TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

[QUOTE=Jetamo;52520871]Exactly: People just want to go do mindless shooting without real focus on the objective. Hence why Hightower is also popular.[/QUOTE] I"m just surprised that map hasn't had a facelift or anything done

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52520984]I"m just surprised that map hasn't had a facelift or anything done[/QUOTE] a bare map like orange has its large benefits for performance. that's one of the key points why it's liked alot. also somebody from facepunch already made a "finished" cp_orange.

I had a 2/3 MvM campaign sitting around (been like that for +3 years) so I finally bought a ticket and finished it. Got an Australian Tomislav for my troubles. Pretty neat.

Orange is popular for the same reasons 2fort and turbine are. It's terrible maps for anyone who looks for a real game of tf2 for the same reasons is why it's fun for a lot of people : you always play the maps in the same exact way, so you know exactly what you're gonna get and what to do, and that familiarity is comforting for alot of people. Theres just a ton of people who dont want to dive into the mechanics of the game and just want to have the most mindless fun the game has to offer, and dont want to try new things. And you can probably run the map on a raspberry pi. There's a lot of people from poor countries who play tf2, with really low end computers.

[QUOTE=Loth;52521076]Orange is popular for the same reasons 2fort and turbine are. It's terrible maps for anyone who looks for a real game of tf2 for the same reasons is why it's fun for a lot of people : you always play the maps in the same exact way, so you know exactly what you're gonna get and what to do, and that familiarity is comforting for alot of people. Theres just a ton of people who dont want to dive into the mechanics of the game and just want to have the most mindless fun the game has to offer, and dont want to try new things. And you can probably run the map on a raspberry pi. There's a lot of people from poor countries who play tf2, with really low end computers.[/QUOTE] 2fort is more so popular because it's more of a legacy type map more then anything. It keeps getting into Team Fortress because it was the original big map for the quake mod. Hell, so many versions of that map exist from back then as well on top of things. It actual ran better back then too, but changes that TF2 received transitioning from TFC to TF2 kind of broke it. I think mostly because defending became more easier to do in TF2 then in previous games... Sentry nests in particular didn't hold up well to grenade spam, which most classes had effective anti sentry grenades back then.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52521154]2fort is more so popular because it's more of a legacy type map more then anything. It keeps getting into Team Fortress because it was the original big map for the quake mod. Hell, so many versions of that map exist from back then as well on top of things.[/QUOTE] Yeah i agree. Its actually crazy the 2fort layout was added to tf2, after grenades were removed. Having the option to sentry nest right out of spawn on that map just kills its balance. The tf2 concept art and trailers shows that it was one of the first map made for the game. My theory is that they made 2fort and hydro to figure out the style of team fortress, see how the art direction would actually look in the engine, and used a classic team fortress layout for 2fort to focus on the artpass. That explains to me why 2fort has gorgeous detailing to this day, but that map and hydro have terribly aged. Maybe they were also in developpement before the actual tf2 gameplay was final, and were balanced around a different game. My main issue with 2fort is that it feels super claustrophobic. I genuinely feels unwell playing on that map.

2fort feels very close compared to newer maps so that's understandable, junction is worse though.

I enjoy 2Fort, it clearly has some huge flaws even for endless TDM (which is all it's good for.) The choke points make it demo hell. There's a legion of 2Fort-only Demo mains who are masters at spamming the shit out of the plethora of chokes. Some are all stock. Some use the Loch'n'Lol (though fewer since it was nerfed.) A bunch still use the lose cannon. There's also all the hybrid Demoknights who get heads with a shield then swap it out for a stock or Quickie. Did I mention how much I hate the QBL? The other side of this coin are the rare ScoRes demos. They're insanely powerful on defense, but I respect them. Black Box Soldiers. The Crutch Box/Conch/Escape Plan Solider is more of a problem on 2Fort than any other map, whether it's in the sewers, jumping on to the enemy battlements or playing "undying defense." My (least) favorite is the Black Box/Battalion's Backup/Kritz Medic combo. He gets all the crits, you get none. 2Fort Only Snipers. In one sense, I've got to rights to be talking about anyone's sniping abilities because I'm demonstrably terribly at the class. With that said, the snipers who main 2Fort are really good at looking in one direction and ONLY one direction. Plunk them on Doublecross and they'll have no idea what to do. Mostly AFK Turtle Engies. They are a problem on all CTF maps, but the 2Fort breed are a special bunch. 3 of them in the intel room. 2 more in the hay room. One in the sink room for good measure. Telly entrances that are obnoxiously close to the main spawn. Telly exits to some place you really didn't want to go. Never a dispenser where you could actually USE it. The ammo and health packs on 2Fort could stand a revisitation. It's got the opposite problem that Landfall does. It'd be okay to put a few more supplies on the map. The worst thing about 2Fort isn't the map's design. It's the fact that it's catnip for cheaters. CTF has always been a popular game mode for the shitheads who cheat in TF2, but 2Fort is their playground. MyM's "casual matchmaking" lobby system has made the matter far worse since they can queue together and shut down kickvotes as a group. About the only hacking horror I have NOT encountered on 2Fort is one cheating fuckhead and his army of 5 followbots.

Most early valve maps are like this,small open fields with close quarters in-between. Such as dustbowl,the first cp are is open up until the first cp itself,then there are the tunnels and then there is the field where the second cp is inside another building. I think they made it that way so that all class' can have a place where they can be usefull by deploying themselves in areas where it benefits their effective range.

Once I removed 2fort and Turbine from my maplist I rarely see cheaters, leads me to think a lot of the people who complain are also the type who only play 2fort/turbine.

[QUOTE=Whomobile;52521593]Once I removed 2fort and Turbine from my maplist I rarely see cheaters, leads me to think a lot of the people who complain are also the type who only play 2fort/turbine.[/QUOTE] The fact that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Also, is complaining about cheating a bad thing now somehow?

There is literally nothing wrong with playing 24/7 fast respawn 2fort.

[QUOTE=Ultravod;52521497]I enjoy 2Fort, it clearly has some huge flaws even for endless TDM (which is all it's good for.)[/QUOTE] 2Fort is terrible for endless TDM, actually I think it's the worst map you could TDM on. It's a simple thing, Soldiers and Demos dominate everywhere and as such people resort to playing engineers in the intel room or snipers in the battalion. Good job trying to play Scout, Spy, or Pyro on 2Fort, these are classes that really rely on maneuverability and health packs to work. Heavy can have minor success by taking people by surprise, but he gets moved down easily once he's discovered. Hightower is the antithesis of 2Fort and that's why it's the greatest deathmatch map in the game.

[QUOTE=st00pid;52521615]The fact that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Also, is complaining about cheating a bad thing now somehow?[/QUOTE] To clarify I meant complain A LOT about hackers, I keep hearing about this overflow of hackers but rarely see one a week at best. I think I've seem more hackers in GTA Online then I ever have playing TF2. Might be because I live in Aus and the Sydney servers are too far away for most to join. [editline]30th July 2017[/editline] Don't get me wrong TF2 has a hacker problem (especially repeat hackers who just reinstall the game once VAC banned and continue cheating) but I think it's overblown.

To change the subject, does anyone else feel that the Distinctive Lack of Hue is overused? I much prefer After Eight for nearly every case in which DLH could be used.

[QUOTE=Waluigifan;52521704]To change the subject, does anyone else feel that the Distinctive Lack of Hue is overused? I much prefer After Eight for nearly every case in which DLH could be used.[/QUOTE] lack of hue is much too dark, undersaturated, and expensive, which automatically means "good" in the eyes of people with no taste in paint, same with abundance of tinge

[QUOTE=Waluigifan;52521704]To change the subject, does anyone else feel that the Distinctive Lack of Hue is overused? I much prefer After Eight for nearly every case in which DLH could be used.[/QUOTE] Never seen it used in game. Pink as hell, lime and defeat, abundance of tinge - yes, but not lack of hue. After eight looks terrible on some items, because some authors decide to make paint blend with original item color by making paintable texture semi-transparent. But most of the paints look bad on those items, so after eight is still better and more natural than DLoH

[QUOTE=rolfum;52521711]lack of hue is much too dark, undersaturated, and expensive, which automatically means "good" in the eyes of people with no taste in paint, same with abundance of tinge[/QUOTE] So... Pink and lime?

Same thing goes for Drab or Color no. 216: both are great alternatives for abundance of tinge or even better in some cases (f.e. drab fits better in with TF's art style)

[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52521653]2Fort is terrible for endless TDM, actually I think it's the worst map you could TDM on. It's a simple thing, Soldiers and Demos dominate everywhere and as such people resort to playing engineers in the intel room or snipers in the battalion. Good job trying to play Scout, Spy, or Pyro on 2Fort, these are classes that really rely on maneuverability and health packs to work. Heavy can have minor success by taking people by surprise, but he gets moved down easily once he's discovered. Hightower is the antithesis of 2Fort and that's why it's the greatest deathmatch map in the game.[/QUOTE] That's not how you spell D O U B L E C R O S S. Your criticisms of 2Fort are right, in that it's very difficult for classes that rely on movement and a boon to AoE weapons. Full disclosure: I run the only populated 24/7 Doublecross community server. I also run a 24/7 Hightower server. I have run a 24/7 Landfall server that was hugely popular during the Tough Break days (it was regularly in the top 100, and sometimes in the top 50 servers worldwide.) Also, I really REALLY don't like Hightower. I hate it as all 9 classes. I don't enjoy playing against wide sniper sightlines and protected battlements. I don't enjoy being endlessly bombarded by soldiers who always manage to break sightlines and get to a health pack right before I kill them. I dislike scouts full stop. The Deadringer makes me want to uninstall TF2. All of the above do really well on HT. I think DBLX is superior in every regard. The abyss is far bigger and not just on one side. The bases are both much larger and far more porous than 2Fort. In fact, Doublecross is a re-envisioning of 2Fort specifically designed for TF2's mechanics. The scenery is better than anything this side of Suijin. You ever notice that Uncle Dane uses DC for the Rancho image in his videos? Valve themselves use DC as the background for Full Moon portraits. DC has complex sniper sightlines and many, many places to snipe: the battlements, the courtyard, the grassy knoll, the window (if you're a cunt), the lower bridge (if you want to surprise a window sniper) etc etc. Conversely, it's pretty easy to avoid sniper sightlines if one knows the map well. The only thing that gets me consistently is an enemy sniper hiding behind the kill shack past my base's front door. To be honestly, if a sniper manages to sneak behind there and get a shot off, he probably deserved the frag. Doublecross is an explosive jumper's paradise ...if you know what you're doing. You can arch around the lamp poles on the upper bridge, land on the enemy's roof and begin menacing their snipers. I love to do this with the Cow Mangler and Concheror (it's about the only time I use the Conch outside of MvM.) As I said before, I don't like scouts but I respect what the good ones can do on DC ...and I know how to counter them (Natascha, from a defensible position, or a Mini Sentry in an obnoxious spot.) DC is a bit sparse on health an ammo packs, but it's not as disgustingly generous as Hightower and Landfall (both of which are way to generous, making scouts, splodey classes and DR spies a complete PITA.) There's only one spawn, it has 3 exits (so fuck yo' spawn camping) and a 1-way window to see what's happing in your base. Doublecross also has a huge amount of real estate. The courtyards are enormous. It's quite possible for a friendly party to take place in one courtyard while a PvP battle rages on the upper bridge, with no interference between the two groups. When it comes to actually playing the objective of CTF, Doublecross is really the only map worth pursuing it on. Uncle Dane did a "Why CTF Sucks" video a while back and most of his objections were quite solid. The main counterpoint was that DC is the only map where it's possible to reset the intel with a well timed airblast, explosion or even a Shortstop shove. As long as the flag carrier hasn't cleared the upper or lower bridge, it's possible to execute a reset. I've actually airblased a scout carrying the intel from his own sewers into the abyss, back before the Degreaser nerf. I've been a server admin since January of 2014. I'm painfully aware of the popularity of [url=http://www.gametracker.com/search/?query=2fort]2Fort,[/url] [url=http://www.gametracker.com/search/?query=turbine]Turbine[/url] and [url=http://www.gametracker.com/search/?query=hightower]Hightower.[/url] These three mps are ubiquitous not just on community servers, but they also completely dominate Valve's shit-tastic casual matchmaking system. Likewise, I know all too well that Doublecross is at best [url=http://www.gametracker.com/search/?query=doublecross]a cult map.[/url] I'm not going to try to convince anyone who likes HT or 2Fort of DC's merits (if you prefer Turbine ....there's some Play Dough in the other room that will occupy your attention while the adults talk about boring stuff.) With that in mind, no one is going to convince me that Hightower is anything besides a loathsome shitshow of a map and a bar magnet for exactly the kind of TF2 players I hate. I'd rather play the fricken event version of of it, and I don't like skeletons, spells, hell battles, or the two goddamn undead brothers who won't STFU for a microsecond. 2Fort is the Pabst Blue Ribbon of TF2 maps. It's not at all refined, it's always available and there's a massive crowd that will partake in it with you. Enough exposure to it will make you stop caring about it, or anything else. Hightower is OE 800. It's inexplicably popular. The first sip is as bad as the last. It turns otherwise nice people into raging assholes. It makes the already prickish into cartoonishly worse versions of their former selves. It makes sane people nauseous. Doublecross is a Rhone wine. It's an acquired taste, and certainly not for everyone. For the true connoisseur, there is no substitute.

out of all the bad maps, turbine definitely seems like it'd be the easiest to fix, cause all it needs are props/walls to block sniper's outrageous sightlines, a taller and wider vent, a third route to the intel room, move spawns to a less active part of the map, and lastly a quick [URL="https://tf2maps.net/threads/turbine-re-artpass.18985/"]re-artpass[/URL] to give it a more scenic look. there, you now have a good looking and pretty fun ctf map to play, [I]except ctf is still flawed as a gamemode in general but I'll get to that later[/I]

[QUOTE=rolfum;52521870]out of all the bad maps, turbine definitely seems like it'd be the easiest to fix, cause all it needs are props/walls to block sniper's outrageous sightlines, a taller and wider vent, a third route to the intel room, move spawns to a less active part of the map, and lastly a quick [URL="https://tf2maps.net/threads/turbine-re-artpass.18985/"]re-artpass[/URL] to give it a more scenic look. there, you now have a good looking and pretty fun ctf map to play, [I]except ctf is still flawed as a gamemode in general but I'll get to that later[/I][/QUOTE] I think turbine is unfixable, as it's just too bare-boned and too small. It would only work as arena or TDM map.

It would be amazing if valve held some sort of map redesign contest. Serious remixes of a few of the classic maps that the game launched with would be amazing.

[QUOTE=st00pid;52521877]I think turbine is unfixable, as it's just too bare-boned and too small. It would only work as arena or TDM map.[/QUOTE] the thing about turbine is that it's really quite uncomplicated layout-wise with only 3 mostly straight-forward routes to the intel room and all mid is is an empty room with some props and balconies at either end, leaving plenty of open space for modification and new routes in the map

[QUOTE=rolfum;52521888]the thing about turbine is that it's really quite uncomplicated layout-wise with only 3 mostly straight-forward routes to the intel room and all mid is is an empty room with some props and balconies at either end, leaving plenty of open space for modification and new routes in the map[/QUOTE] Of course you could add meat to it, make an overhaul - but then it wouldn't be turbine anymore, it wouldn't be the map that people would want to play on 24/7 servers. It's loved (and hated) for what it is - a one level of complexity above sqare room with spawns. Changing anything about that may result in a great map, that wouldn't be turbine though

[QUOTE=st00pid;52521897]Of course you could add meat to it, make an overhaul - but then it wouldn't be turbine anymore [/QUOTE] it would be turbine, [I]a new, improved, and better turbine[/I]

[URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=893877014"]I already made Turbine better[/URL]

I hope to God Valve doesn't release the Pyro Update this week. I have 3 final exams with one at 6:30 in the evening on Thursday and two in the morning the following day. I would be thankful if they release it next week since my summer classes would be over and I can enjoy the little summer I have left.

Now [i]this[/i] is some reverse-psychology I can get behind.

[QUOTE=Whomobile;52521976][URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=893877014"]I already made Turbine better[/URL][/QUOTE] when will there be a rrerrbine