TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

As if we need any more ammunition against Valve.

Lookin' at the massive playerboost Path of Exile got with that Major Update, you kind of realize how reviving this Update could be for TF2. While I'm sticking to this week, I generally just hope it happens before Tip of the Hats. They would have so much more attention to work with, and thus more viewership to donate for dem kids. It's already a shame that it didn't happen before i61, making it happen during one of TF2's drought period of no attention, making the viewership spike around 2k~ at max... It being hosted on essentials.tf (????) that have 1/20th of the Followers of teamfortresstv doesn't help the case. Shame because the production quality has been improved massively, these double demo rollout cameras are great.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52618003]Lookin' at the massive playerboost Path of Exile got with that Major Update, you kind of realize how reviving this Update could be for TF2. While I'm sticking to this week, I generally just hope it happens before Tip of the Hats. They would have so much more attention to work with, and thus more viewership to donate for dem kids. It's already a shame that it didn't happen before i61, making it happen during one of TF2's drought period of no attention, making the viewership spike around 2k~ at max... It being hosted on essentials.tf (????) that have 1/20th of the Followers of teamfortresstv doesn't help the case. Shame because the production quality has been improved massively, these double demo rollout cameras are great.[/QUOTE] What TF2 needs to be revitalized properly, is something akin to Dota 2's Reborn update- new engine tools, redesigned and modernised UI and performance overhauls, in addition to the rebalances and class reworks valve has planned. Unfortunately, that's work. And we all know how valve is about work on things that aren't already bringing in the $

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52617911]As if we need any more ammunition against Valve.[/QUOTE] Nothing i said was against them, i think its just how things are. Not enough people seeing TF2 as valuable project to work on and invest their time for it.

[QUOTE=ics;52618014]Nothing i said was against them, i think its just how things are. Not enough people seeing TF2 as valuable project to work on and invest their time for it.[/QUOTE] Which will inherently skew toward negativity given the context of the information. We, the underappreciated demographic and the victims of this approach to work allocation, are obviously going to find fault in it.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52618027]Which will inherently skew toward negativity given the context of the information. We, the underappreciated demographic and the victims of this approach to work allocation, are obviously going to find fault in it.[/QUOTE] Yes, maybe posting to facepunch about game or it's development issues isn't a good place. Maybe these discussion forums would be better place if everyone would just think positive thoughts and not take everything as negatively. Pyroland! Thats were we would be then.

[QUOTE=ikes;52616695]I'll tell you why they havent made hl3/ep3 yet valve is a company about innovation. every single half life game has effectively doubled as a tech demo for whatever new engine/tech they've developed. Half Life demonstrated the power of goldsrc, half life 2 for source and its physics, so half life 3 isnt going to drop until they finish source 2 and develop some sort of new tech for the new engine they're not going to release their flagship franchise on 15 year old technology, and they're not going to release their flagship franchise on their new engine if there's no innovative mechanics/technology, which in today's market is few and far between. Innovation is hard to come by with the power of modern engines. They cant make it a VR exclusive since the VR market is so niche and that would practically kill the franchise for the broad consumerbase, so until source 2 has some new innovative mechanisms, we won't be seeing another half life game but this is for the half life thread, so I'll stop it here[/QUOTE] copying hearthstone to wring out more cash from the community market through card trading sure is innovative.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52618056] so instead of actual discussion with differing opinions we should all just be a circlejerk memeland like reddit?[/QUOTE] No, i ment discussing stuff here or elsewhere doesn't fix the current situation to way or the other. Only thing that can fix it, is some sort of sign/communication/improvent/intervention from Valve side. And i was a bit too sarcastic. Sorry.

[QUOTE=ics;52618066]No, i ment discussing stuff here or elsewhere doesn't fix the current situation to way or the other. Only thing that can fix it, is some sort of sign/communication/improvent/intervention from Valve side. And i was a bit too sarcastic. Sorry.[/QUOTE] Im too tired to detect sarcasm right now sorry

I'm hoping that Tyler gets to interview Gabe again at some point in the future and asks him about Valve's structure and if he thinks it hurts TF2.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQzw2YdRpg"] Good video explaining how stupid sniper is [/URL]

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52618092][URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQzw2YdRpg"] Good video explaining how stupid sniper is [/URL][/QUOTE] Yeah that reminds me of [url=https://youtu.be/PwXsUvgxfNI?t=310]the one thing[/url] that I always thought Overwatch did objectively better.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52618092][URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQzw2YdRpg"] Good video explaining how stupid sniper is [/URL][/QUOTE] Sirky makes good videos (I wish he did them more often) and brings up legitimate points/issues in his videos, but his aim is so good that I feel like some of his issues wont affect 99% of TF2 players. His aim with stuff like quickscope headshots and demo pills in his videos are much better than most players (and possibly better than a lot of competitive players). Though I think his idea about being able to hold a charged shot is interesting and could make for an interesting alternate sniper rifle. Give it less max damage and quickscope damage but the ability to hold a single charged shot after you zoom out if you don't fire.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52618158]Though I think his idea about being able to hold a charged shot is interesting and could make for an interesting alternate sniper rifle. Give it less max damage and quickscope damage but the ability to hold a single charged shot after you zoom out if you don't fire.[/QUOTE] Yeah I pointed a thing out about this in the YT comments [quote]People would sorta stutter-scope to always keep scope charge above 50% while also keeping good mobility•[/quote] Overall I don't see a point to such a weapon either way. Also, when people talk about balancing the game around competitive, Sirky's idea of balance is a pretty good counterargument. The ensuing nerfs would leave only very few heads unscratched.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52618158]Sirky makes good videos (I wish he did them more often) and brings up legitimate points/issues in his videos, but his aim is so good that I feel like some of his issues wont affect 99% of TF2 players. His aim with stuff like quickscope headshots and demo pills in his videos are much better than most players (and possibly better than a lot of competitive players). Though I think his idea about being able to hold a charged shot is interesting and could make for an interesting alternate sniper rifle. Give it less max damage and quickscope damage but the ability to hold a single charged shot after you zoom out if you don't fire.[/QUOTE] +Charge quickly drains when Unscoped +Partially and fully charged unscoped shots deal (mini?)crits and consume all charge (<<not sure about this one) -Base damage reduced to 35 (Quickshots deal 105, 125/150HP classes need 2 instead of 1, 175/200HP classes still need 2, >200HP classes need 3 instead of 2) ~Charge speed adjusted to keep the time-to-full-charge same. (<<maybe increase it to reach full charge even faster than stock) EDIT: If it gets to full charge 25% faster than the Sniper Rifle, past the point of 90/270 Damage (the 1.3" of Charging to its maximum of 2.8), its Damage would be higher than stock's at any time, until the 3.3" when Stock reaches max. [t]http://i.imgur.com/X2ybM9M.jpg[/t] Removes the 1shot capabilities to allow a more "charge" based but mobile play style. Might be useful against teams with good Medics that don't walk in your sight lines. :thinking: AnotherEDIT: If we want to make it crazy, +When Unscoped, speed increases based on stored Charge, up to a +33% of base speed (each 3% charge adds 1% speed). This makes it even more focused on the "Charging and Moving" play style. Tbh, unless we intend to straight up nerf the Sniper, removing his Quickshot 1-shot on an Unlock would need massive upsides.

remove sniper [editline]27th August 2017[/editline] replace him with genji

for the first 15ths of a second sniper scopes it does 75 damage?

I always thought Sniper shouldn't be able to 150 a target with a close range quickscope. It just feels kind of random and stupid. Same goes for all other games. Widowmaker killing you with a quickscope close range feels awkward and stupid aswell.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52618092][URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQzw2YdRpg"] Good video explaining how stupid sniper is [/URL][/QUOTE] this is a video with some good points and some...okay-sounding suggestions, but a lot of Sniper's problems are diminished in high-level play Sirky has amazing aim, don't get me wrong- but he's also massacring a bunch of pub players in this video, who are essentially the lowest-common denominator as far as skilled play goes. Anyone can fucking annihilate a pub, with any class- [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=webS0VdJ1ZE"]I've done it with the stock Revolver![/URL] Most pubbers have horrible aim, movement and tracking, which pretty much just turns them into fodder unless they get a random crit or are so bad/nonsensical that they actually end up being accidentally good. 6s, due to its focus on high-mobility classes, makes Sniper much less of a problem, since all players involved typically have far better aim and movement. Sniper can still do crazy things in that format, but he's not nearly as overwhelming as he can feel in pubs or Highlander. I enjoy Highlander pretty much based on fulltime Spy alone- Sniper in Highlander is a nightmare, and alongside Demoman, completely dominates the entire format. The entire game in Highlander revolves around picking the Sniper, Demoman or Medic, with raw player advantage often mattering much less because of the sheer power of those two classes. When confronted with the idea of nerfing Sniper, I'm left with conflicting ideas. A nerf to Sniper would make HL much more bearable, but HL is a niche format anyways, and shouldn't impact game-wide balancing decisions in most cases. (I view the Razorback as an exception to this- the nerf its receiving now is long overdue.) A nerf to Sniper would also offer a corresponding boost to Heavy, which I would say is generally a good thing...but Heavy also grows much more powerful without a Sniper in play, and many Heavies I play against at a high-level simply do not have problems with Spies. The only time I can say that Sniper is the uncontested best class in the game is in Highlander. He can dominate in pub play as well, but he doesn't determine how the entire game is played, and even just a single player of equal skill on the opposite team can shut him down, as it should be. Speaking of pub play, there's also the question of the assortment of horrible Snipers that are in every game- should the skill floor of the class be boosted when an arguable majority of its players already can't seem to reach it? Sirky's proposed nerf/rework to quickscope headshots sounds fine for the most part. If nothing else, his suggestion for the scope displaying actual potential damage when charging sounds like a sorely-needed quality of life boost, and should be implemented as an advanced option if nothing else. My only real issue is with the proposed rework is that "storing" quickscope headshots sounds a little complex, and would likely require an additional HUD element to be conveyed to the player in any meaningful way.

To add to that, a lot of Sniper problems are map problems, not class problems. Bad maps (which includes a bunch of Valve ones, like Goldrush) have long sightlines which you can't avoid while progressing, meaning Sniper is extremely dominant. His effectiveness is only as good as the range he's allowed to have - if there's no long sightlines or a lot of alternative routes, Sniper quickly becomes worse. You'll find very few Snipers on, say, Junction. That said, nerfing the damage Sniper does up close isn't a bad idea - good Snipers would probably still be able to net kills fairly often, but it prevents the feeling that Sniper feels all-powerful at all ranges.

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Sniper is annoying to fight, even if he's mostly useless in 6s. It's not really even a fight, it's "Oh there's a Sniper there, better try to get out of the wa- *headshot* god damnit SOMEONE KILL THE SNIPER". It's one-sided. It's the Sniper's skill that determines whether you survive, not yours. And that's something I take issue with. Lag compensation often gets me headshot even if I'm doing my best to strafe and duck to prevent that 150 damage.

Yeah, its probably a good idea to reduce the "base" damage but keeping the maximum damage and charge time the same. It's ridiculous that the sniper can just instantly oneshot a medic.

on the other hand, if you put quickscopes down to 100 damage, then 95% of us lowly ungifted mortals would do really bad with the class. Everyone would just switch to huntsman or get votekicked for being useless. sniper is part of the 9 classes wheter you like it or not and isn't going to be indirectly deleted just because you have a personal vendetta against it. this Sirky person is insanely skilled but fortunately these gifted people aren't too common.

In relation to all this talk about "Valve should just give TF2's source to the community because that's an entirely feasible thing that won't end up with a thousand forks and wasted effort and also never happening"... What ever happened with TF2 Classic? Other than the name, I felt like that was probably the closest you'd get to having TF2 entirely in the community's hands post-Invasion.

Overwatch snipers are a lot worse than tf2 imo, all the seeing through wall mechanics mean that occasionally you're just going to die to a shot immediately after turning a corner. At least when a sniper is going to quickscope you, you have some amount of time to react.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52618592]Overwatch snipers are a lot worse than tf2 imo, all the seeing through wall mechanics mean that occasionally you're just going to die to a shot immediately after turning a corner. At least when a sniper is going to quickscope you, you have some amount of time to react.[/QUOTE] Overwatch does have thousand of barrier heroes to counter that, though. Then you have the designated delete Sniper button called Winston, too.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52618592]Overwatch snipers are a lot worse than tf2 imo, all the seeing through wall mechanics mean that occasionally you're just going to die to a shot immediately after turning a corner. At least when a sniper is going to quickscope you, you have some amount of time to react.[/QUOTE] Overwatch makes xray effects very clear to both teams. Widowmaker has an identifiable voiceline for her ultimate, as does hanzo's applicable arrow. While xray mechanics are annoying, the game does it in a way you can learn how to work around it fairly quickly.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52618158]Sirky makes good videos (I wish he did them more often) and brings up legitimate points/issues in his videos, but his aim is so good that I feel like some of his issues wont affect 99% of TF2 players. His aim with stuff like quickscope headshots and demo pills in his videos are much better than most players (and possibly better than a lot of competitive players). Though I think his idea about being able to hold a charged shot is interesting and could make for an interesting alternate sniper rifle. Give it less max damage and quickscope damage but the ability to hold a single charged shot after you zoom out if you don't fire.[/QUOTE] Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember that TF team stating that they wanted to balance the game from the top to bottom? Balancing weapons and classes for the best players ensures that everything is balanced. That's why I'm in favor for balancing everything towards competitive.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52618492]on the other hand, if you put quickscopes down to 100 damage, then 95% of us lowly ungifted mortals would do really bad with the class. Everyone would just switch to huntsman or get votekicked for being useless. sniper is part of the 9 classes wheter you like it or not and isn't going to be indirectly deleted just because you have a personal vendetta against it. this Sirky person is insanely skilled but fortunately these gifted people aren't too common.[/QUOTE] What stops you from standing for a second, scoped? You know, using [B]positioning[/B], [B]prediction[/B] and [B]prepare[/B] for shots? About storing charge - this could work out badly. People can store full charge in safe places and then do insane amount of damage where they shouldn't. I think it should be able to store charge, but it would fade at the same rate as it was gained while unscoped