Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52316769]1. Profitability and passion. Of course, you have more experience interacting with Valve than I do, but given how Valve treats lucrative IPs, it doesn't appear to operate like a company in pursuit of greater and greater profit. That being said, creative interest appears to motivate more than any bonuses earned from the success of your product. (I don't know what the pay scale is at Valve, but if the [I]Dota 2[/I] team members were making more based on the superior profitability of their product, hardly anyone would work on TF2. Perhaps that is the case; perhaps that is why they're so comparatively understaffed?) 2. Cosmetics. 3. Certainly not the hats--I'd estimate hardly anyone tries TF2 because they seek some gaudily resplendent skin or hat. Rather, the economy and cosmetic system is but one of many systems put in place to foster dedication and retention, which ultimately translates into profit. If the gameplay were unsatisfying, I can't imagine the economy buttressing the game enough to preserve its popularity. And even then, why would we want the game to go on life support? While it is true that skins galvanized Counter-Strike's playerbase, other games such as [I]League of Legends[/I] remain staples of their respective genres without the assistance of an economy, supposedly based purely on the strength of their gameplay. You are underestimating how important the [I]game[/I] portion of this game is.[/QUOTE] Honeslty if valve was focused as much on money making as other AAA companies out there, they would be barely working on any games of their own at all. Steam makes Valve sooooo much money in comparison to their games since Steam is such a widespread distrubutor compared to other companies' PC platforms.

[QUOTE=CoolJosh3k;52317435]One of the few things I would want to see, is Valve changing to no random crits.[/QUOTE] Jill is apparently on team no crits already.

I highly doubt random crits was ever a mechanic developers were "proud" or "supportive" of. It was just at the time a necessary gamble to avoid making the game one sided when a certain team/player is objectively better than the other. With the inclusion of a competitive mode they might be free to explore alternative reworks, but I doubt they'll ever fully remove random crits from pubs purely because of the infamy they've gained

I thought the Pyroland was a comp test server? Do we know what the Pyroland servers are?

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;52317557]Honeslty if valve was focused as much on money making as other AAA companies out there, they would be barely working on any games of their own at all. Steam makes Valve sooooo much money in comparison to their games since Steam is such a widespread distrubutor compared to other companies' PC platforms.[/QUOTE] Good business does not see one become complacent, and most companies will pursue as many different sources of revenue as possible. Valve lets sources of revenue slip through their fingers on a daily basis.

[QUOTE=valvenews;52317651]I thought the Pyroland was a comp test server? Do we know what the Pyroland servers are?[/QUOTE] We've got two variants of unused TF2 Servers afaik, Pyroland and Maintenance Servers (?). Pyroland Servers aren't always there and mostly pop up before Major Updates, so Im rolling with them just being unactivated or unassigned stock Servers. Maintenance Servers are always there and change at any time to a real Server. (Really unsure about this but the Pyroland shit really does only appear when they've got something big coming)

[QUOTE=Punchy;52317621]I highly doubt random crits was ever a mechanic developers were "proud" or "supportive" of. It was just at the time a necessary gamble to avoid making the game one sided when a certain team/player is objectively better than the other. With the inclusion of a competitive mode they might be free to explore alternative reworks, but I doubt they'll ever fully remove random crits from pubs purely because of the infamy they've gained[/QUOTE] So they won't remove something that's been widely hated since launch, and unanimously so by skilled players... ...Because they're known for being something awful?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52317700]So they won't remove something that's been widely hated since launch, and unanimously so by skilled players... ...Because they're known for being something awful?[/QUOTE] They're iconic. They're currently integral to the balance of several weapons. while nobody likes getting killed by them, a lot of people enjoy getting kills with them. I think valve would be hesitant to remove them because they're a staple of oldschool tf2, and they already get enough flak for making competitive formats official alone.

[QUOTE=Punchy;52317732]They're iconic. They're currently integral to the balance of several weapons. while nobody likes getting killed by them, a lot of people enjoy getting kills with them. I think valve would be hesitant to remove them because they're a staple of oldschool tf2, and they already get enough flak for making competitive formats official alone.[/QUOTE] I mean they managed to mess with the standard, almost sacred cow tier quickplay server formula, even though a good 75% of the player base thought that was fucking dumb. At this point I wouldn't put it past them to mess with old loved things because [U] C H A N G E I S G O O D, right?[/U].

[QUOTE=Punchy;52317732]They're iconic. They're currently integral to the balance of several weapons. while nobody likes getting killed by them, a lot of people enjoy getting kills with them. I think valve would be hesitant to remove them because they're a staple of oldschool tf2, and they already get enough flak for making competitive formats official alone.[/QUOTE] After Gumettle, i think most of the community was made aware that we're not going back to old TF2. This was firmly cemented in MyM. Damage spread, autobalance, and the old contribution system were all relics from the past that were done away with once they were no longer relevant. So too, with random crits, as this is no longer stock 2007 TF in need of "spicing up" with randomness. Not having a competitive environment in a modern game because a dwindling population of purists want to keep the game random and unbalanced seems counterintuitive to the profit goals mentioned earlier. And no, someone has to say it, and I will; the people who enjoy unfair kills are objectively wrong in doing so, and would likely be better off in a game that's fully committed to the integration of luck and skill; a la poker. (Zeno has made these points already)

isnt two cities the first example of valve realizing heavy isnt good at tanking so they made it medic's job instead

[QUOTE=Punchy;52317732]a lot of people enjoy getting kills with them.[/QUOTE] The most I get from killing someone with a random crit is a small giggle then about 10 minutes of a shameful feeling in my gut

[QUOTE=rolfum;52317943]then about 10 minutes of a shameful feeling in my gut[/QUOTE] Why? It's not like you did "bind m1 +crit"... People tend to overreact to random crits. Yes, crits are stupid. Yes, crits are frustrating, but god dammit, people often get WAY too emotional when react to crits, on both sides of the crit.

As far as I'm concerned if Valve is serious about merging or viewing he casual and comp community as one community and not separate ones like DRiller said they neeed to get rid of random crits and do a full rebalance around the lack of random crits.

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;52317975]Okay I just came back from a 4 day vacation/festival and see 300 new posts. What happened? Can I get a quick rundown?[/QUOTE] [url]https://youtu.be/stnV0f3RlEA[/url]

Some weapons could use a "can deal random crits" attribute though, like the Holiday Punch. Random crits sure do suck when you are playing Medic.

[QUOTE=CoolJosh3k;52318368]Some weapons could use a "can deal random crits" attribute though, like the Holiday Punch. Random crits sure do suck when you are playing Medic.[/QUOTE] Alternatively, random crits could be left only for melee, mostly stock - that would probably make them a bit more competitively viable, since currently the only use for melee is speed boost, resistances etc

[QUOTE=kos8bit;52318383]Alternatively, random crits could be left only for melee, mostly stock - that would probably make them a bit more competitively viable, since currently the only use for melee is speed boost, resistances etc[/QUOTE] Any randomness has no place in competitive shooters.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52318412]Any randomness has no place in competitive shooters.[/QUOTE] Competitive games tend to have randomness, blackjack and all. MOBAs do too. Yeah, shooters don't have randomness, but allowing a weapon that is only designed for point-blank range to do triple damage very rarely would spice things up. Would make for plays which you didn't deserve, but once again, the enemy was in your melee range. If you were a spy, you'd have a guaranteed crit chance. Also, suiciding bushwacka snipers had non-random crits in competitive, and no one complained. Soldier has a guaranteed crit on a type of approach he would choose to get to a medic anyway. Pyro has an axtinguisher. Heavy has crit-inducing fists. Demoman can summon crits on himself, albeit harder than any of the above due to the amount of charge that you need. The meta would change a little, which is always refreshing. People rushing in with a melee onto a medic would be somewhat rarely viable, but still crap. The team protecting the medic could always combat this. Perhaps it would make pyro / FaN / whatever more viable as well, with airblast. Most important point: Why did you allow the enemy to be in melee range in the first place? Sure, you may rage on a f2p sniper that got an instakill on you with his Kukri, but you faced him in point-blank range, it's your fault. [B] There would be no use of the melee crit animations if crits wouldn't exist as well.[/B] ^ [B][I]Edited:[/I][/B] Kos brought up a good point on only leaving crits on for stock melees. It makes sense, really. 244 damage crit on a Skullcutter doesn't make sense. And utility-based weapons shouldn't be rewarded with the ability to crit. This should honestly be implemented; crit pan still needs to be a thing. It's legendary. [DEL]jill pls consider[/DEL]

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318531]Competitive games tend to have randomness, blackjack and all. MOBAs do too. Yeah, shooters don't have randomness, but allowing a weapon that is only designed for point-blank range to do triple damage very rarely would spice things up. Would make for plays which you didn't deserve, but once again, the enemy was in your melee range. If you were a spy, you'd have a guaranteed crit chance. Also, suiciding bushwacka snipers had non-random crits in competitive, and no one complained. Soldier has a guaranteed crit on a type of approach he would choose to get to a medic anyway. Pyro has an axtinguisher. Heavy has crit-inducing fists. Demoman can summon crits on himself, albeit harder than any of the above due to the amount of charge that you need. The meta would change a little, which is always refreshing. People rushing in with a melee onto a medic would be somewhat rarely viable, but still crap. The team protecting the medic could always combat this. Perhaps it would make pyro / FaN / whatever more viable as well, with airblast. Most important point: Why did you allow the enemy to be in melee range in the first place? Sure, you may rage on a f2p sniper that got an instakill on you with his Kukri, but you faced him in point-blank range, it's your fault. [B] There would be no use of the melee crit animations if crits wouldn't exist as well.[/B] ^ [B][I]Edited:[/I][/B] Kos brought up a good point on only leaving crits on for stock melees. It makes sense, really. 244 damage crit on a Skullcutter doesn't make sense. And utility-based weapons shouldn't be rewarded with the ability to crit. This should honestly be implemented; crit pan still needs to be a thing. It's legendary. [DEL]jill pls consider[/DEL][/QUOTE] Melee weapons are still situationally useful even with random crits disabled. They offer solid burst damage without much aim needed, and make for good finishers if you run out of ammo during a close range engagement. While it is true that they're less useful without random crits, I'm of the opinion that people shouldn't be relying on RNG to compensate of their lack of aiming skills (as they won't improve this way), or to survive situations they really had no business surviving. Melee crits mostly screw over Spies, Pyros, and to a lesser extent Scouts and other flanking close range attackers. They are still detrimental and disruptive like random crockets are, just to a lesser extent that affects certain classes disproportionately. Also, not seeing certain animations as often is hardly an argument for keeping a controversial gameplay feature. It's not even like you'd never see them, they'd still be there during crit boosts.

[QUOTE=-Banshee-;52318577]Melee weapons are still situationally useful even with random crits disabled. They offer solid burst damage without much aim needed, and make for good finishers if you run out of ammo during a close range engagement. While it is true that they're less useful without random crits, I'm of the opinion that people shouldn't be relying on RNG to compensate of their lack of aiming skills (as they won't improve this way), or to survive situations they really had no business surviving. Melee crits mostly screw over Spies, Pyros, and to a lesser extent Scouts and other flanking close range attackers. They are still detrimental and disruptive like random crockets are, just to a lesser extent that affects certain classes disproportionately. Also, not seeing certain animations as often is hardly an argument for keeping a controversial gameplay feature. It's not even like you'd never see them, they'd still be there during crit boosts.[/QUOTE] You are completely ignoring the fact that the said Spy, Pyro and Scout could just stay out of melee range if they aren't mentally challenged. (Spy could, you know, be stealthy? Pyro could airblast the meleeing people. Scout could EASILY outrun them, in fact all three of them could outrun a melee if they wanted to.) There are many ways to go around outranging the enemy like this. One of them being to bait them with coming point blank and immediately going away, making them think they can get an easy melee hit. However, they have a melee pulling-out animation going, which doesn't allow them to get said hit. [B]If a person is already holding the melee, don't come close. If a person is in a situation where he would use melee, stay just out of reach and watch out for that weapon switch animation.[/B] It's not relying on RNG. Melee is totally unreliable, and is punished by almost anything, except if you are a shotgun heavy on a very fat-based diet and you overextended right in front of someone's face. Sorry, but looking at things the "RNG is bad, pls remove" kind of way is just dumb without considering any other possibilities. The average level of a player is smart enough to know how to counter melee weapons. If they do crits and kill you, you are to blame for approaching them. [B]If a melee is used as a finisher, the crit is useless most of the time.[/B] For example, if you pipe somebody and manage to score a melee hit on the guy being juggled, (100+65+probably fall damage), it's most likely going to kill them either way, be it a crit or not. This way, the only time a crit is actually ""useful"" to the critting offender is when the defender committed a mistake. And yes, crit boosts rarely happen on most weapons. Kritzkrieg / Round wins are rare, have you ever seen a random guy having a kritzkrieg on his melee if he's not a demoknight which already sees the animation more than once or so? I haven't. On stock gamemodes.

[QUOTE=-Banshee-;52318577]They are still detrimental and disruptive like random crockets are, just to a lesser extent that affects certain classes disproportionately.[/QUOTE] The big difference being one can be avoided and the other can't in most situations. Nothing is fair about being sniped or insta-gibbed by a random 100+ damage crit spreadshot or 200+ damage explosive crit. If you've let the enemy be that close to you, you run the risk of taking more damage. Not to mention if the player doesn't pull of a crit, they're dealing less damage than what their primary or secondary could do in a fraction of the time spent positioning for the melee. Keeping random melee crits to me seems like preserving part of the adrenaline rushing factor from getting crits from the base game. Without heavily impacting and slanting the match like it currently does when a Soldier pulls of a random crit rocket for the 3rd time making it near impossible to actually defend a point without taking immense damage. On a side note, I get the meme that x3 damage is really unfair. But really the only hatred I see from it is the unavoidable ones, like a Spy being catched out by a medic or a soldier/demo panic spamming and getting a random crit. Getting punished for playing the game isn't fun, but getting punished for letting an enemy get THAT close to you is arguably fair.

[QUOTE=-Banshee-;52318577]Melee weapons are still situationally useful even with random crits disabled[/QUOTE] Stock melee weps are garbage, there is (almost) always a better option

I'd be fine with random melee crits on casual. Lots of weapons are balanced around it, and melee is either utility or a panic button.

Who the fuck came up with the idea of "Hey, lets add levels and random crits to mock RPGs like World of Warcraft :vs: "

[QUOTE=kos8bit;52318648]Stock melee weps are garbage, there is (almost) always a better option[/QUOTE] One possibility Valve could do to help balance stock weapons and the lack of random crits for melee would be to give the stock weapons higher base damage and all unlocks lower base damage (maybe something like 85 stock and keep unlocks at 65).

Certain melee weapons not being viable compared to their alternatives isn't an excuse to give them the capability to randomly one hit kill most of the game's classes. Valve is perfectly capable of making any balance changes they see fit should they decide to remove random crits.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52318712]One possibility Valve could do to help balance stock weapons and the lack of random crits for melee would be to give the stock weapons higher base damage and all unlocks lower base damage (maybe something like 85 stock and keep unlocks at 65).[/QUOTE] I find stats juggling boring, random crits at least would be a unique (to those weapons) mechanic

iirc in the hydro map demo they stated that they initially put random crits in for melee only in order to incentivize players to actually use it, as all of the stock weapons were designed to be better in every way compared to the melee system. This is also why melee weapons have much higher crit chances than guns and honestly, I agree with this idea (with the exception of demoknight). The only class that should get into melee range is spy and even then he has a major edge in melee fights. As for why guns randomly crit I have absolutely no idea, and this "feature" of guns randomly critting should be removed or reduced in the future.

Very extreme idea: copy mechanics from most popular melee unlockables for each class to stock, making those unlockables reskins of stock and making stock actually 100% viable [sp]I expected posts to merge, sorry[/sp]