Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=JackRedPlayer;52459119]Is it time to give up for today? Maybe 2 more hours?[/QUOTE] It was time to give up on today 2 days ago. There was absolutely no reason to hope for this week.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52458950]And that's bad, because most of TF2, the flagship game experience, is not community-rules 6s.[/QUOTE] Actually, the Razorback change seems to be a more Highlander-based change. But still, Valve wants TF2 to become a more competitive focused game, and is balancing based on competitive to reach that goal. Valve has stated they do not want weapons to have to be banned (if any weapons are still banned in community 6s, nobody will take Valve-6s/Comp MM seriously if overpowered weapons are allowed to be used). Razorback is banned. So they've changed it. GRU was banned. So they've changed it. This same process will occur for every banned weapon, until none are banned. Then they buff the "useless" weapons, perhaps so much that they get banned in community 6s. So Valve changes those weapons in a way that gets them unbanned. The cycle continues until basically all unlocks are considered viable and not overpowered. And just to restate it again in the same post: [B]The only way Valve Competitive Matchmaking will thrive is if there are no overpowered weapons, since Valve does not support the banning of weapons.[/B] So they look to the weapons banned in the Global Whitelist, as well as weapons commonly considered "annoying" by community majority, and change them to be less annoying, and less powerful.

[QUOTE=gjw22;52459122]It was time to give up on today 2 days ago. There was absolutely no reason to hope for this week.[/QUOTE] Plus it's Tuesday.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52458982]The Disciplinary Action requires a teammate to hit to gain the movement speed.[/QUOTE] Quick note, the Disciplinary Action is banned in 6s, since it lets the (pocket) Soldier get a Heavy to mid with no downside, other than poor uber building since he isn't using the Escape Plan. EDIT: You all need to look at the [URL="http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6"]Global 6v6 Whitelist[/URL] as it's pretty much the most important page for balancing right now.

[QUOTE=grif;52458740]None of the other classes spend a significant time looking down a scope with borders that ensures tunnel vision?[/QUOTE] gee its almost as if theres supposed to be downside to the ability to instakill at any range

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52458569]It also isn't a complete list, subject to changes. And no, a few of the rebalances weren't perfect at all; adding RNG to the ambassador was questionable at best, and the razorback "nerf" changes almost no gameplay in casual, as the downside (medics tanking overhealed 4th and 5th snipers) just straight up doesn't happen. [/QUOTE] The nerf didn't magically add rng to a game that had none of it, also I don't know why people keep saying they changed its accuracy to 50%, they didn't, but instead of perfect accuracy, it's now similar to the rest of the revolvers, with 50% less bullet spread making it more accurate than other revolvers And about the argument that it makes you miss a shot you perfectly aimed or get a lucky shot etc, would you use your stock revolver at this range? Would you use a pistol at this range? Would you use a shotgun at this range? No? Then why use the ambassador at this range?

hope they're gonna remove the explosive penalty off the DDS so it can get a little of its glory back

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459160]Quick note, the Disciplinary Action is banned in 6s, since it lets the (pocket) Soldier get a Heavy to mid with no downside, other than poor uber building since he isn't using the Escape Plan. EDIT: You all need to look at the [URL="http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6"]Global 6v6 Whitelist[/URL] as it's pretty much the most important page for balancing right now.[/QUOTE] I know about it, I was just comparing GRU currently with other movement abilities and unlocks that we currently have access to give more reasoning to why I felt the GRU needed an actual downside.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52459173]hope they're gonna remove the explosive penalty off the DDS so it can get a little of its glory back[/QUOTE] [B]New design:[/B] Counter ranged burn attacks (e.g. flares), and strengthen melee fights vs Pyros Afterburn immunity +50% fire resist It says new design. There is no explosive penalty. Or max health gain.

[QUOTE=Pissfuck;52459050]fuck valve[/QUOTE] at least they had the decency to make HOUWARs tradable, but i think it was a big glitch/scam that was happening to make them un-tradable

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459187][B]New design:[/B] Counter ranged burn attacks (e.g. flares), and strengthen melee fights vs Pyros Afterburn immunity +50% fire resist It says new design. There is no explosive penalty. Or max health gain.[/QUOTE] ironic that the DDS would only work vs 1 class. reminds me of another sniper secondary.

[QUOTE=gjw22;52459122]It was time to give up on today 2 days ago. There was absolutely no reason to hope for this week.[/QUOTE] we went over this, there is more than enough reason to believe this week could be the week. If we dont get anything tomorrow though, that is when you accept this week aint the week.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52459227]ironic that the DDS would only work vs 1 class. reminds me of another sniper secondary.[/QUOTE] I imagine Pyro will be come strong enough after this update to warrant an anti-fire item on Sniper. Let's just hope Pyro also gains a higher skill ceiling.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52458809]1. The Ambassador change didn't "add RNG" to it. Have you seen [URL="http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL"]these images[/URL]? Even at mid-long range there is no real threat that your first shot will be massively inaccurate. And at short ranges, where the Ambassador is supposed to shine with a person of great skill, there is no difference at all. 2. Razorback was too powerful in a competitive environment. It allowed the Sniper to be immune to both pick classes when among his team (medic keeps him buffed to 185 for headshots, and a spy can't do jack shit when he can't kill him instantly). So, now if you equip the Razorback, you become weak to the enemy Sniper through the removal of your overheal. A perfect change. 3. As for the Eviction Notice, it's really not a nerf. -5 max hp/second is way less a downside than 20% damage vulnerability, if you're using it to fight. If you're using it to get somewhere, it's still half the downside as GRU, which was completely warranted. I'm actually really happy with the GRU change because now the GRU might possibly be unbanned in 6s, leading to the possibility of full-time Heavy in 6s meta. I still see no flaws in this balance post besides the YER.[/QUOTE] its max HP that cant be healed back so the if you do run heavy to mid hell have alot less health with the same huge hitbox

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52459167]The nerf didn't magically add rng to a game that had none of it, also I don't know why people keep saying they changed its accuracy to 50%, they didn't, but instead of perfect accuracy, it's now similar to the rest of the revolvers, with 50% less bullet spread making it more accurate than other revolvers And about the argument that it makes you miss a shot you perfectly aimed or get a lucky shot etc, would you use your stock revolver at this range? Would you use a pistol at this range? Would you use a shotgun at this range? No? Then why use the ambassador at this range?[/QUOTE] You could before the changes, and now all this does is make doing so unreliable yet still [I]possible[/I], and largely more reliant on luck than skill, which is counterintuitive. It would have been easier just to cap the headshot damage at a certain range, or have it not ignore falloff, another issue.

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;52459220]I think there are bigger problems with gift wrap than that hat being untradable dude.[/QUOTE] hence why i said [I]at least[/I]

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;52459249]its max HP that cant be healed back so the if you do run heavy to mid hell have alot less health with the same huge hitbox[/QUOTE] I'm aware. It's really the only change that could've been made to the weapon that would get it unbanned in 6s. Unless you have a better idea? [editline]11th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=C. Blades;52459251]largely more reliant on luck than skill[/QUOTE] only at massive ranges. like, REALLY long ranges. luck will never come into play at the ranges a Spy SHOULD be using his revolver, and you'll probably still hit most of your long-range shots. Also, how would you be able to tell where the headshot cap is? That's about as easy as being able to tell where a sentry will be able to fire without the big radius bubble as you're putting it down. speaking of bullet spread being "rng", should we give the minigun 0 spread? or the smg? or the pistol?

^^ i think the smg could use it.... but i agree with the point your making

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459276]I'm aware. It's really the only change that could've been made to the weapon that would get it unbanned in 6s. Unless you have a better idea? [editline]11th July 2017[/editline] only at massive ranges. like, REALLY long ranges. luck will never come into play at the ranges a Spy SHOULD be using his revolver, and you'll probably still hit most of your long-range shots. Also, how would you be able to tell where the headshot cap is? That's about as easy as being able to tell where a sentry will be able to fire without the big radius bubble as you're putting it down. speaking of bullet spread being "rng", should we give the minigun 0 spread? or the smg? or the pistol?[/QUOTE] Its worth remembering that weapons are banned in 6s largely because they're deemed to be unfun to the popular metagame. That's why whitelists are format specific. If a weapon was perfectly fine and enjoyable in regular TF2, Highlander, 85% of the game, but caused a problem in 6v6, it would be banned. Does that mean it should then be nerfed for everyone else because tournament leagues in a very small part of the game have banned it, in a format that barely resembles modern TF2? Valve has to shit or get off the pot here, and decide whether or not to make the base game resemble 6s to the point where the competitive metagame that determines global nerfs is reflective of what most of the playerbase is playing (e.g. CSGO) Also, yes, shotguns and pellet spread weapons need their RNG patterns turned into fixed ones.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52459364]Its worth remembering that weapons are banned in 6s largely because they're deemed to be unfun to the popular metagame. That's why whitelists are format specific. [/QUOTE] They've chosen their competitive format as 6v6. So they're balancing toward it. That "very small" part of the game will become much larger soon. And what's balanced for 6s will be perfectly balanced in Casual. "they're deemed to be unfun to the popular metagame." Examples?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52459364]Its worth remembering that weapons are banned in 6s largely because they're deemed to be unfun to the popular metagame. If a weapon was perfectly fine and enjoyable in regular TF2, Highlander, 85% of the game, but caused a problem in 6v6, it would be banned. Does that mean it should then be nerfed for everyone else because tournament leagues in a very small part of the game have banned it, in a format that barely resembles modern TF2? Valve has to shit or get off the pot here, and decide whether or not to make the base game resemble 6s to the point where the competitive metagame that determines global nerfs is reflective of what most of the playerbase is playing (e.g. CSGO)[/QUOTE] i personally think the balance focus on valve's part is fine to only revolve around the game in its vanilla form. there will always be someone else disagreeing with valve's decisions and making their own formats like 6v6, no matter how balanced valve's attempt is. valve may as well just leave those proprietary formats up to their respective creators to balance. valve can very easily make vanilla the de facto tournament mode too. all they need to do is host one. suddenly a standard tournament format exists, and the rest become "those other ones." didn't some people already say focusing too much on comp scene that the changes became pervasive toward casual is why mym was so disliked? it may be wise to not repeat that. i don't know where i am going with this, but i always thought nintendo's way of dealing with smash was good: balance the base game, so that casual is absolutely playable and fun, but let the game settings be versatile enough for the player base to design their own proprietary game mode. you can disable whatever items and what not. really, all they are missing is maybe quality of life changes like a start function instead of a player 3 jigglypuff killing himself. in terms of tf2 that might be something like the ability to start a game with class limits, time limits, weapon bans, map picker, etc while letting parties join. all of these the comp people already do, but an official ui to do it would be nice. mym already set that up too, you can already rudimentary choose which game modes, maps, etc to join.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459405]They've chosen their competitive format as 6v6. So they're balancing toward it. That "very small" part of the game will become much larger soon. And what's balanced in 6s will be perfectly balanced in Casual. "they're deemed to be unfun to the popular metagame." Examples?[/QUOTE] The steak, vaccinator, quick fix, disciplinary action, Sidney sleeper, and jarate are weapons banned by the global 6v6 whitelist that are either allowed in highlander, or seen as fine or even underpowered (like the steak) in regular TF2. Do these weapons need to taste the nerf axe too because of format specific opinion? Checkmate Stalingrad. The game either needs to move towards 6s (preferable) or draw balance from something that resembles what the main game is.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52459426]The steak, vaccinator, quick fix, disciplinary action, rescue ranger, Sidney sleeper, and jarate are weapons banned by the global 6v6 whitelist that are either allowed in highlander, or seen as fine or even underpowered (like the steak) in regular TF2. Do these weapons need to taste the nerf axe too?[/QUOTE] No, they need to be changed in a way that makes them still fun to use while eliminating the reasons they're problematic in 6s. Steak - banned for the same reason GRU was banned in 6s: allows the user to get to mid with no downsides. Quick-fix - banned because of its extremely fast uber building (iirc) Vaccinator - banned because of small playercount causing it to be incredibly difficult to deal with, especially during last pushes (this weapon is unfun to deal with anyway) Rescue Ranger - banned because small playercounts make it difficult to kill a sentry while this weapon is being spammed at it Sydney Sleeper - banned for the same reason Jarate is: it allows a team to decimate the other if the Jarate is applied to enough targets. (with that jarate explosion) Jarate - see above [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809&p=52454030&viewfull=1#post52454030"]And all of these can be changed in a way that still allows them to be fun in Casual.[/URL] Steak? Allow Heavy to do minicrits, even with his minigun, while taking minicrits and also reducing his movement speed (after removing the original movement speed buff). Quick-fix? Reduce uber-gain on full-health players, remove overheal, but increase the healing rate significantly. Vaccinator? Just change some of the values, really (this weapon sucks ass to fight). Rescue Ranger? It's been fixed. Sydney Sleeper? Remove headshot Jarate explosion, instead make headshots give the max Jarate time of 8 seconds. Jarate? Reduce the blast radius so it can only drench a couple of people.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459474]No, they need to be changed in a way that makes them still fun to use while eliminating the reasons they're problematic in 6s. Steak - banned for the same reason GRU was banned in 6s: allows the user to get to mid with no downsides. Quick-fix - banned because of its extremely fast uber building (iirc) Vaccinator - banned because of small playercount causing it to be incredibly difficult to deal with, especially during last pushes (this weapon is unfun to deal with anyway) Rescue Ranger - banned because small playercounts make it difficult to kill a sentry while this weapon is being spammed at it Sydney Sleeper - banned for the same reason Jarate is: it allows a team to decimate the other if the Jarate is applied to enough targets. (with that jarate explosion) Jarate - see above [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809&p=52454030&viewfull=1#post52454030"]And all of these can be changed in a way that still allows them to be fun in Casual.[/URL] Steak? Allow Heavy to do minicrits, even with his minigun, while taking minicrits and also reducing his movement speed (after removing the original movement speed buff). Quick-fix? Reduce uber-gain on full-health players, remove overheal, but increase the healing rate significantly. Vaccinator? Just change some of the values, really (this weapon sucks ass to fight). Rescue Ranger? It's been fixed. Sydney Sleeper? Remove headshot Jarate explosion, instead make headshots give the max Jarate time of 8 seconds. Jarate? Reduce the blast radius so it can only drench a couple of people.[/QUOTE] the rescue ranger isn't banned for this exact reason, but because engie could stand in spawn healing his sentry and if the enemy manages to take it down he can instantly switch class and keep defending the wrangler is banned because it makes the only option to take the sentry down is dedicate most of the uber on the demo to get tons of stickies on it to take it down also sydney sleeper is banned because of the fast charge rate making it much easier to just charge and bodyshot the medic

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52458809]1. The Ambassador change didn't "add RNG" to it. Have you seen [URL="http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL"]these images[/URL]? Even at mid-long range there is no real threat that your first shot will be massively inaccurate. And at short ranges, where the Ambassador is supposed to shine with a person of great skill, there is no difference at all.[/QUOTE] That's...not a very long range. This is 1024 HU in relation to distance on an actual map: [t]http://i.imgur.com/1ZmnSXp.jpg[/t] (credit to Crash for the measurement, I was pretty sure it was only about the length of the bridge and I was right) Even at that range, the spread pattern comes into play. When shooting for people's heads at range, without a scope, the margin for error is extremely thin, especially on a small, fast-moving target like the Scout's head. Most people's crosshairs will be larger than the target they're trying to hit at this range, much less a longer range. Never mind that actual maps have much, much, much longer sightlines than 2Fort's bridge. Never mind that even at the range given, spread begins to come into play and you can only headshot with the Ambassador after the full completion of its cooldown, which is about a second, which as far as I can tell is not going to be changed with this update. Ambassador's perfect accuracy at range previously rewarded one of the hardest raw aim feats in the game- hitting unscoped headshots at range. Was this overpowered or frustrating to play against? Perhaps. But it was also extremely difficult to pull off, and relied entirely on a Spy's mechanical skill. I would rather my shots have damage falloff or just minicrit past an acceptable range if the Ambassador must be nerfed. Adding inaccuracy to it at what's really not a very long range throws away the literal hundreds of hours I put into improving my aim with the weapon. If I miss my shots, it should be my fault, not some bullshit random spread pattern. Competitive players in general don't like randomness to that degree, and I'm one of them. Blackavar, you're the only person I've seen that consistently argues that randomizing the Ambassador is somehow a better solution than falloff or minicrits @ long range. Over on TFTV, and expressed here by me and a few others, the added element of randomness to a previously raw aim weapon both hurts the base identity of the weapon and isn't an ideal solution versus a range limit or falloff. No Competitive player I've ever met likes extra random bullshit in their TF2, which is why configs for comp servers have long disabled random bulletspread on shotguns (instead adopting a fixed pattern), random crits and damage spread. Take it from the shitty Spy main: I run the Ambassador a lot. I know the implications of the proposed changes because I've used the weapon for an extremely long time and I know exactly how it works. I'm fine with a reasonable nerf, but not one that negatively impacts the hard mechanical skill of the weapon and the time that I put into training that.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459578]That's...not a very long range. I would rather my shots have damage falloff or just minicrit past an acceptable range if the Ambassador must be nerfed. Adding inaccuracy to it at what's really not a very long range throws away the literal hundreds of hours I put into improving my aim with the weapon. If I miss my shots, it should be my fault, not some bullshit random spread pattern. Competitive players in general don't like randomness to that degree, and I'm one of them. Blackavar, you're the only person I've seen that consistently argues that randomizing the Ambassador is somehow a better solution than falloff or minicrits @ long range. [/QUOTE] 1. Yes, it's a long range. No class besides Sniper can consistently kill from that range. And a Spy shouldn't be getting good shots from that range either. I don't care how much time you put into learning how to get unscoped headshots. If you're so worried about the time you spent practicing it, go use the Classic. I'm sure they'll buff it this update. 2. "minicrit past an acceptable range" You want that less than you think you do. The minicrit damage for the Ambassador is approximately 46 damage. Remember how Valve spoke about how the Flying Guillotine's long-range minicrit feels random because it's difficult to gauge the range you need to be at to get it? The same thing would apply to the Ambassador, and you'd likely end up more frustrated with the 46 (see: meaningless) damage than if you simply hadn't hit at all. This change makes it still completely possible to get 102 shots from across the map. Just not nearly as consistently as you'd like. It's not "randomness" when the only bit of "random" there is applies to a range the Spy should never be attempting to engage at.

will yall stop arguing, jesus, its not like your going to change each others minds

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459474] Quick-fix - banned because of its extremely fast uber building (iirc) [/QUOTE] The quickfix uber is also able to trade with stock. Hell the quickfix's base heal rate can trade with stock uber.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459609]1. Yes, it's a long range. No class besides Sniper can consistently kill from that range. And a Spy shouldn't be getting good shots from that range either.[/QUOTE] The length of 2Fort's bridge is not a long range. Scouts and Engineers with pistols (as well as Snipers with SMGs) can kill people at that range. Heavy can mow them down. Damage falloff on the Rocket Launcher isn't going to take a tremendous dive, and Demo's weapons won't suffer falloff at that range at all. Hell, Engineer's sentries can kill at that range! I've been 'that guy' on 2Fort with Minis before! [quote]2. "minicrit past an acceptable range" You want that less than you think you do. The minicrit damage for the Ambassador is approximately 46 damage. Remember how Valve spoke about how the Flying Guillotine's long-range minicrit feels random because it's difficult to gauge the range you need to be at to get it? The same thing would apply to the Ambassador, and you'd likely end up more frustrated with the 46 (see: meaningless) damage than if you simply hadn't hit at all.[/quote] 46 isn't meaningless damage. It's more than a Revolver bodyshot at long range would do and is about in line with the damage of a close-range bodyshot from stock/Amby, which isn't too bad on its own. Even if the headshot doesn't do as much damage as I want it to, it's still a headshot. It still connects, it still gives me a signifier that I hit that shot, that I was good enough to land it. It's positive feedback for my skill development as a player, and that is a key point that I want to keep in the Ambassador. Missing shots that I should've hit is not fucking conducive for that. [quote][B]This change makes it still completely possible to get 102 shots from across the map. Just not nearly as consistently as you'd like.[/B] It's not "randomness" when the only bit of "random" there is applies to a range the Spy should never be attempting to engage at.[/quote] That's fuckin bullshit, dude. 2Fort is one of the smallest maps in the game, and the bridge is the length at which the spread starts really coming into effect. I can only fire a bullet capable of headshotting from the Ambassador once a second, and those are overwhelmingly likely to me outside of the center of my crosshair at that range. [t]http://i.imgur.com/LNVtfbF.jpg[/t] Look at this shit. THAT'S 2FORT BRIDGE RANGE, AND THE SPREAD PATTERN IS SEVERAL TIMES LARGER THAN HIS CROSSHAIR. Nah man, that's totally accurate. That's totally good enough to hit small, fast-moving heads at range. There are much longer sightlines in this game. Have you played Harvest? Double Cross? Product/Viaduct? Literally any Payload or 5CP map? I'm going to start missing shots at a fucking pitiful range versus most maps in the game and you're trying to tell me that this change isn't bullshit? That it's still "completely possible" to hit people from across the map when I can't even do that on fucking [I]2Fort: Clusterfuck Central[/I]?

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459578]Was this overpowered or frustrating to play against? Perhaps. But it was also extremely difficult to pull off, and relied entirely on a Spy's mechanical skill.[/QUOTE] And besides competitive balance, FUN is the most important part of a game. If an item makes people get angry at you, it might deserve a change. An item that allows Spy to get significant damage at long range with 0 downsides isn't fun. You could keep your perfect accuracy if the Ambassador had something like a passive 100% added cloak and uncloak fade time, so when you inevitably run away cloaking I can catch you, or a passive -25 health, or anything that would make them easier to kill for such an annoyingly free bonus.