TF2 General Chat and Update Speculation Station - One of Several Edition - Games

funny how the Pyro right now is pretty accurate and realistic, the real life flame thrower makes victims suffer a horribly painful death (afterburn), but it's a pretty shit weapon due to its range (especially man controlled flame throwers, the type that uses propane) as an army can easily single out flame thrower operators as high priority targets and using snipers, except when facing a group which isn't capable of that and can't aim where it's effective (pubs)

[QUOTE=GLH;52541875]The Righteous Bison, it's so bad not even pub players can complain.[/QUOTE] Trust me that downward spiral that is /r/tf2 ive seen many complain about the "massive damage" it could deal over a distance [editline]5th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Nebrassy;52541900]funny how the Pyro right now is pretty accurate and realistic, the real life flame thrower makes victims suffer a horribly painful death (afterburn), but it's a pretty shit weapon due to its range (especially man controlled flame throwers, the type that uses propane) as an army can easily single out flame thrower operators as high priority targets and using snipers, except when facing a group which isn't capable of that and can't aim where it's effective (pubs)[/QUOTE] I guess we need the good ol napalm flamethrower

[QUOTE=turshitposter;52541880]the sun on a stick?[/QUOTE] Shortly after tough break, I made a horrible decision of browsing tf2's steam discussion, I saw over 20 threads/comments complaining about how the wrap assassin became terribly overpowered and unfair after the TB changes

It hurts me to read those comments that "pubs are irrelevant" "everything is OP to pub players" and other displays of elitism like that. I, for instance, play pubs only, because i have hard time communicating in team, yet i find phl0g pyro's immensely handicapping themselves. And not me alone. It's not about pubs/comp, it's about understanding the game or not understanding it. Competitive environment may be the epitomy of skill, and coordination, and being great as a person overall, but that doesn't mean that players who don't play 6v6 or with their mics constantly on should be looked down upon. Also somewhat on-topic; scouts are much more dangerous animals with random spread toggled off. Usually they are reluctant to attack from distance because it could very well be wasted shot, but when it's off, and scout [I]knows[/I] that it's off - they gain a considerable measure of range, changing the way game plays between servers with it on and off noticeably, even though it's more of a psychology thing, than gameplay. Interestingly i didn't notice same with heavys yet, even though it affects them in same way and amount [U](edit: just checked, somehow it's unaffected indeed, despite effectively being rapid-firing shotgun[/U]). Why i bring this up, is because it will be interesting to see how quickly people will adapt, if long anticipated update changes random spread to off by default.

[QUOTE=st00pid;52541963]Interestingly i didn't notice same with heavys yet, even though it affects them in same way and amount.[/QUOTE] What? I thought Heavy's Minigun spread was always random

I know we already went through it but if you are still not convinced mannpower development is being lead by someone that isn't a perma member of the TF Team: [IMG]https://my.mixtape.moe/pnxeoq.png[/IMG] They gave a reason to a balancing change in an Update log. The TF-Team NEVER does that, they keep those to attached to a blogpost.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52541958]Shortly after tough break, I made a horrible decision of browsing tf2's steam discussion, I saw over 20 threads/comments complaining about how the wrap assassin became terribly overpowered and unfair after the TB changes[/QUOTE] what? how so??

seeing that we are still kinda on the topic of glitches n exploits, when is valve gonna fix the replay achievements? i need that front line field recorder edit: o jeez i forgot to refresh my page, i guess we are not on exploits and glitches...

[QUOTE=Fluury;52541989]I know we already went through it but if you are still not convinced mannpower development is being lead by someone that isn't a perma member of the TF Team: [IMG]https://my.mixtape.moe/pnxeoq.png[/IMG] They gave a reason to a balancing change in an Update log. The TF-Team NEVER does that, they keep those to attached to a blogpost.[/QUOTE] they provided reasons for nearly all the changes in the balance change blog post.

[QUOTE=Drury;52541839]It's OP in pubs UP in competitive. Not balanced in the slightest.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Blackavar;52541828]It's 100% useless in competitive.[/QUOTE] Pyro, as a class, doesn't have a meaningful role in 6v6 until one of the teams is defending their last point, in which case the stock flamethrower is the best weapon. Balancing the Phlog for a competitive format is pointless because Pyro isn't even going to be played most of the time.

[QUOTE=Doodle966;52542028]they provided reasons for nearly all the changes in the balance change blog post.[/QUOTE] And I said exactly that, read the entire post. They keep those attached to blogposts, and only do so recently, they never put those in patch notes.

[QUOTE=Super Glue;52542059]Pyro, as a class, doesn't have a meaningful role in 6v6 until one of the teams is defending their last point, in which case the stock flamethrower is the best weapon. Balancing the Phlog for a competitive format is pointless because Pyro isn't even going to be played most of the time.[/QUOTE] Which is why the Pyro update needs to overhaul his mechanics, make him stronger in a few ways, give him more mobility, and secure a role in 6v6 for the class, that doesn't involve airblasting an uber on last.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52542064]Which is why the Pyro update needs to overhaul his mechanics, make him stronger in a few ways, give him more mobility, and secure a role in 6v6 for the class, that doesn't involve airblasting an uber on last.[/QUOTE] Pyro is a specialist and doesn't need a role in competitive because all he would do is slow down the game and most likely use up a scout slot, which is the most important class in the game.

[QUOTE=Super Glue;52542079]Pyro is a specialist and doesn't need a role in competitive because all he would do is slow down the game and most likely use up a scout slot, which is the most important class in the game.[/QUOTE] The Pyro specializes in dying, things that Pyro does are performed better by most classes -- not just Scout and Spy -- due to having low burst damage, unremarkable mobility, and horrible crowd control (flanking) and Engineer and Heavy (defensive holds). The only thing propping Pyro up at the moment in competitive is compression blast, and that's mostly when used to hold a defensive position (in 6s) or to protect someone else from the Spy (in highlander). Unlike Soldier who is the jack of all trades, Pyro is simply the master of none.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52542098]The Pyro specializes in dying, things that Pyro does are performed better by most classes -- not just Scout and Spy -- due to having low burst damage, unremarkable mobility, and horrible crowd control (flanking) and Engineer and Heavy (defensive holds). The only thing propping Pyro up at the moment in competitive is compression blast, and that's mostly when used to hold a defensive position (in 6s) or to protect someone else from the Spy (in highlander). Unlike Soldier who is the jack of all trades, Pyro is simply the master of none.[/QUOTE] But there's no conceivable way to remedy this fact without tossing out the concept of the whole class. Most of Pyro's abilites and class attributes are right where they should be.

Can someone confirm/test something for me? Since the recent patches, it seems like you no longer get heads from DR spies via the Eyelander anymore.

[QUOTE=Chuggoth;52542191]Make pyro mid range viable and buff afterburn. Meet the Pyro showed what the class is supposed to be, an agressor that will punish enemies careless enough to be in his line of sight.[/QUOTE] There has to be another way, afterburn is such a cheap way to day, especially when you killed the pyro and he still gets you bc one of your team mates with near full health took your health pack.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52542098]The Pyro specializes in dying, things that Pyro does are performed better by most classes -- not just Scout and Spy -- due to having low burst damage, unremarkable mobility, and horrible crowd control (flanking) and Engineer and Heavy (defensive holds). The only thing propping Pyro up at the moment in competitive is compression blast, and that's mostly when used to hold a defensive position (in 6s) or to protect someone else from the Spy (in highlander). Unlike Soldier who is the jack of all trades, Pyro is simply the master of none.[/QUOTE] Tell that to te never ending waves of kamikaze pyros

[QUOTE=Fluury;52542147]Can someone confirm/test something for me? Since the recent patches, it seems like you no longer get heads from DR spies via the Eyelander anymore.[/QUOTE] Was just in a server with a friend, it still works.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52542098]The Pyro specializes in dying[/QUOTE] I think that title goes to Spy :v:

[QUOTE=Chuggoth;52542251]Buff afterburn damage,reduce duration. Your enemies have to scatter in panic, searching for safety. That's called crowd control.Something that pyro was advertised to do.[/QUOTE] Pyro already has that effect on enemies, problem is it's not really all that useful. Heavy same story. I mean you made a couple of people backpedal for a while, yay?

Had my first dream about the update releasing. It all goes downhill from here.

a lot of those pyro reworks seem to come from people who do not understand nor have played as extensively as it would require to be fully aware of what a solution would be. just saying. also unsure if it has been mentioned but casual has this odd bug that will cause the pre-round countdown twice in a round, with the second time fully disabling music and any asociated voicelines

My issue with Pyro is that afterburn lasts 30 years. I'd rather the Pyro have neat effects like slowdowns etc than die because this particular map doesn't have a medpack anywhere nearby. (Or because some idiot pubbie topped off his HP)

[QUOTE=Agoat;52542613]My issue with Pyro is that afterburn lasts 30 years. I'd rather the Pyro have neat effects like slowdowns etc than die because this particular map doesn't have a medpack anywhere nearby. (Or because some idiot pubbie topped off his HP)[/QUOTE] As a note, mostly every comp player under the sun hates movement negating effects. Especially ones that cut your movement speed as a whole as in most situations, isn't entirely fair to fight against. And as an example why afterburn isn't a good idea for slowdown; you get tapped by a Scorch Shot from across the map? That's a shame, here's a nice -20% movement speed along with your nice afterburn damage. Movement negation can be fair in the instance of one-time stuff like explosive knockback, but continuous movement removal tends to really get people pissed off. And you don't want that as a design in your weapon or you get shit like Mei from OW...

[QUOTE=Agoat;52542613]My issue with Pyro is that afterburn lasts 30 years. I'd rather the Pyro have neat effects like slowdowns etc than die because this particular map doesn't have a medpack anywhere nearby. (Or because some idiot pubbie topped off his HP)[/QUOTE] good thing there's half a dozen ways to extinguish

[QUOTE=X marks it;52542639]And as an example why afterburn isn't a good idea for slowdown; you get tapped by a Scorch Shot from across the map? That's a shame, here's a nice -20% movement speed along with your nice afterburn damage.[/QUOTE] Pyro shouldn't even be able to light you on fire from across the map as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see a rework along the lines of the further away you are from the Pyro, the less afterburn damage you sustain.

[QUOTE=Agoat;52542613]My issue with Pyro is that afterburn lasts 30 years. I'd rather the Pyro have neat effects like slowdowns etc than die because this particular map doesn't have a medpack anywhere nearby. (Or because some idiot pubbie topped off his HP)[/QUOTE] I can guarantee you that in all these years the ratio of people dying from direct fire vs dying from afterburn is what, 6:1? as hellmet mentioned afterburn is a bonus that is more of a bonus effect on spies other than any other class, but its hardly ever a thing given how many ways are out there to nullify it. its one of the reasons why that afterburn nerf on the degreaser is insignificant, if not pointless.

[QUOTE=X marks it;52542639]As a note, mostly every comp player under the sun hates movement negating effects. Especially ones that cut your movement speed as a whole as in most situations, isn't entirely fair to fight against. And as an example why afterburn isn't a good idea for slowdown; you get tapped by a Scorch Shot from across the map? That's a shame, here's a nice -20% movement speed along with your nice afterburn damage. Movement negation can be fair in the instance of one-time stuff like explosive knockback, but continuous movement removal tends to really get people pissed off. And you don't want that as a design in your weapon or you get shit like Mei from OW...[/QUOTE] I was just putting out an example. I would rather there be interesting effects instead of taking damage over time. No idea what I'd add in though, so that's a moot point.

The afterburn's duration being based on how long you took direct damage from the flamethrower still seems like the best and simplest solution.