Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=heinous;52451384]i hope valve does that summer cooler thing where it's multiple series of crates, for more items. there are enough jungle items that they can have themed crates, like one for a series of camo items, one for tribal ones, one for pets, etc. that would even allow valve to have data on which type of cosmetics sell better, and they love data.[/QUOTE] I hadn't thought of this. I really liked those coolers and they added a ton of content. I like the idea of the crates having themes as well. Would be nice if someone on the TF2 team saw this suggestion.

[QUOTE=NeoDement;52451377]edit: Didn't you read [url=http://www.kritzkast.com/mym-day-2-of-3]Meet Your Maker[/url]?[/QUOTE] That was 3 years ago. I was making well past rent 3 years ago!

[QUOTE=Youme;52451394]That was 3 years ago. I was making well past rent 3 years ago![/QUOTE] Hmm well personally my monthly average hasn't gone down since this interview

[QUOTE=NeoDement;52451395]Hmm well personally my monthly average hasn't gone down since this interview[/QUOTE] i imagine the regular crate key is the most stable source of income, which i am sure you have and i am guessing he does not.

[QUOTE=heinous;52451403]i imagine the regular crate key is the most stable source of income, which i am sure you have and i am guessing he does not.[/QUOTE] I was just responding to "Is anyone actually earning a liveable wage month to month though?", lots of people are

[QUOTE=heinous;52451403]i imagine the regular crate key is the most stable source of income, which i am sure you have and i am guessing he does not.[/QUOTE] Actually, having items being sold directly in the store is the biggest source of income for contributors. Getting a reasonable amount of items accepted in the early years of TF2, when items got into crates, and later into the store (or into the store directly) made it much more profitable and steady for item makers. Nowadays, not so much. Items go into limited cases and contributors only get a small cut of the keys from said cases.

[QUOTE=NeoDement;52451395]Hmm well personally my monthly average hasn't gone down since this interview[/QUOTE] To be fair, the amount of stuff that you've had a small or noticable part in has been the same since like forever. I mean for gods sake you have like 6 complete sets, multiple hats and cosmetics that are merc grade or higher, been in like 4 different halloween crates, and thats not even including End of The Line, Electric Booagloo and Invasion, where you had a decent amount of cash from the Valve to cosmetic split ([U]and[/U] even on the leaked spreadsheet, where you 'contributed' to some of the items).

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52451415]To be fair, the amount of stuff that you've had a small or noticable part in has been the same since like forever. I mean for gods sake you have like 6 complete sets, 2 hats that are elite grade, been in like 4 different halloween crates, and thats not even including End of The Line and Invasion.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying it's possible to make a living and I know quite a lot of contributors that are doing it

[QUOTE=Youme;52450226]I entirely disagree about this. Before (excepting the shitshow that went on with invasion) we had small groups that worked hard to make a full thing. By grouping up and producing high quality work it reduced uncertainty. I knew I was going to get paid for my work in EOTL regardless of whether snowplow shipped or not. When I joined Mayann it was a handful of people, working in the same way. We'll create something rad, something that Valve would be silly to snub, the work we invested was low risk. Then they changed how they want to work with updates and now it's open to everyone and anyone. So the chance of any particular piece of work being included goes down [I]dramatically[/I], and there's no safety buffer of the team leader ensuring everyone is paid for the work they did, even if it got cut. Valve's change in policy turned fairly low risk spec work into [I]extremely[/I] high risk spec work, and as any freelancer will tell you: Fuck spec work. This is why I'm finishing pl_ququmannz and arena_sacrifice for the Mayann team and then I'm bouncing from TF2. I love the game, I love making levels for it, but I hate working for free. At one point I wanted to make TF2 level work my dayjob, but Valve have made that impossible for me[/QUOTE] Thinking that anything related to making stuff for TF2 was "Fairly low risk spec work" is just flat out egotistical. If you ever though "hey, lets make stuff for TF2 so I can make a living off TF2 content creation" you're so far out of touch of the TF2 community and think so highly of yourself, I'm not sure anyone can or should steer you back. Ontop of that, if you thought that the whole "people working in teams on updates" wasn't exclusionary you're blind to the problem. It was and even from the inside of MULTIPLE of those teams - it was clear as freaking day. It was a clique culture that excluded people - you're guilty of this - hell, I'm guilty of this and I regret it. This new policy is far better for the community and all content creators. Come on YM, you can be better than this.

unless you're neodement or SVDL and you KNOW for a fact that you can consistently see your work in-game, you shouldn't be working on TF2 with the intention of living off of it. Hell, even if you CAN reliably make a living off of it, you should still be working on it out of passion over anything else

The good side of workshop being a high risk spec thing is allowing amateurs and people with passion to produce content for a game they love and have a chance to get some income of it. It it was low risk, you would end up with people from industry coming and providing much better content in terms of quality and design, leaving no chance for amateur scene to grow.

[QUOTE=Serious_Greg;52451498]this would be a horrible idea to implement now, with the current case system (or even without it really), as it would give some people pretty huge and unfair advanatage, while leaving others with nothing, just because they weren't so lucky to get an item in a certain type of crate they already have all the data for that from previously added items of same themes tho, obviously nobody wants to buy tribal/mayan/aztec/jungle stuff, while tacticool/war/camo items and pocket pets is what would sell the best :p[/QUOTE] im actually surprised at the popularity of most of my in-game items considering i havent made or had accepted a single tacticool/military item (unless you count the diplomat/peak but those are much more formal than what I'm talking about) I guess I'm the odd one out :thinking:

[QUOTE=GetGrenade;52451510]The good side of workshop being a high risk spec thing is allowing amateurs and people with passion to produce content for a game they love and have a chance to get some income of it. It it was low risk, you would end up with people from industry coming and providing much better content in terms of quality and design, leaving no chance for amateur scene to grow.[/QUOTE] I refuse to believe that when stuff like the Sucker Slug and the Brain Warming Wear exists and can be bought on the market. Although at least the Brain-Warming Wear had a novice behind it (with the help of VLEK anyway) The Brain Slug however, having two big names (Sedimentary and SDVL) attached to it, and also being a Elite grade, has no excuse. That hat, at least compared to other heavy items from invasion, had no right to be that high and that rare other than the two big names behind it. ALSO: [B][U]POLL TIME[/U][/B] [url]http://www.strawpoll.me/13395630[/url]

[QUOTE=ikes;52451513]im actually surprised at the popularity of most of my in-game items considering i havent made or had accepted a single tacticool/military item (unless you count the diplomat/peak but those are much more formal than what I'm talking about) I guess I'm the odd one out :thinking:[/QUOTE] Who doesn't love sombrero engie and vacation hoovy though

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52451533] ALSO: [B][U]POLL TIME[/U][/B] [url]http://www.strawpoll.me/13395630[/url][/QUOTE] I'll vote yes every week until the update actually happens.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52451533]I refuse to believe that when stuff like the Sucker Slug and the Brain Warming Wear exists and can be bought on the market. Although at least the Brain-Warming Wear had a novice behind it (with the help of VLEK anyway) The Brain Slug however, having two big names (Sedimentary and SDVL) attached to it and also being a Elite grade as well. That hat, at least compared to other heavy items from invasion, had no right to be that high and that rare other than the two big names behind it. ALSO: [B][U]POLL TIME[/U][/B] [URL]http://www.strawpoll.me/13395630[/URL][/QUOTE] that hat confuses me just as much as everyone else

[QUOTE=Ihauoli;52451554]I'll vote yes every week until the update actually happens.[/QUOTE] With all the little hints Valve have put out, there's absolutely no chance it's the coming week

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52451533] ALSO: [B][U]POLL TIME[/U][/B] [url]http://www.strawpoll.me/13395630[/url][/QUOTE] I'm going with no only because we haven't gotten VNN's email answered. Also, [QUOTE=Fluury;52435293] My hopes for today are extremely high though - even though I have prepared a number of bell gifs in case of nothing dropping tonight.[/QUOTE] When are we getting the rest of those gifs?

[QUOTE=LightFlock;52451579]With all the little hints Valve have put out, there's absolutely no chance it's the coming week[/QUOTE] The only "hint" that would say "toweek is not toweek" is the super generic email some mappers have gotten. And that, for all we know, couldve been worked out already, for all we know. [QUOTE=housejojo06;52451587]I'm going with no only because we haven't gotten VNN's email answered. Also, When are we getting the rest of those gifs?[/QUOTE] To week, when we all gather once again on the fated Wednesday night.

[QUOTE=JPRAS;52451413]Actually, having items being sold directly in the store is the biggest source of income for contributors. Getting a reasonable amount of items accepted in the early years of TF2, when items got into crates, and later into the store (or into the store directly) made it much more profitable and steady for item makers. Nowadays, not so much. Items go into limited cases and contributors only get a small cut of the keys from said cases.[/QUOTE] I think Valve should add cosmetic items to the Mann Co store 6 months to a year after the crate comes out to give item creators extra revenue. [QUOTE=Stroheim;52451533]I refuse to believe that when stuff like the Sucker Slug and the Brain Warming Wear exists and can be bought on the market. Although at least the Brain-Warming Wear had a novice behind it (with the help of VLEK anyway) The Brain Slug however, having two big names (Sedimentary and SDVL) attached to it, and also being a Elite grade, has no excuse. That hat, at least compared to other heavy items from invasion, had no right to be that high and that rare other than the two big names behind it. ALSO: [B][U]POLL TIME[/U][/B] [url]http://www.strawpoll.me/13395630[/url][/QUOTE] A better poll would be will we be on a new thread before Valve announces the update on the blog (the answer is of course yes).

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52451690]I think Valve should add cosmetic items to the Mann Co store 6 months to a year after the crate comes out to give item creators extra revenue. [B]A better poll would be will we be on a new thread before Valve announces the update on the blog (the answer is of course yes).[/B][/QUOTE] If that is the case, the title should/will be [B]"STILL The Most (adjective) Update Ever".[/B] Because that title was good, damnit.

[QUOTE=ikes;52451466]unless you're neodement or SVDL and you KNOW for a fact that you can consistently see your work in-game, you shouldn't be working on TF2 with the intention of living off of it. Hell, even if you CAN reliably make a living off of it, you should still be working on it out of passion over anything else[/QUOTE] That's kind of sad to hear. =/ I wouldn't mind getting one of my idea's into the game, although I'd be doing it more for passion then trying to get money out of it personally. Been a gamer for so long, just like the idea that I was able to add something to the game that I helped create. Although sadly, just being an artist the most I could contribute is the concept of the idea heh. But hey, maybe some day it'll happen so who knows.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52451883]Although sadly, just being an artist the most I could contribute is the concept of the idea heh. But hey, maybe some day it'll happen so who knows.[/QUOTE] If it's original don't fear posting to the emporium, I'm sure more concept artists is always welcome. Although I've been out of the loop for making conceptual art since 2015 after [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Catastrophic_Companions"]something[/URL] semi-similar and not Halloween related got in instead. Still salty about that...

This update is water and I feel like i'm in the desert with a thirst beyond compare. Hopefully the oasis we seek is just upon the horizon waiting my friends. Or will it just be a mirage that will vanish into thin air, pulverizing any and all false hope that came with the belief of possible relief...?

[QUOTE=X marks it;52451932]If it's original don't fear posting to the emporium, I'm sure more concept artists is always welcome. Although I've been out of the loop for making conceptual art since 2015 after [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Catastrophic_Companions"]something[/URL] semi-similar and not Halloween related got in instead. Still salty about that...[/QUOTE] I know the feeling lol, I made a concept for a shooting stars unusual effect back in September 2015 and only posted it on Gamebanana only to find out later on someone got one in last Halloween. Not that it bothers me though, cause I just honestly wanted a shooting star unusual effect lol. I've been working on lately just trying to draw the merc's better, well outside of pyro which I've already had three sprays of from scratch. Maybe when I can get them down pat better I'll start uploading stuff there. Even if they don't get any takers, it could also give me feed back on improving my concepts I'd hope at least.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52451883]That's kind of sad to hear. =/ I wouldn't mind getting one of my idea's into the game, although I'd be doing it more for passion then trying to get money out of it personally. Been a gamer for so long, just like the idea that I was able to add something to the game that I helped create. Although sadly, just being an artist the most I could contribute is the concept of the idea heh. But hey, maybe some day it'll happen so who knows.[/QUOTE] If you have the passion to make even concept art for a new item, definitely go for it. For the longest time the most I ever contributed to tf2 was silly fanart, but I got noticed for it, and did a few artwork pieces for Robotic Boogaloo long ago. I never knew you could actually make items for the game up until that point, and started making concept art for the game because it sounded like such a fun idea. Nothing's wrong with just doing concept art at all- if you dream big, getting an item in-game is a very big possibility! Though I got my first self-made years ago, in the latest Winter update I got a [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/9/95/Flammable_Favor.png?t=20161230014738"]self-made[/URL] for the [URL="http://i.imgur.com/78GIBmW.png"]very first concept I ever created[/URL]. Even though I had no idea about the workshop, I doodled this up years ago because I felt like doing so on a whim. Once I found out people who did stuff for the workshop could actually help me bring it into reality, it changed my world completely. It brought a huge smile to my face and I haven't stopped doing this all since. Making items has turned into a real fun hobby, I even picked up learning how to texture not too long ago! I'm sure you've heard of the Emporium thread but you should check it out if you wanna create some fun things for the game. Always let your passion be your main drive, the money is just an extra little bonus. As long as you keep having fun, that's the best reward of all. You should try it out! [QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52451995]I've been working on lately just trying to draw the merc's better, well outside of pyro which I've already had three sprays of from scratch. Maybe when I can get them down pat better I'll start uploading stuff there. Even if they don't get any takers, it could also give me feed back on improving my concepts I'd hope at least.[/QUOTE] If you need concept bases, here's a [URL="http://imgur.com/a/bl3sX"]few[/URL] that I made for people to use awhile back. It should make drawing ideas out a lot easier, if you choose to do so!

[QUOTE=Fr0z3n;52451457]Thinking that anything related to making stuff for TF2 was "Fairly low risk spec work" is just flat out egotistical.[/QUOTE] I think that [i]on a purely logical level[/i] you can consider the current Jungle update to be spec work for community contributors. To quote [url]www.nospec.com:[/url] [quote]Spec work is any kind of creative work, either partial or completed, submitted by designers to prospective clients before designers secure both their work and equitable fees. Under these conditions, designers will often be asked to submit work in the guise of a contest or an entry exam on existing jobs as a “test” of their skill. In addition, designers normally lose all rights to their creative work because they failed to protect themselves with a contract or agreement. The clients often use this freely-gained work as they see fit without fear of legal repercussion.[/quote] It doesn't perfectly fit the definition they give, but it does more or less outline what this update is: A contest where designers create content with no guaranteed pay. However, also think looking at it this way ignores a lot of context. As someone involved with the TF2 mapping community, here's how I see it: The Jungle Update is effectively a competition, and there's not really any way around that. However, the nature of the contest makes it different from other competitions of a similar variety. Architecture competitions usually involve firms putting together proposals to the client, not actual construction documents. It's a couple of weeks of hard work (by employees with a salary [sometimes]) instead of the months it takes to make a good map. Valve is asking for finished products, which means trying to behave as a professional freelancer looking for work to make money just doesn't make sense. Entering a competition of this scope cannot be ethical for a person in that position. Most people aren't putting themselves in that position, and the people who are getting hurt are the ones who put themselves there. A competition like this can really only be ethical if everyone involved treats it as a hobby instead of as a job (maybe - more on that in a bit). I can't blame the people who tried to treat it as a job, as they are people with a specific set of skills (modelling/mapping for not just any game, but one specific game that they are good at) who saw a way to support themselves financially. In retrospect it seems like a dumb mistake, but I could say that about a lot of things that seemed smart at the time. So, from earlier: "A competition like this can really only be ethical if everyone involved treats it as a hobby." I'm not totally sure if this is a true statement - In the past, Valve didn't announce any sort of parameters for what they wanted in the game. People made maps for the fun of it and [i]maybe[/i] you got a map in the game, but it was such a vague goal that you couldn't really aim at it. This lack of a goal also means comparing maps to one another is rather difficult unless they happen to be of a similar gamemode or theme. With the Jungle Update, Valve is more or less asking the community to make content that fits a specific set of parameters, which means creators have less freedom in what they make. Is that inherently bad because people have less freedom? Not really, as a good competition will offer a theme that can be approached in a variety of ways. Does it become bad when there's several other people making other things that also fit the same criteria? Potentially. It becomes much easier to compare one in-development map to another, and I've been in architecture school long enough to know that project-to-project comparison can turn people against each other. I don't think the TF2 mapping scene is competitive enough for this to happen on a large scale, but I think that's also just because of the nature of the people in the community. Many mappers collaborate with each other, releasing content packs of custom content made specifically for their own map or doing odd jobs for other people's maps because they're good at a specific skill, etc. A different set of people could turn the whole thing sour. If everyone decides to compete, then you begin to have people pushing the bar for the sake of trying to have a better map than the rest. Other people respond to that escalation of effort put into a map, and it goes back and forth until the bar is so high that people are effectively treating it as a job, and we're back into the unethical territory. I've also seen this in architecture school, where students spend unreasonable hours on projects because they want to have not just a good project, but the best project (especially relevant when there's a cash prize involved). I think it's reasonable to be concerned about the new format, but there's a number of reasons why I don't think it's inherently bad. However, this format has proven itself harmful in other fields and I think we need to be aware of why we might be different so that we can keep it that way.

I just don't want another crate with a bunch of awful eyewear again.

The idea that "anybody who can make good content can make an update" is delusional. Iron gauntlet had enough good content to fill a large update but despite that it never went anywhere for a multitude of reasons, including the lead contributors not being as "credible" as people with existing valve connections, the update not having enough "PR" in terms of SFM or update page, as well as valve not having much interest in mvm in general these days. Frontline conversely has plenty of good content and plenty of credible contributors, but still hasn't been acknowledged simply because valve is more busy with jungle. So to say "just make a good community update :)" is plain wrong.

[QUOTE=ikes;52451466]unless you're neodement or SVDL and you KNOW for a fact that you can consistently see your work in-game, you shouldn't be working on TF2 with the intention of living off of it. Hell, even if you CAN reliably make a living off of it, you should still be working on it out of passion over anything else[/QUOTE] Eh, I don't know if I really agree. There is money to be made in the strangest of places.