TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

One thing I've always enjoyed about tf2 is the effective skill ceilings for each class, and in my opinion sniper has one of the highest. What kind of balance changes could you make that would still leave him an effective class? I really like the reduced quickscope damage idea, just make it so the first 20th of a second he does 100? Still leaves the false-scoping where snipers just raise their guns at each other for ten seconds until one of them dies. Which I personally think is fun to watch, but stressful when it happens to me.

It's refreshing to hear a good sniper admit his class has issues that need to be addressed.

You guys do realize that there's an unmentioned timer already implemented that prevents Sniper from scoring headshots -- regardless of where he hits -- after he scopes in, right?

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52618846]You guys do realize that there's an unmentioned timer already implemented that prevents Sniper from scoring headshots -- regardless of where he hits -- after he scopes in, right?[/QUOTE] Yeah, but quickscopes are still disgustingly easy to pull off for how effective they are.

A more clean approach would be to make it such that taking a shot while aim is being actively jarred would guaranteed not register as a headshot. It'd make actively engaging with a Sniper (quickscoping or otherwise) make more sense on the recipient's side as they have a clear countermeasure aside from ducking behind cover.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52618846]You guys do realize that there's an unmentioned timer already implemented that prevents Sniper from scoring headshots -- regardless of where he hits -- after he scopes in, right?[/QUOTE] It's so short that there could be none as well, because it was implemented to make scripted one-button quickscopes impossible. It proved that it's not enough.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52618864]A more clean approach would be to make it such that taking a shot while aim is being actively jarred would guaranteed not register as a headshot. It'd make actively engaging with a Sniper (quickscoping or otherwise) make more sense on the recipient's side as they have a clear countermeasure aside from ducking behind cover.[/QUOTE] Seems like at that point even a shotgun from across the map is enough to shutdown a sniper

[QUOTE=st00pid;52618830]What stops you from standing for a second, scoped? You know, using [B]positioning[/B], [B]prediction[/B] and [B]prepare[/B] for shots? About storing charge - this could work out badly. People can store full charge in safe places and then do insane amount of damage where they shouldn't. I think it should be able to store charge, but it would fade at the same rate as it was gained while unscoped[/QUOTE] Staring at walls and creeping out isn't effective and usually spells your death because of tunnel vision. that's exactly why people go for quickscopes.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52618885]Seems like at that point even a shotgun from across the map is enough to shutdown a sniper[/QUOTE] Not very effectively and not for very long. There can be more refinement to the concept but putting it out there it makes more sense than arbitrary damage retention that you can't even have hopes of seeing

[QUOTE=Jetamo;52618586]What ever happened with TF2 Classic? Other than the name, I felt like that was probably the closest you'd get to having TF2 entirely in the community's hands post-Invasion.[/QUOTE] From what I know, they are making sure this full 2.0 update is the biggest update for the game. It's not dead, it's just a lot of it is going on in the closed beta.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52618328]this is a video with some good points and some...okay-sounding suggestions, but a lot of Sniper's problems are diminished in high-level play Sirky has amazing aim, don't get me wrong- but he's also massacring a bunch of pub players in this video, who are essentially the lowest-common denominator as far as skilled play goes. Anyone can fucking annihilate a pub, with any class- [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=webS0VdJ1ZE"]I've done it with the stock Revolver![/URL] Most pubbers have horrible aim, movement and tracking, which pretty much just turns them into fodder unless they get a random crit or are so bad/nonsensical that they actually end up being accidentally good. 6s, due to its focus on high-mobility classes, makes Sniper much less of a problem, since all players involved typically have far better aim and movement. Sniper can still do crazy things in that format, but he's not nearly as overwhelming as he can feel in pubs or Highlander. I enjoy Highlander pretty much based on fulltime Spy alone- Sniper in Highlander is a nightmare, and alongside Demoman, completely dominates the entire format. The entire game in Highlander revolves around picking the Sniper, Demoman or Medic, with raw player advantage often mattering much less because of the sheer power of those two classes. When confronted with the idea of nerfing Sniper, I'm left with conflicting ideas. A nerf to Sniper would make HL much more bearable, but HL is a niche format anyways, and shouldn't impact game-wide balancing decisions in most cases. (I view the Razorback as an exception to this- the nerf its receiving now is long overdue.) A nerf to Sniper would also offer a corresponding boost to Heavy, which I would say is generally a good thing...but Heavy also grows much more powerful without a Sniper in play, and many Heavies I play against at a high-level simply do not have problems with Spies. The only time I can say that Sniper is the uncontested best class in the game is in Highlander. He can dominate in pub play as well, but he doesn't determine how the entire game is played, and even just a single player of equal skill on the opposite team can shut him down, as it should be. Speaking of pub play, there's also the question of the assortment of horrible Snipers that are in every game- should the skill floor of the class be boosted when an arguable majority of its players already can't seem to reach it? Sirky's proposed nerf/rework to quickscope headshots sounds fine for the most part. If nothing else, his suggestion for the scope displaying actual potential damage when charging sounds like a sorely-needed quality of life boost, and should be implemented as an advanced option if nothing else. My only real issue is with the proposed rework is that "storing" quickscope headshots sounds a little complex, and would likely require an additional HUD element to be conveyed to the player in any meaningful way.[/QUOTE] Heavy is kept in check by Demoman well enough.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52619011]Heavy is kept in check by Demoman well enough.[/QUOTE] and soldier and scout and spy :/

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52618887]Staring at walls and creeping out isn't effective and usually spells your death because of tunnel vision. that's exactly why people go for quickscopes.[/QUOTE] But that's how he's supposed to be playing, isn't he? Spy too isn't supposed to spam deadringer to avoid dying, but that what he does and it's effective. That's a bit of an extreme example but i hope you catch my meaning - game has to be tweaked if most effective way of play isn't intended one.

Hard scoping is an alternative strategy to quickscoping, and I usually only hard scope to one shot unaware/overhealed players. Neither of them is inherently wrong, but quick scoping is better in 75% of situations. or 6/9

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52619011]Heavy is kept in check by Demoman well enough.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=poptart TF2;52619044]and soldier and scout and spy :/[/QUOTE] And then you put Overheal into the mix. Suddenly Demoman needs 4 direct Pipes and a couple well placed Stickies, a Soldier needs 4 direct Rockets and a couple well placed Shotgun shots in close range, a Scout needs 5 meaty Scattergun shots while in close range. During this time, even if they have a Medic too, the Heavy is pumping out constant damage, likely higher than his enemies, since he doesn't have to reload or switch weapons. If the fight takes place in medium to close range and last too long, the Heavy will most of the time win. Also lets be honest, a Spy will rarely get close enough to a Heavy-Medic combo. Especially in Highlander where it's a Heavy-Medic-Pyro combo, which incidentally makes Demoman's and Soldier's strength in this matter even lesser. A Sniper however, can kill an Overhealed Heavy in a single hit, thus ignoring the Medic's continuous healing. In addition he's the farthest away, being extremely safe. Overhealed Heavies are kept in check by Snipers, other OH Heavies and Criticals. A Soldier or Demoman with Kritz needs only two direct hits, however riskier it might be against a Heavy-Medic-Pyro combo. A Scout needs only three meatshots, but he must be in close range. A Pyro with the Phlogistinator or the Backburner will do wonders if the Heavy is distracted, otherwise he just dies, not to mention that neither weapon works in Highlander, because Pyro's only real uses there are Spychecking and Airblasts.

i61 is over, SE7EN won against SVIFT. And now the Pyro Update, please!

If we're not bringing unlocks into the equation, then all a Demoman has to do is spam stickies against a combo if there's even a hint of cover. If a Demoman is also being healed, then it can be an uphill battle for Heavy. If unlocks are being factored in, then the Loose Cannon shuts Heavy down entirely.

i61 is over! [sp] Se7en has won over Svift, 3-1! [/sp] What a fantastic display of Team Fortress 2 alongside of an amazing production quality, great commentators and great crowd, lots of action packed moments. Raymon has got to best medic TF2 has to offer right now. We also got b4nny deepthroating a mic so there's that. [t]https://i.redd.it/9i1idznrkaiz.png[/t] See you next year! Now that i61 is over the TF Team will hopefully drop the Update as hard as Raptor dropped his ubers.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52619182]i61 is over! [sp] Se7en has won over Svift, 3-1! [/sp] What a fantastic display of Team Fortress 2 alongside of an amazing production quality, great commentators and great crowd, lots of action packed moments. Raymon has got to best medic TF2 has to offer right now. We also got b4nny deepthroating a mic so there's that. image See you next year![/QUOTE] And raptor will be remembered as droptor.

Heavy is only really good for blocking caps, that's really only situation where his movement speed isn't an issue.

Man, what an event. My butt was clenched for a full 10 minutes during the last game on Granary.

[QUOTE=bananaslamma;52619196]Heavy is only really good for blocking caps, that's really only situation where his movement speed isn't an issue.[/QUOTE] With Highlander played mostly in Payload (correct me if this has changed), mobility is low and Heavy works all of the time because its a bucket of HP and unending bullets next to the objective point, or the Dispencer placed in the chosen point to defend. In 6's however, you are correct. Unless we rewind back to when the Steak and GRU had an additive effect!

[QUOTE=Fluury;52619182]i61 is over! [sp] Se7en has won over Svift, 3-1! [/sp] What a fantastic display of Team Fortress 2 alongside of an amazing production quality, great commentators and great crowd, lots of action packed moments. Raymon has got to best medic TF2 has to offer right now. We also got b4nny deepthroating a mic so there's that. [t]https://i.redd.it/9i1idznrkaiz.png[/t] See you next year! Now that i61 is over the TF Team will hopefully drop the Update as hard as Raptor dropped his ubers.[/QUOTE] B4nny is a lion!

[QUOTE=SuicidalFaget;52619217]B4nny is a lion![/QUOTE] li0n? :thinking:

Drop it. Now.

[QUOTE=Petroklos;52619213]With Highlander played mostly in Payload (correct me if this has changed), mobility is low and Heavy works all of the time because its a bucket of HP and unending bullets next to the objective point, or the Dispencer placed in the chosen point to defend. In 6's however, you are correct. Unless we rewind back to when the Steak and GRU had an additive effect![/QUOTE] Yeah, heavy is only worth using in highlander.

[QUOTE=bananaslamma;52619322]Yeah, heavy is only worth using in highlander.[/QUOTE] It's more like he's only [I]not[/I] worth using in 5CP.

[QUOTE=Antary;52619488]It's more like he's only [I]not[/I] worth using in 5CP.[/QUOTE] Every server I go on, I really only see one heavy. This might be a good thing. But heavy as in defence heavy. As in, hanging out with the engineer heavy As in, "Friendly" heavy (Friendly in quotations because these people go batshit when you kill them) As in, If he does actually help somebody, he'll give a sandwich to a scout that had just got 5hp taken off him in a "firefight", instead of a literal cremated corpse of a human being that had his arse burnt off him by a pyro. As in, Does fuck all. You can obviously see my rage brewing up.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52619181]If unlocks are being factored in, then the Loose Cannon shuts Heavy down entirely.[/QUOTE] This brings up a quality of life change for the fat man that I've wanted for years: Increased knockback resistance when spun up. If I'm already a huge, immobile hitbox when I'm actually able to do damage (and fighting through the 1 second accuracy/damage ramp up) I'd really like to not be sent into low earth orbit by one gabendamn cannoball or DH rocket. Heavy is supposed to be a tank, not a hot air balloon (no matter how much he may look like one.)

[QUOTE=Ultravod;52619509]This brings up a quality of life change for the fat man that I've wanted for years: Increased knockback resistance when spun up. If I'm already a huge, immobile hitbox when I'm actually able to do damage (and fighting through the 1 second accuracy/damage ramp up) I'd really like to not be sent into low earth orbit by one gabendamn cannoball or DH rocket. Heavy is supposed to be a tank, not a hot air balloon (no matter how much he may look like one.)[/QUOTE] base heavy already has -50% knockback which is enough to nullify everything except overkill damage (crits etc) what you want fixed is the airblast garbage effect from things like LC and scorch FaN ab