TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

[url]https://tf2maps.net/posts/421931/[/url] potato delivers, once again :goodjob:

I hope the Blap Medal gets added soon they look pretty "fresh" (not like the usual medals)

[I]Team Fortress 2[/I]''s fame suffers from a number of things, chief among them the time period it was developed in. Contemporary multiplayer games are crafted from the ground up to cater to competitive-oriented play, with queue systems and design decisions all made to support this. Competitive play and e-sports are currently in vogue, and that's what players come to expect from multiplayer titles in a post-2013 world. TF2 was never created with this in mind, as while competitive PC shooters certainly weren't a foreign concept, they never reached a level of ubiquity that overshadowed casual play on the general market. Secondary to this would be the fact that [I]Team Fortress 2[/I] was bundled with several other games at release, and its marketing was minimal as a result. To add insult to injury, most of the components integral to the success of both [I]Dota 2[/I] and CSGO were pioneered by TF2, their neglected older brother.

The MvM Mapping medals are already in the game, right? That contest was announced a long time ago if I recall correctly.

Sorry for taking too long. Winner is Owlet!. Add me or sent a trade request.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52526899][I]Team Fortress 2[/I]''s fame suffers from a number of things, chief among them the time period it was developed in. Contemporary multiplayer games are crafted from the ground up to cater to competitive-oriented play, with queue systems and design decisions all made to support this. Competitive play and e-sports are currently in vogue, and that's what players come to expect from multiplayer titles in a post-2013 world. TF2 was never created with this in mind, as while competitive PC shooters certainly weren't a foreign concept, they never reached a level of ubiquity that overshadowed casual play on the general market. Secondary to this would be the fact that [I]Team Fortress 2[/I] was bundled with several other games at release, and its marketing was minimal as a result. To add insult to injury, most of the components integral to the success of both [I]Dota 2[/I] and CSGO were pioneered by TF2, their neglected older brother.[/QUOTE] Honestly, this is why I still advocate a reset, so to speak. Not TF3, but akin to CS:GO. A separate entry, mistakes of the past avoided or fixed, a fresh coat of paint and, more importantly, a way to shake off some of the stigma that TF2 has with the gaming zeitgeist (of only being about hats and trading/having too many weapons).

I agree, but given the many problems with Valve (a topic discussed ad nauseum) I fear that will either never happen, or won't happen in a reasonable time span. Keep in mind that Valve only bothered with CS:GO after outsourcing it to a studio they no longer associate with.

the problem with modern game development and competitive games in particular is that they refuse to acknowledge what makes competitive games great and replayable for so long classic competitive games like street fighter 3: third strike, super smash bros melee, and quake all have something on common; their core mechanics were pushed to their absolute limit, and the game was made more competitive and granted a much higher skill ceiling than ever intended by the developers due to the developers' preference to make the game fun and rewarding and deep rather than developing the mechanics around balance (for the most part anyways, melee is arguably a result of many engine exploits never even discovered in development) parrying in street fighter 3 defines the meta, the more mileage a character can get from a parry = the better that character is in the tiers. the same can be said for overarching tech skill in melee, and movement/aim in quake (especially things like bhopping and rocket jumping which, wouldn't you know carried over into TFC and to a point TF2 by extension) modenr competitive games make an effort to cap their mechanics and make sure nothing exploitable can/would be used in competitive play, and it results in some of the most sterile and uninteresting competitive environments simply for the sake of balance and accessibility. just because street fighter 3's parrying made the game horribly unbalanced doesnt mean it's less competitive, since parrying as a mechanic still means the worst characters can succeed when played masterfully. Just because the cap for mobility in TF2 makes the soldier arguably the best class in the game doesn't mean that the lack of class balance is uncompetitive, I'd take that any day over overwatch's complete disregard for any sort of skillful mechanics. it's that sort of disregard for balance in favor of complex mechanics that makes competitive games so great. you look at a game like overwatch or street fighter 5 or smash 4 and they all completely lack any of that. players are left grasping at whatever slight mechanical complexity they can grasp (e.g. bidou or perfect pivots in smash 4) when players would be so much happier with unbalanced competitive mechanics that would make the game that much deeper. there's a reason that street fighter 3 and melee and quake have been actively played for 15-20+ years and games like USFIV are dropped as soon as the next installment comes around, and you can bet your ass the same will happen with "Overwatch 2" or whatever successor comes around. and that is EXACTLY why Overwatch can't hope to kill TF2. By being a source game, built on quake mechanics, TF2 is fundamentally deep simply by virtue of its engine IF nothing else. and there is a whole lot else.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52526875][url]https://tf2maps.net/posts/421931/[/url] potato delivers, once again :goodjob:[/QUOTE] Did you make a map for this Hell?

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52526875][url]https://tf2maps.net/posts/421931/[/url] potato delivers, once again :goodjob:[/QUOTE] Now if only Valve would do something with the crazy amount of community MVM content they have available to them.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52527071]Now if only Valve would do something with the crazy amount of community MVM content they have available to them.[/QUOTE] This reminds me. Was the Invasion update planned before the "Merc's Vs Aliens" mapping contest? Because I hope something similar will happen with an MvM update.

[QUOTE=Jboby1;52527121]This reminds me. Was the Invasion update planned before the "Merc's Vs Aliens" mapping contest? Because I hope something similar will happen with an MvM update.[/QUOTE] I'd love for valve to have a look at the great community mvm maps, but updates won't work like invasion in the future. It's not connected at all, it's a contest organised by the tf2maps admins because it's really cool to have the community make more mvm maps.

[QUOTE=ikes;52526995]the problem with modern game development and competitive games in particular is that they refuse to acknowledge what makes competitive games great and replayable for so long classic competitive games like street fighter 3: third strike, super smash bros melee, and quake all have something on common; their core mechanics were pushed to their absolute limit, and the game was made more competitive and granted a much higher skill ceiling than ever intended by the developers due to the developers' preference to make the game fun and rewarding and deep rather than developing the mechanics around balance (for the most part anyways, melee is arguably a result of many engine exploits never even discovered in development) parrying in street fighter 3 defines the meta, the more mileage a character can get from a parry = the better that character is in the tiers. the same can be said for overarching tech skill in melee, and movement/aim in quake (especially things like bhopping and rocket jumping which, wouldn't you know carried over into TFC and to a point TF2 by extension) modenr competitive games make an effort to cap their mechanics and make sure nothing exploitable can/would be used in competitive play, and it results in some of the most sterile and uninteresting competitive environments simply for the sake of balance and accessibility. just because street fighter 3's parrying made the game horribly unbalanced doesnt mean it's less competitive, since parrying as a mechanic still means the worst characters can succeed when played masterfully. Just because the cap for mobility in TF2 makes the soldier arguably the best class in the game doesn't mean that the lack of class balance is uncompetitive, I'd take that any day over overwatch's complete disregard for any sort of skillful mechanics. it's that sort of disregard for balance in favor of complex mechanics that makes competitive games so great. you look at a game like overwatch or street fighter 5 or smash 4 and they all completely lack any of that. players are left grasping at whatever slight mechanical complexity they can grasp (e.g. bidou or perfect pivots in smash 4) when players would be so much happier with unbalanced competitive mechanics that would make the game that much deeper. there's a reason that street fighter 3 and melee and quake have been actively played for 15-20+ years and games like USFIV are dropped as soon as the next installment comes around, and you can bet your ass the same will happen with "Overwatch 2" or whatever successor comes around. and that is EXACTLY why Overwatch can't hope to kill TF2. By being a source game, built on quake mechanics, TF2 is fundamentally deep simply by virtue of its engine IF nothing else. and there is a whole lot else.[/QUOTE] You can't just hope your game is competitively viable letting the community find advanced techniques. Melee, as far as anyone can tell, was a mistake in the sense that it wasn't supposed to be a high tech fighting game, but a casual party game. Of course, the legacy it's leaving is astonishing, but that doesn't mean unbalanced mechanics are a good idea. You can still make a competitive game, it's just that most of the gaming market is targeted towards casual gamers. I think Project M's aim was great, as the team tried their hardest to balance all the characters. Of course, it's not perfect, but the top tiers to bottom tiers in PM is roughly the same as the top ~10 characters in Melee. Now we're seeing a trend in gaming where you dumb down the mechanics to make your players feel good. You see it with Overwatch, and with how Quake Champions shifted from an arena shooter to a hero shooter. These games are very friendly to new players, as opposed to me wave shining someone in Melee. The new competitive games are also not getting any sort of attraction in the market when they're made. Look at Toxikk, a great return to the Arena shooter genre, but it never got popular, and about 50 or so people play it each day. As gaming gets more popular, the level of gameplay will be toned down to a more friendly level, leaving new competitive games in the dust, or not existing at all.

[QUOTE=vevota;52527180]You can't just hope your game is competitively viable letting the community find advanced techniques. Melee, as far as anyone can tell, was a mistake in the sense that it wasn't supposed to be a high tech fighting game, but a casual party game. Of course, the legacy it's leaving is astonishing, but that doesn't mean unbalanced mechanics are a good idea. You can still make a competitive game, it's just that most of the gaming market is targeted towards casual gamers. I think Project M's aim was great, as the team tried their hardest to balance all the characters. Of course, it's not perfect, but the top tiers to bottom tiers in PM is roughly the same as the top ~10 characters in Melee. Now we're seeing a trend in gaming where you dumb down the mechanics to make your players feel good. You see it with Overwatch, and with how Quake Champions shifted from an arena shooter to a hero shooter. These games are very friendly to new players, as opposed to me wave shining someone in Melee. The new competitive games are also not getting any sort of attraction in the market when they're made. Look at Toxikk, a great return to the Arena shooter genre, but it never got popular, and about 50 or so people play it each day. As gaming gets more popular, the level of gameplay will be toned down to a more friendly level, leaving new competitive games in the dust, or not existing at all.[/QUOTE] This is why i get bored watching competitive overwatch. Its a fun casual game with a lot of the movement and skills of TF2 bottled up behind ability buttons, but at the end of the day, coordinated ulti vomit on to objectives and piddling around chokes until the scripted dive play gets made is not terribly interesting or hard to do. Compare that to say CSGO or TF2, where someone can shoot or knife their way out of the jaws of defeat by pure movement and deathmatch, that mechanically is a lot more fun to see how plays unfold.

Part of the reason why I don't like Overwatch as much is the TTK. It's so low at its base, but then you add abilities into play and it feels like random crits multiplied by 3.

[QUOTE=knifekeeper;52527382]Part of the reason why I don't like Overwatch as much is the TTK. It's so low at its base, but then you add abilities into play and it feels like random crits multiplied by 3.[/QUOTE] In addition, hard counters are present so you stand no chance in certain matchups.

[QUOTE=vevota;52527180]You can't just hope your game is competitively viable letting the community find advanced techniques. Melee, as far as anyone can tell, was a mistake in the sense that it wasn't supposed to be a high tech fighting game, but a casual party game. Of course, the legacy it's leaving is astonishing, but that doesn't mean unbalanced mechanics are a good idea. You can still make a competitive game, it's just that most of the gaming market is targeted towards casual gamers. I think Project M's aim was great, as the team tried their hardest to balance all the characters. Of course, it's not perfect, but the top tiers to bottom tiers in PM is roughly the same as the top ~10 characters in Melee. Now we're seeing a trend in gaming where you dumb down the mechanics to make your players feel good. You see it with Overwatch, and with how Quake Champions shifted from an arena shooter to a hero shooter. These games are very friendly to new players, as opposed to me wave shining someone in Melee. The new competitive games are also not getting any sort of attraction in the market when they're made. Look at Toxikk, a great return to the Arena shooter genre, but it never got popular, and about 50 or so people play it each day. As gaming gets more popular, the level of gameplay will be toned down to a more friendly level, leaving new competitive games in the dust, or not existing at all.[/QUOTE] you're excusing shallow game design because "it sells better and casuals want it" when [I]competitive games shouldnt be catered towards casual players[/I] I never said that you should "hope" your game is viable, parrying was a very deliberate mechanic and the designers fully understood its potential. the only thing they didnt know was who could use it best and they couldnt feasibly balance around it in the long run since there wasn't update potential at the time.

Have new voicelines been confirmed for the update? If so I wonder what relevance they would have to it.

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52527477]Have new voicelines been confirmed for the update? If so I wonder what relevance they would have to it.[/QUOTE] Nathan Vetterlein mentioned months ago he recorded lines for an update that has yet to reach the public.

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52527477]Have new voicelines been confirmed for the update? If so I wonder what relevance they would have to it.[/QUOTE] A friend of mine who's friend with john Patrick lowre (the sniper) said that he recorded some lines for an update. But that was last year. [sp]i met him for some coffee last year and was too embarrassed to ask about it[/sp]

Not to drop names but I personally served marc Laidlaw a double order of fries at McDonald's last Tuesday and he said he recorded some ms. Pauling voice lines for the new update

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52527953]Not to drop names but I personally served marc Laidlaw a double order of fries at McDonald's last Tuesday and he said he recorded some ms. Pauling voice lines for the new update[/QUOTE] .... Really?

[QUOTE=ikes;52527471]you're excusing shallow game design because "it sells better and casuals want it" when [I]competitive games shouldnt be catered towards casual players[/I][/QUOTE] I think everyone here would agree with that. But no company wants to take the risk of making a game like that. Every competitive game with advanced techniques either stemmed from previous renditions or have heavy roots from a similar genre. I don't see any company innovating a whole new IP solely based on competitive; it simply poses too much of a risk.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52527953]Not to drop names but I personally served marc Laidlaw a double order of fries at McDonald's last Tuesday and he said he recorded some ms. Pauling voice lines for the new update[/QUOTE] I know it sounds like "my father works at Sony" but it's real. My friend is an animator who's working on a game called the "church in the darkness" that John and Ellen are doing voices for it. [t]https://my.mixtape.moe/waypgb.JPG[/t] Picture of me and john at Starbucks. I will snip if it's unrelated

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52527953]Not to drop names but I personally served marc Laidlaw a double order of fries at McDonald's last Tuesday and he said he recorded some ms. Pauling voice lines for the new update[/QUOTE] I imagine you gave him his fries and said "Here you go Mr. Laidlaw!"

[QUOTE=rolfum;52525440]what if you had to be level 5 in casual to actually start playing with players, and before that you only play with bots, like how paladins does it? if anything this would surely slow hackers down after getting vacced since they would need to grind a bit before being able to ruin a game, and get plenty of them too bored to keep doing it, and required tutorials would also help[/QUOTE] New players get a subpar impersonal first impression and hackers just set up an idling scheme.

[QUOTE=vevota;52527978]I think everyone here would agree with that. But no company wants to take the risk of making a game like that. Every competitive game with advanced techniques either stemmed from previous renditions or have heavy roots from a similar genre. I don't see any company innovating a whole new IP solely based on competitive; it simply poses too much of a risk.[/QUOTE] A casual game doesn't need to be dumbed down or so easy that it lacks skill depth in order to pander to new/bad players. Instead, it needs to be understandable and balanced for play at a basic level, as well as having a clear skill progression that allows for enjoyment at all levels. This is where a lot of games fail- they do this by "building competitive from the ground up" while unwittingly creating an environment where the game's fun is only had after reaching the top percent of the skill range to the point where youre slaughtering new players that aren't having any fun dying to you, just like you weren't. Allowing the high end players to completely control the game's fun as a hoarded resource is not good. While this looks exactly like what you're supposed to do on paper, it doesn't actually work out that well in practice. Take TF2 for instance. A pair of premiership-level players will be able to handily demolish casual matches, but at the same time still are [I]able[/I] to be defeated by teamwork, counterpicks, etc. And also defeat said things too- this back and forth is limited only by the imagination and resourcefulness of the users, which is a wonderful thing. The game isn't dumbed down any, as you still have all the tools and abilities those premiership players do; you just have to use them.

hello guys, any advance or news about the update yet? havent been around

[QUOTE=IJCT;52528106]hello guys, any advance or news about the update yet? havent been around[/QUOTE] Speculating as always. The only thing that is confirmed are medals for contests and events will be added soon and they are not related to the jungle/pyro update

watch the entire update launch this week