Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52458362]dude you were so happy about the balance blogpost that made a ton of problematic weapons that inherently counter heavy no longer counter heavy[/QUOTE] This is valve we're talking about here. This is the dev team who thought "nah, the [I]brass beast[/I] is clearly too good, let's nerf it alongside the Natascha". Again. It's as if they get these crackpot ideas from the steam discussions or something.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52458399]This is valve we're talking about here. This is the dev team who thought "nah, the [I]brass beast[/I] is clearly too good, let's nerf it alongside the Natascha". Again. It's as if they get these crackpot ideas from the steam discussions or something.[/QUOTE] But this recent blog post was PERFECT. Every single balance change was well thought-through, complete with consultation from the competitive community. The only change I don't think will be so great is the YER, but we've yet to see how that will work in practice.

[QUOTE=JackRedPlayer;52458393]6 hours till the bell rings[/QUOTE] wat

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52458362]dude you were so happy about the balance blogpost that made a ton of problematic weapons that inherently counter heavy no longer counter heavy[/QUOTE] It's a joke--I hope.

[QUOTE=JackRedPlayer;52458393]6 hours till the bell rings[/QUOTE] Lol no need for that.

[QUOTE=runnerbeany;52458460]wat[/QUOTE] Let me explain: Often when we reach days where people are expecting an announcement/an Update, people will often - obviously - wait for the update/announcement they are expecting. After some time, the "hot" times where most blog posts/updates are releases passes, and people "ring the bell" - as in, drawing attention to the fact that we reached the time where we don't get any updates/blog posts anymore. Thus when someone "rings the update bell" - someone makes it clear that tonight, was not the night of the update/blog post dropping.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52458441]But this recent blog post was PERFECT. Every single balance change was well thought-through, complete with consultation from the competitive community. The only change I don't think will be so great is the YER, but we've yet to see how that will work in practice.[/QUOTE] It also isn't a complete list, subject to changes. And no, a few of the rebalances weren't perfect at all; adding RNG to the ambassador was questionable at best, and the razorback "nerf" changes almost no gameplay in casual, as the downside (medics tanking overhealed 4th and 5th snipers) just straight up doesn't happen. Also, why did they have to nerf the eviction notice in the same way as the GRU. I can understand a (possibly too) severe downside for the GRU, but the eviction notice was barely viable to begin with, and had a very niche role for when things were too violent for the GRU. And now, it's garbage.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52458505]Let me explain: Often when we reach days where people are expecting an announcement/an Update, people will often - obviously - wait for the update/announcement they are expecting. After some time, the "hot" times where most blog posts/updates are releases passes, and people "ring the bell" - as in, drawing attention to the fact that we reached the time where we don't get any updates/blog posts anymore. Thus when someone "rings the update bell" - someone makes it clear that tonight, was not the night of the update/blog post dropping.[/QUOTE] oh i see, thanks :D

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52458569]It also isn't a complete list, subject to changes. And no, a few of the rebalances weren't perfect at all; adding RNG to the ambassador was questionable at best, and the razorback "nerf" changes almost no gameplay in casual, as the downside (medics tanking overhealed 4th and 5th snipers) just straight up doesn't happen.[/QUOTE] Well, razorback doesn't seem OP in casual. The real problem here is that critical hits [B]nullify damage fall off based on distance[/B] When you land a critical hit the damage is multiplied x3 but also it becomes exempt from damage fall off based on distance. This could not be a problem with flare guns and some other projectile weapons, but becomes annoying with hitscan weapons. Ambassador or diamondback become tiny sniper rifles this way. I think crits should only deal x3 actual damage. x3 damage and no damage fall off have to be separated. Nothing more. But in the current situation maybe the RNG-based new stat was the only way to balance the gun to limit the weapon at long range, for Valve. The "Damage fall off based on distance" stat was maybe [I]too complicated for new players[/I] :P EDIT: i wrote random crits instead of crits

Random crits shouldn't exist to begin with. And no, while not OP, the fundamental problem with the razorback is that it creates a problem for the sniper's main counter passively, with no playstyle changes for the most part by the sniper which needs to be addressed; something this "nerf" failed to do. In fact, its even more annoying in casual now that the thing regenerates. This change accomplished nothing outside of highlander, who's metagame revolves around sniper-tanked picks.

I just never understood why Sniper needed an anti-backstab weapon. Why do we not have an allclass anti-headshot secondary then?

[QUOTE=Oizen;52458686]I just never understood why Sniper needed an anti-backstab weapon. Why do we not have an allclass anti-headshot secondary then?[/QUOTE] None of the other classes spend a significant time looking down a scope with borders that ensures tunnel vision?

[QUOTE=grif;52458740]None of the other classes spend a significant time looking down a scope with borders that ensures tunnel vision?[/QUOTE] ...From a position of complete safety behind his team/in spawn, far outside the effective ranges of 8 of the 9 classes, with the ability to one-shot all overhealed enemies, and for that matter instantly quickscope the health of 5 regardless of range? Gee, why would anything like that need counterplay.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52458569]It also isn't a complete list, subject to changes. And no, a few of the rebalances weren't perfect at all; adding RNG to the ambassador was questionable at best, and the razorback "nerf" changes almost no gameplay in casual, as the downside (medics tanking overhealed 4th and 5th snipers) just straight up doesn't happen. Also, why did they have to nerf the eviction notice in the same way as the GRU. I can understand a (possibly too) severe downside for the GRU, but the eviction notice was barely viable to begin with, and had a very niche role for when things were too violent for the GRU. And now, it's garbage.[/QUOTE] 1. The Ambassador change didn't "add RNG" to it. Have you seen [URL="http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL"]these images[/URL]? Even at mid-long range there is no real threat that your first shot will be massively inaccurate. And at short ranges, where the Ambassador is supposed to shine with a person of great skill, there is no difference at all. 2. Razorback was too powerful in a competitive environment. It allowed the Sniper to be immune to both pick classes when among his team (medic keeps him buffed to 185 for headshots, and a spy can't do jack shit when he can't kill him instantly). So, now if you equip the Razorback, you become weak to the enemy Sniper through the removal of your overheal. A perfect change. 3. As for the Eviction Notice, it's really not a nerf. -5 max hp/second is way less a downside than 20% damage vulnerability, if you're using it to fight. If you're using it to get somewhere, it's still half the downside as GRU, which was completely warranted. I'm actually really happy with the GRU change because now the GRU might possibly be unbanned in 6s, leading to the possibility of full-time Heavy in 6s meta. I still see no flaws in this balance post besides the YER.

Probably suggested time and time again.. How about we will leave random crits on melee weapons only, as you should be punished for allowing yourself to be attacked like that? RNGCrits can go to hell on main and secondary weaponry

[QUOTE=Creeps;52458851]as you should be punished for allowing yourself to be attacked like that? [/QUOTE] If you want that, then why don't we just give all melee weapons a triple damage buff, and let the Spy stab anywhere on the body of the enemy? After all, you let them get close. No. Remove random crits everywhere. They should never have existed.

[QUOTE=Creeps;52458851]Probably suggested time and time again.. How about we will leave random crits on melee weapons only, as you should be punished for allowing yourself to be attacked like that? RNGCrits can go to hell on main and secondary weaponry[/QUOTE] What about the Ubersaw and wrench though?

@Blackavar 1. Well that change failed then, because the whole point was to reduce the effectiveness at longer ranges. 2. I just answered this earlier, the issue has been solved in competitive just fine but still exists everywhere else. 3. Why the hell would i, as a heavy, equip something that gets me there marginally faster (demoman speed) and wait around for my max health to regen, when I could just walk to the front with stock and be ready to fight in the same or less amount of time anyway? This is a problem with the GRU nerf too, but the eviction notice grants so little speed in comparison that it's not even worth using if you have to piddle around after putting it away.

[QUOTE=Creeps;52458851]as you should be punished for allowing yourself to be attacked like that?[/QUOTE] It's not exactly a punishment if it's random, and the idea that you should be punished because someone managed to get a single melee hit on you is kinda silly in the first place. A lot of the time it's easy to judge the risk vs reward of letting someone getting close to you dependant on your weapons and health, but when random crits come into play you're just reliant on a dice roll, which really has no place in the game. It's my main problem with random crits when playing, you play an encounter such that they can get a hit or two on you but you'll still be able to kill them, then the RNG comes out and that forethought comes to nought. It's frustrating and removes a fair bit of skill from the game.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52458889] 3. Why the hell would i, as a heavy, equip something that gets me there marginally faster (demoman speed) and wait around for my max health to regen, when I could just walk to the front with stock and be ready to fight in the same or less amount of time anyway? This is a problem with the GRU nerf too, but the eviction notice grants so little speed in comparison that it's not even worth using if you have to piddle around after putting it away.[/QUOTE] You're not waiting around. Your medic is keeping you buffed with less health than a regular heavy, and you're fighting the enemy team while your health is regenerating. It's the sacrifice you make to get to mid with the rest of the team.

I really hope one of the new Pyro weapons will give him the damage output he needs to take on Sollies and Demos at mid range. Airblasting reflects projectiles, not splash damage, and those two can afford enough self damage to be able to thwart a Pyro strafing around them pretty easy.

It'd be kind of funny if September rolls around, still no update and an 11th hour blog post gets added that effectively says "Okay, we've tried desperately for a decade now but there is legitimately no way we can balance the pyro to be fun and fair so we just removed the flame thrower and just added an assault rifle for pyro because,I mean fuck dude, there is no fucking humanly way we can figure out how to change the flame thrower to be effective and balanced, source is fucked, particles are fucked, lag comp is FUBAR, after 10 years we are just done, sorry."

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52458916]You're not waiting around. Your medic is keeping you buffed with less health than a regular heavy, and you're fighting the enemy team while your health is regenerating. It's the sacrifice you make to get to mid with the rest of the team.[/QUOTE] The problem with nerfing the unlocks of the 6s off classes to make them compliant with the popular 6s metagame means they often are worse everywhere else. And that's bad, because most of TF2, the flagship game experience, is not community-rules 6s. (It could be, and that would be nice, but that isn't the point here) There is no fulltime pocket medic in regular TF2. And if it takes you 20ish seconds to run to mid and another 20 for your health to return to a fighting level (with the GRU this is even more prevalent), what's the point of using the weapon when you could simply walk and be ready to fight?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52458950]The problem with nerfing the unlocks of the 6s off classes to make them more metagame-compliant means they often are worse everywhere else. And that's bad, because most of TF2, the flagship game experience, is not 6s. (It could be, and that would be nice, but that isn't the point here) There is no fulltime pocket medic in regular TF2. And if it takes you 20ish seconds to run to mid and another 20 for your health to return to a fighting level (with the GRU this is even more prevalent), what's the point of using the weapon when you could simply walk and be ready to fight?[/QUOTE] What they stated in the blog post was very much true though. GRU currently stands as an unlock that buffs heavy against one of the classes main downsides, which was low mobility with a downside to the weapon itself that's so easy to negate it may as well not even be there. Personally I would have waited till the heavy's functionality was in a more stable state off hand, as I feel it's one of the games necessary evils sort of speak. Similar to weapons like the degreaser and dead ringer. I did feel the GRU needs an actual downside that matters over all. You also have to take into consideration that a lot of the other movement buffing abilities or unlocks require some sort of sacrifice or requirement to use as well. Soldiers and demomen need to hurt themselves to move around the map as fast as they do, same with the escape plan. Displenary action requires a teammate to hit to gain the movement speed. GRU you just need to pull them out and put them away before you get into actual combat. The only one that comes close to in comparison is the Power Jack, which is easier to use because the downside goes out of play the instant the pyro switches. I am wondering how fast Heavies HP will go back to normal when he puts the fists away though. Well, that and if there's a hard cap to how much health can be drained as well.

[QUOTE=Creeps;52458851]Probably suggested time and time again.. How about we will leave random crits on melee weapons only, as you should be punished for allowing yourself to be attacked like that? RNGCrits can go to hell on main and secondary weaponry[/QUOTE] I agree here. Melee crits should be a thing to keep you on edge. The next strike could be the last. Primaries? Nah. Imagine our newest engineer, papa.john07 was in one of these scenarios. John sees that the enemy heavy is on low hp after been severely wounded by a fellow demoman, bill05. John sees an oppourtunity for a melee strike and runs for him. Heavy gets random crits, goodbye John. A similar scenario occours. John hasn't learnt and still charges towards our favourite Russian. However, Heavy sees this and whips out his trusty Frying Pan. Knowing that the next shot could potentially insta kill, both parties are on edge. [B]The engineer gets the final blow on the Heavy.[/B] Conclusion: [B]John realises that every primary could potentially insta-kill, and also realises that he should play a game where damage is (roughly) the same. He still feels happy for coming out of the Hardware Shop fight alive, however.[/B] [B]TLDR: Keep crits on melee. [U]THAT HIT MAY BE HIS LAST.[/U][/B] I hope this explains it well

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52457495]You can't gift wrap untradable items since tough break[/QUOTE] fuck valve

[QUOTE=runnerbeany;52459043]I agree here. Melee crits should be a thing to keep you on edge. The next strike could be the last. Primaries? Nah. Imagine our newest engineer, papa.john07 was in one of these scenarios. John sees that the enemy heavy is on low hp after been severely wounded by a fellow demoman, bill05. John sees an oppourtunity for a melee strike and runs for him. Heavy gets random crits, goodbye John. A similar scenario occours. John hasn't learnt and still charges towards our favourite Russian. However, Heavy sees this and whips out his trusty Frying Pan. Knowing that the next shot could potentially insta kill, both parties are on edge. [B]The engineer gets the final blow on the Heavy.[/B] Conclusion: [B]John realises that every primary could potentially insta-kill, and also realises that he should play a game where damage is (roughly) the same. He still feels happy for coming out of the Hardware Shop fight alive, however.[/B] [B]TLDR: Keep crits on melee. [U]THAT HIT MAY BE HIS LAST.[/U][/B] I hope this explains it well[/QUOTE] then again, weakened or not, botting at a heavy, a class with some of the highest up close dpm, shouldn't be rewarded either.

[QUOTE=Jichael;52459057]then again, weakened or not, botting at a heavy, a class with some of the highest up close dpm, shouldn't be rewarded either.[/QUOTE] It's more that it could give a team that is almost failing a little bit of hope

When I eke out a win because I randomly crit'd their entire team into a 20 second respawn time, that doesn't feel good, it feels like the game is a random number generator and all the even numbers print a "you're winner" message whenever you give it a roll. I've never liked random crits, dishing them out or receiving them, even when I was utterly terrible at the game. It's just not fun. If a team is losing due to lower skill, they shouldn't win just for the hell of it, because winning becomes pointless. That's when you put in the fecking autoscramble lmao

Is it time to give up for today? Maybe 2 more hours?