Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52450423]I will gladly sacrifice a hat generation to the retire gods if that means we can get a Iron Curtain strangifier[/QUOTE] Hmm, I don't think that's within AARP's power.

I'd be a happy man if they were to just do what they did in mid-2012 with the new Community Hats once a week again.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52450423] Iron Curtain strangifier [/QUOTE] Technology isn't there yet.

[QUOTE=gjw22;52448865]I really don't even see why they haven't handed it over to someone else already, other than $$ of course.[/QUOTE] If they were interested in the money they would make magnitudes more by stopping all development of tf and move to working on steam itself. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52449369]So let me get this straight, this entire roadmap thing is based on an unverified email tyler got from somebody claiming to be from valve?[/QUOTE] If I understand correctly it was a few sources that corrabotated it, but they were all anonymous, so in all possibility it could just be one person.

[QUOTE=Youme;52450226]I entirely disagree about this. Before (excepting the shitshow that went on with invasion) we had small groups that worked hard to make a full thing. By grouping up and producing high quality work it reduced uncertainty. I knew I was going to get paid for my work in EOTL regardless of whether snowplow shipped or not. When I joined Mayann it was a handful of people, working in the same way. We'll create something rad, something that Valve would be silly to snub, the work we invested was low risk. Then they changed how they want to work with updates and now it's open to everyone and anyone. So the chance of any particular piece of work being included goes down [I]dramatically[/I], and there's no safety buffer of the team leader ensuring everyone is paid for the work they did, even if it got cut. Valve's change in policy turned fairly low risk spec work into [I]extremely[/I] high risk spec work, and as any freelancer will tell you: Fuck spec work. This is why I'm finishing pl_ququmannz and arena_sacrifice for the Mayann team and then I'm bouncing from TF2. I love the game, I love making levels for it, but I hate working for free. At one point I wanted to make TF2 level work my dayjob, but Valve have made that impossible for me[/QUOTE] Nothing is stopping you working still in a small group of people and doing that high quality work. Many maps are made today like that, such as Lazarus that void is working with. The issue before was that small group of people were favored over all others. Now everyone has equal chance to produce out something nice and to be selected by Valve for use - if its good enough to their standards. You're now in the same boat as everyone is. We all love doing maps for TF2 and there never was guarantee of getting something into the game, only a chance. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;52450246] Then again valve does have a history of leaving almost no profit for community contributors.Even when you could buy their hat direcly from the store.[/QUOTE] Can we get a source for this? Because i don't believe you.

[QUOTE=Youme;52450226]I entirely disagree about this. Before (excepting the shitshow that went on with invasion) we had small groups that worked hard to make a full thing. By grouping up and producing high quality work it reduced uncertainty. I knew I was going to get paid for my work in EOTL regardless of whether snowplow shipped or not. When I joined Mayann it was a handful of people, working in the same way. We'll create something rad, something that Valve would be silly to snub, the work we invested was low risk. Then they changed how they want to work with updates and now it's open to everyone and anyone. So the chance of any particular piece of work being included goes down [I]dramatically[/I], and there's no safety buffer of the team leader ensuring everyone is paid for the work they did, even if it got cut. Valve's change in policy turned fairly low risk spec work into [I]extremely[/I] high risk spec work, and as any freelancer will tell you: Fuck spec work. This is why I'm finishing pl_ququmannz and arena_sacrifice for the Mayann team and then I'm bouncing from TF2. I love the game, I love making levels for it, but I hate working for free. At one point I wanted to make TF2 level work my dayjob, but Valve have made that impossible for me[/QUOTE] when you're guaranteed to be paid for work that isnt put in the game, you're being paid for effectively no tangible contribution it's also extremely exclusionary to anyone not in the team, and there is a degree of influence that neodos and ronin and void have that other community members don't have. it would just be a bunch of updates with those few folks at the helm and their trusted group of contributors which would create a massive divide between the different echelons in the workshop hierarchy, and in the end would be less conducive to a friendly workshop environment. A lot of competition and bad blood would arise in the workshop. this is bad. the workshop isnt a frontier for monopolies to rise and business to be created, it's not built like that.

Need thoughts on this. What if whenever you leveled up in casual you get a random weapon or hat and then remove the random item drop system for casual?

[QUOTE=prizepool;52450882]Need thoughts on this. What if whenever you leveled up in casual you get a random weapon or hat and then remove the random item drop system for casual?[/QUOTE] I'm going to be straight with you. That idea is up there with casual leaver penalties and class limits for quick play in terms of really, really, really stupid ideas.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52450887]I'm going to be straight with you. That idea is up there with casual leaver penalties and class limits for quick play in terms of really, really, really stupid ideas.[/QUOTE] Alright, that's all I needed to know

[QUOTE=ikes;52450858]when you're guaranteed to be paid for work that isnt put in the game, you're being paid for effectively no tangible contribution[/QUOTE] That's not how it works for employees on payroll working on content that gets cut, it's not how it works for freelancers who work on projects their client doesn't ship. Everyone along the process is paid for the work that they did, not their contribution to the shipped result. It [I]should[/I] be no different for community managed group projects like EOTL/Invasion/Mayann. [QUOTE=ikes;52450858]it's also extremely exclusionary to anyone not in the team[/QUOTE] People grouping up and working together is not exclusionary at all. Anyone who is capable of making good content and working well in a team has just as much ability to group up some people and produce great stuff. Suggesting that because half a dozen people are working on one little project another half dozen can't form another group to work on another project is rather silly. There are enough people making good workshop stuff to form many strong teams. [QUOTE=ikes;52450858]and there is a degree of influence that neodos and ronin and void have that other community members don't have. it would just be a bunch of updates with those few folks at the helm and their trusted group of contributors which would create a massive divide between the different echelons in the workshop hierarchy, and in the end would be less conducive to a friendly workshop environment. A lot of competition and bad blood would arise in the workshop. this is bad.[/QUOTE] Gaining influence is as easy as making something good and getting it out there. You think McVee had any influence before he put out that amazing trailer? Nope. He made something good, put it out there and bam, he has influence. Losing influence is as easy as being bad to people you work with, would you willingly work with neodos and ronin today? Besides, update after update produced by the same team is only a bad thing if they come at the expense of other teams making prospective updates. As far as I can see there were no teams that were being ignored in favour of any others. I'm not saying that the new way is better or worse for TF2, or better or worse for 'the community at large' I'm saying it's worse for me and the people like me who wanted to dedicate time and energy into making this a career option. I [I]thought[/I] TF2 was about to enter a golden era of community driven updates after EOTL and leading up to Invasion. But Invasion's bullshit put a stopper on that and now I think it's over. I'd love this Jungle update to go fantastically and prove me wrong, but I'm not going to hold my breath for a miracle.

what if every 10-15 levels you gained in casual, you got a random untradable hat drop, using the same hat pool as item drops?

[QUOTE=rolfum;52450966]what if every 10-15 levels you gained in casual, you got a random untradable hat drop, using the same hat pool as item drops?[/QUOTE] I'd rather a medal that levels and changes appearance the higher the level you are, as opposed to random untradable hat drops. Proof that you leveled in casual or something. If anything those hat drops will further hinder F2P backpack space.

Quit the "Rewards on Levels" in Casual idea. The main flaw of this is that the more you level up, the slower the progress becomes - tying drops to that would basically stop you from getting any drops after a certain level, making the progress of getting new weapons slow and making it feel more like a chore. An alternative to this system is making a second, "Unlocks" Bar that would always require the same amount of XP to fill - that would make item drops work on "level" work. I'm in favor of reworking the drop system as atm it has idling as a problem and doesn't really feel very "player-driven". But I also dont want community servers to further get excluded from the game.

[QUOTE=Youme;52450965] Besides, update after update produced by the same team is only a bad thing if they come at the expense of other teams making prospective updates. As far as I can see there were no teams that were being ignored in favour of any others.[/QUOTE] the fact that you think updates should be done by community teams by default is a problem in itself. some artists don't stay in the loop. some only have time to do this every once in a while and not actively participate in a "team." they would miss the boat to join these projects, and never get anything in if it became the default way to make updates. the workshop is meant for everyone, not for anyone outside valve to act as gatekeepers, nor for cronyism.

Coming from someone who has worked on Invasion, I'm actually really glad Valve has gone with the themed updates route from here on out. Groups working in secrecy from the start never felt right because of how inclusive they can be. It can lead to a lot of problems down the line if a huge lump sum is promised in the end if Valve gives you any sort of approval. The promise of a lot of money can lead to disastrous results in the absolute worst-case scenario, and can divide a project into hierarchies that should never be there in the first place. There's good and bad outcomes to small groups such as these, and individual results definitely vary. Invasion just happened to be the worst-case scenario, and it should never, ever happen again. Invasion was handled by people that had other intentions in mind in the grand scheme of everything and I hope to everything good out there that another project never has to suffer from anything similar again. I'm sure other initially private group projects have been handled better, no doubt. I just really like the open ended-ness to what Valve has brought to the table and welcome it with open arms. Something like this [I]needs[/I] to be handled in such a way to prevent another bad, greedy outcome again. With everything said, you [I]can[/I] still work in groups on high-quality projects and have it also work on a public level so it doesn't exclude anybody. Community map packs come to mind as an example- It gets people excited to create something with new things! Made by a small group of people at first, but then released freely for others to use and feel included into something that hopefully many others will enjoy. Creating things for everyone to share is a beautiful thing, and seeing it actually happen with the announcement of the jungle theme has been fun to watch. People within the community have been making jungle assets left and right for map makers to share, item creators are exploring ways to make cosmetics fit the jungle theme, while also posting what they're making as they make it. I love it so much. It's nice to have some degree of certainty, sure, but doing tf2 work is never 100% certain. I wish it was myself! But if it means having to work in a private, select group of people pitching an update to the tf2 team, while leaving the rest of the community out of the loop? It doesn't sit right with me. Being a part of Invasion and seeing it all unfold firsthand never felt good. No matter if a group project goes good or bad, you're gonna have a handful of people who create things for tf2 feel left out and terrible. I've seen many people post to the MUS and Emporium threads after community updates like Robo Boogaloo/EOTL/Invasion go live wishing with all of their might that they could've done more to help or feel like they were a part of...Something. [I]Anything.[/I] Maybe I'm being soft, I don't know. Even with the bad that was Invasion, I'm happy it did happen so others never feel left out anymore. I welcome the new themed update approach, [URL="http://i.imgur.com/rtG9XAx.png"]it's even like a similar idea me and a few others toyed with long ago for fun[/URL] so the community had cool, new themes to play with. I hope the themed updates continue, it's been a breath of fresh air I feel the entire community needed after many ups and downs. It gets people creating, and it also gives a good amount of time for these creations to actually happen.

Hello Dude and Dudettes. My name is new, pleased to meet y'all :) [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost - Welcome to FP, these type of posts get you banned" - Reagy))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=heinous;52451191]the fact that you think updates should be done by community teams by default is a problem in itself. some artists don't stay in the loop. some only have time to do this every once in a while and not actively participate in a "team." they would miss the boat to join these projects, and never get anything in if it became the default way to make updates. the workshop is meant for everyone, not for anyone outside valve to act as gatekeepers, nor for cronyism.[/QUOTE] Who said [I]anything[/I] about team made updates being the [I]only[/I] way to do updates? And again, who's saying [I]anything[/I] about people other than Valve being gatekeepers to workshop stuff? Small teams making updates doesn't somehow magically prevent the workshop from existing, and it shouldn't prevent Valve from taking stuff from the workshop either. I saw a future where team made updates live side by side with ad hoc contributions from the workshop, and side by side with Valve's own updates. None of these things are mutually exclusive. None of these things is the [I]only[/I] way things should be done. All of these ways to make stuff for TF2 [I]could[/I] and [I]should[/I] coexist.

[QUOTE=rolfum;52450966]what if every 10-15 levels you gained in casual, you got a random untradable hat drop, using the same hat pool as item drops?[/QUOTE] This is genius. We could all get the hats we want without thinking twice about the economy and actually enjoying them. The fact that they're untrade-able only makes me want them more since there's no urge to sell them when the market spikes. It'd also get me to play the hell out of the game. A hat every few hours, for winning matches? That's an easy way to get me hooked on TF again, and put some pressure on the fate of the battle.

[QUOTE=Youme;52451256]Who said [I]anything[/I] about team made updates being the [I]only[/I] way to do updates? And again, who's saying [I]anything[/I] about people other than Valve being gatekeepers to workshop stuff? Small teams making updates doesn't somehow magically prevent the workshop from existing, and it shouldn't prevent Valve from taking stuff from the workshop either. I saw a future where team made updates live side by side with ad hoc contributions from the workshop, and side by side with Valve's own updates. None of these things are mutually exclusive. None of these things is the [I]only[/I] way things should be done. All of these ways to make stuff for TF2 [I]could[/I] and [I]should[/I] coexist.[/QUOTE] if you think that such a side by side arrangement is possible at all to be entirely equal in chance for team members and non team members having their items accepted, then there is no point being part of the team in the first place. like it or not, the team arrangement is gatekeeping.

[QUOTE=Youme;52451256]Who said [I]anything[/I] about team made updates being the [I]only[/I] way to do updates? And again, who's saying [I]anything[/I] about people other than Valve being gatekeepers to workshop stuff? Small teams making updates doesn't somehow magically prevent the workshop from existing, and it shouldn't prevent Valve from taking stuff from the workshop either. I saw a future where team made updates live side by side with ad hoc contributions from the workshop, and side by side with Valve's own updates. None of these things are mutually exclusive. None of these things is the [I]only[/I] way things should be done. All of these ways to make stuff for TF2 [I]could[/I] and [I]should[/I] coexist.[/QUOTE] I thought the workshop was supposed to be: "users create content for TF2, valve selects popular, quality content to add to it" Not "Trusted user group makes backroom deal with valve, items get added/not added on inclusion rather than quality" Invasion struck me as a move towards the latter when observing the 40% of submitted content that was actually added.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52451316]I thought the workshop was supposed to be: "users create content for TF2, valve selects popular, quality content to add to it" Not "Trusted user group makes backroom deal with valve, items get added/not added on inclusion rather than quality" Invasion struck me as a move towards the latter when observing the 40% of submitted content that was actually added.[/QUOTE] This is the stuff I've always been to afraid to say. As a nobody on the workshop I was sure if I ever brought this kind of subject up I'd be dog piled for being "butthurt".

Dota 2 went through a period of much the same issue: Items weren't getting in unless you partnered with a pro player or a tournament ticket/compendium. It also then went through a period of extremely questionable sets and couriers made quickly just to jump in on the gravy train. I am pretty essentially a nobody on the workshop, but Invasion being a community update that excluded the community until the very last minute has never sat well with me. It messes with the spirit of what a "community" update is supposed to be, in my opinion.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52451339]This is the stuff I've always been to afraid to say. As a nobody on the workshop I was sure if I ever brought this kind of subject up I'd be dog piled for being "butthurt".[/QUOTE] this is a big reason I'm not a fan of the general facepunch attitude. Peoples' reputation feels too important rather than their opinions being judged on their own It's worth it to just speak your mind and put your important thoughts out there man, reputation and status be damned

i have to say i agree with everything being said here, things like the jungle update and the batman/tomb raider promos are really good at making it more community focused while the career item makers at the top still end up getting a majority of the items accepted because they're simply the best and most prolific artists around. the people at the top make enough money to live, new contributors get a chance to get something in and get paid for their efforts and valve get to have the final say and keep things fair without leaving random people to try and fairly distribute lots of money, can't say there's much i dislike about it.

So are we throwing new, inexperienced and fresh modelers under the bus, or Old, established and incredibly connected modelers under the bus? Because either way your pissing off a semi-loudish chunk of the community and the last time they did that we got fucking ganked with the content drought. [DEL]Personally I would be fine if we threw the person who made that spycrab ''hat'' under the bus since that is up there with the fucking SUCKER SLUG as the ugliest hat in the game outside of the banana, and I bet that was [U]only[/U] in there BECAUSE THEY WERE A OLD EXPERIENCED MODELER, but I don't know maybe he has a nice apartment or something[/DEL]

[QUOTE=DatHarry;52451358]the people at the top make enough money to live[/QUOTE] Is anyone [I]actually [/I]earning a liveable wage month to month though? I'm getting money from one of the most well paid maps and one of the better key arrangements and I'm not even covering my cheap rent

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52451363]So are we throwing new, inexperienced and fresh modelers under the bus, or Old, established and incredibly connected modelers under the bus? Because either way your pissing off a semi-loudish chunk of the community and the last time they did that we got fucking ganked. [sp]Personally I would be fine if we threw the person who made that spycrab ' 'hat' ' under the bus since that is up there with the fucking SUCKER SLUG as the ugliest hat in the game outside of the banana, but I don't know maybe he has a nice apartment[/sp][/QUOTE] No modelers being thrown under the bus. Old, exclusionary system for community updates being thrown under the buss. Speaking honestly, this is the first community update I feel like I could get something in. Sure, there are more people on the guest list this time, but at least I'm on it too.

[QUOTE=Youme;52451369]Is anyone [I]actually [/I]earning a liveable wage month to month though? I'm getting money from one of the most well paid maps and one of the better key arrangements and I'm not even covering my cheap rent[/QUOTE] It's very possible to make a nice living off the workshop as a cosmetic contributor, yeah edit: Didn't you read [url=http://www.kritzkast.com/mym-day-2-of-3]Meet Your Maker[/url]?

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52451363]So are we throwing new, inexperienced and fresh modelers under the bus, or Old, established and incredibly connected modelers under the bus? Because either way your pissing off a semi-loudish chunk of the community and the last time they did that we got fucking ganked. [sp]Personally I would be fine if we threw the person who made that spycrab ' 'hat' ' under the bus since that is up there with the fucking SUCKER SLUG as the ugliest hat in the game outside of the banana, but I don't know maybe he has a nice apartment or something[/sp][/QUOTE] Those experienced modelers produce quality work, and because of it have a greater chance to get stuff in under the new system anyway. The only difference is they may be sharing cratespace with quality items from lesser known contributors. I'd take that over sucker slugs and banana hats any day.

i hope valve does that summer cooler thing where it's multiple series of crates, for more items. there are enough jungle items that they can have themed crates, like one for a series of camo items, one for tribal ones, one for pets, etc. that would even allow valve to have data on which type of cosmetics sell better, and they love data.