably more than TF2's, are communication, streamers and porn. There are also some finer points, like the feeling of "self" with the mix-and-match Cosmetic loadouts of TF2 vs the set skins, the meta of infinite possibilities when fiddling with weapon loadouts vs the set hero kits. Most comparisons, even those of movement and community lead to the great divide. TF2 is freestyle hip-hop. You have the beat to guide you, but if you don't have experience you'll fuck up. As experience builds up and you get to know techniques and styles, you add them up to make your style and then riff on the beat, even bending it to its unintended extremes when you're skilled enough. No matter how many other rappers are in your crew or their individual skill, when your time to shine comes it's all up to you. Overwatch is classical orchestras. You have your sheet, your role, your predetermined techniques and abilities. By your own it's limiting and maybe hollow, but once you add the rest of the instruments it becomes whole and glorious. What it lacks in freedom it makes up in harmony and certainty. It demands everyone to be on point, for a single mistake can ruin the whole, but when that its functioning correctly, it's grandiose. One is a game turned e-sport. The other is a game built to become an e-sport.[/QUOTE] This dude gets it. :) Better said than I believe I could have.

air strafing is an intended movement mechanic, also rocket jumping was an exploit originally, but after everyone knew about it the devs liked it and allowed it to stay, Soldier in TF2 is balanced around it, being the third iteration of the game, it's very normal to say rocket jumping is a core mechanic of Soldier, regardless that the ability originated as an unintended mechanic. like, somewhat similarly, disguising was an exploit at first, but can you say that playing spy now is just abusing engine exploits?

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52598906]like, somewhat similarly, disguising was an exploit at first, but can you say that playing spy now is just abusing engine exploits?[/QUOTE] well [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgsYbk1C8Vo[/media] yes

[QUOTE=Petroklos;52598846]One is a game turned e-sport. The other is a game built to become an e-sport.[/QUOTE] There are games that are built to become e-sport that are interesting to watch, Overwatch straight up fails at that. Even disregarding every single other thing.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52598906] disguising was an exploit at first, but can you say that playing spy now is just abusing engine exploits?[/QUOTE] Disguising? No, I never would, especially since the game shipped with it as an intended mechanic. I said before I used to play lots of Quake, especially Quake 3, and yes i would say strafe jumping was abusing an exploit. It was cool as fuck and everyone embraced it, so all good, but saying otherwise would be a lie. Once again, I have no problem with advanced movement mechanics. I don't know how many ways I can say this. Regardless I think Petroklos summed up perfectly why I enjoy both games and what people should expect from both experiences. I don't think I need to play devils advocate anymore and can go back to lurking and the occasional speculation on the update. This little back and forth also turned me onto a new game I plan to check out, Law Breakers. Thanks Exor.

as a MOBA player, I don't like Overwatch, either let me tell you what MOBAs do right, to me; they have an excellent mix of moment-to-moment action and long-term strategy, combined into self-contained multiplayer matches with a real sense of competition, individual strength, teamwork, and a high amount of skill depth. It feels rewarding to do things right in a good MOBA, and while it may not have the direct control feedback of an FPS, they have their own intricate layers of techniques, as well. Overwatch doesn't have real skill depth past 'aim', and it barely feels like it has any tactical depth outside of the highest levels of play, because the hero balance swings extremely out of whack into creating suffocating metas. As an individual, unless you're playing one of a few heroes (a DPS that's doing well or a healer, mostly) you don't feel like you have much to contribute. Sure, the sense of teamwork is there, but I don't enjoy it enough as an individual and in the moment-to-moment to get things down, let alone the issue of not feeling particularly rewarding to play and not having anything interesting going on with the main mechanical loop. Even with all of that, it's still a polished game, and it might just be playable in short bursts, for me, but it still falls apart because of even more factors. As I said before, the balance tends to always be dog-shit, while just swinging around the composition of the turd. I don't really mind toxicity in the 'guy being a dickhead' sense, but I do mind it when six complete human players are needed to actually get anything done, and 9 times out of 10, unless I'm with friends (which I'm mostly not, because most if not all of my main gaming friends play League of Legends and PUBG near-exclusively), I'm going to get at least one guy who barely qualifies as a human being.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52598920]Disguising? No, I never would, especially since the game shipped with it as an intended mechanic. I said before I used to play lots of Quake, especially Quake 3, and yes i would say strafe jumping was abusing an exploit. It was cool as fuck and everyone embraced it, so all good, but saying otherwise would be a lie. Once again, I have no problem with advanced movement mechanics. I don't know how many ways I can say this.[/QUOTE] I haven't played quake myself so I'm not sure about this, but afaik air strafing was added in by itself, it's not some unintended side effect, unlike blast jumping which is just how the engine physics turned out to be, how is air strafing an exploit when the devs themselves coded that you can move slightly while in the air?, you could argue that gaining speed from this is an exploit, but how is the movement itself an exploit? EDIT: maybe you understood me incorrectly, I'm not talking about strafe jumping (which is abusing air strafing mechanics while on the ground)/bhopping , I'm talking about the ability to slightly control your movement while in the air

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52598920]Disguising? No, I never would, especially since the game shipped with it as an intended mechanic. I said before I used to play lots of Quake, especially Quake 3, and yes i would say strafe jumping was abusing an exploit. It was cool as fuck and everyone embraced it, so all good, but saying otherwise would be a lie. Once again, I have no problem with advanced movement mechanics. I don't know how many ways I can say this. Regardless I think Petroklos summed up perfectly why I enjoy both games and what people should expect from both experiences. I don't think I need to play devils advocate anymore and can go back to lurking and the occasional speculation on the update. This little back and forth also turned me onto a new game I plan to check out, Law Breakers. Thanks Exor.[/QUOTE] Disguising in TF2 is based off of an old TFC exploit which is what I think he means.

I don't care what people think of Overwatch but the one thing I'm really puzzled about how some people think that "The Pyro Update is going to kill Overwatch!" or "Overwatch is getting an update,Valve better release it now to kill it!" I mean,do you really think that Valve gives a shit about Overwatch? Do you think Blizzard made Overwatch to kill TF2? Because honestly,I think both corporations could give less of a shit.