Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

Ring the bell, pray for tomorrow folks

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459693]And besides competitive balance, FUN is the most important part of a game. If an item makes people get angry at you, it might deserve a change. An item that allows Spy to get significant damage at long range with 0 downsides isn't fun. [/quote] besides the loss in DPS and firing speed? also, fun for the Spy matters too. the Sandman nerf doesn't allow infinite range stuns anymore, but people who have put time and practice into learning its trajectory and the such aren't getting dicked over because the base identity of the weapon and how it can be used is still intact.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459701]besides the loss in DPS and firing speed? [/QUOTE] Yes, I'm sure you hold down m1 when you use the stock revolver, instead of carefully making sure your shots connect with the opponent, and I'm sure you're inches from the opponent's face when you're using the revolver. [QUOTE=Contra132;52459701]also, fun for the Spy matters too. the Sandman nerf doesn't allow infinite range stuns anymore, but people who have put time and practice into learning its trajectory and the such aren't getting dicked over because the base identity of the weapon and how it can be used is still intact.[/QUOTE] Hah. I've met many people who are unironically bothered that they can't insta-win with the Sandman anymore, the most nerf-deserving item in the entire game. Fun for the enemy is far more important than fun for the person using the item.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459710][B]Yes, I'm sure you hold down m1 when you use the stock revolver[/B], instead of carefully making sure your shots connect with the opponent, and I'm sure you're inches from the opponent's face when you're using the revolver.[/quote] Yeah, I actually hold down M1 with the stock revolver and keep it center-of-mass. It works and my shots hit because I can aim. Bad argument, play Spy more. [quote]Hah. I've met many people who are unironically bothered that they can't insta-win with the Sandman anymore, the most nerf-deserving item in the entire game. Fun for the enemy is far more important than fun for the person using the item.[/QUOTE] I don't care about the Sandman nerf, to be fair, but it's still the same weapon. It can be used pretty much the same as it was before, but it's just slightly less effective than it used to be. The proposed changes to the Ambassador ensure that most of your shots are going to miss at and past 1024 HUs- which, again, is [I]not[/I] a long range, look at literally any Payload, 5CP or KOTH map and tell me otherwise- which not only significantly impacts the effectiveness of the weapon, but also impacts how the weapon is used and the time spent learning it. Getting hit for 102 across Hightower? Yeah that probably sucks. Effectively losing hundreds of hours of aim training because of an idiotic change to the core identity and functionality of the weapon sucks [I]way[/I] more than that.

i love the dumbs back and forth between contra and blackavar here

honestly I'm just tired of arguing about Spy with people who clearly don't understand how Spy works beyond getting angry about him in pubs. it's become exceedingly clear to me that it doesn't matter how much evidence I present or how much experience and skill backs my assertations, so I don't care anymore. I'm done arguing. on-topic, this year's summer update will now be later than any summer update to have preceded it. august is looking more and more likely by the day.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459776]honestly I'm just tired of arguing about Spy with people who clearly don't understand how Spy works beyond getting angry about him in pubs. it's become exceedingly clear to me that it doesn't matter how much evidence I present or how much experience and skill backs my assertations, so I don't care anymore. I'm done arguing. on-topic, this year's summer update will now be later than any summer update to have preceded it. august is looking more and more likely by the day.[/QUOTE] I want Spy to be strong in competitive. You've seen my item suggestions and commended them. I just don't like the Ambassador for all the reasons I've stated above.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459776]honestly I'm just tired of arguing about Spy with people who clearly don't understand how Spy works[/QUOTE] imagine being so elitist that you believe that the only reason people disagree with you is because they're stupid and not as smart as you.

you're testing with stock, the would-be ambassador will be 50% more accurate than stock, you can't get accurate tests until it's implemented I think it should be accurate within around 1200 HU, mini crits on long range shots feels kinda dumb tbh, your reasoning is that atleast you'll feel good that you hit the shot, which accomplished nothing in the actual game, like hitting a direct rocket acrossthe map that does like 40 damage, yay? damage falloff would probably be the best approach like others suggested, but I'm not sure if it's possible to od, make it do 300% more damage on headshots with falloff

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459786]I want Spy to be strong in competitive. You've seen my item suggestions and commended them. I just don't like the Ambassador for all the reasons I've stated above.[/QUOTE] I'm not trying to make you like the Ambassador. You're entitled to your opinion of it. But insisting that its proposed changes would keep its ranged effectiveness- even when the length's of 2Fort's bridge is already more than enough to start missing shots entirely- is demonstratably wrong. I posted both a hard hammer units measurement [I]and[/I] used your favorite evidence album to prove this point, and you're either outright ignoring it or willfully denying it because it doesn't match your argument that the Ambassador isn't greatly effected by this change (and it is). [QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52459796]imagine being so elitist that you believe that the only reason people disagree with you is because they're stupid and not as smart as you.[/QUOTE] I know Spy, and I'm pretty sure I've played it more than any of you and at a higher level of play. It's not elitist to believe that my experience lends at least some weight to the points I'm making. [editline]11th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Nebrassy;52459802]you're testing with stock, the would-be ambassador will be 50% more accurate than stock, you can't get accurate tests until it's implemented[/QUOTE] [url]http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL[/url] blackavar presented that. the testing methodology is used to imitate the proposed stat changes to the ambassador. ambassador and revolver have the same accuracy when held down and fired. the ambassador just regains its first-shot perfect accuracy through a ramp-up, opposed to a revolver's on/off state. the testing methodology is solid.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459804] [url]http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL[/url] blackavar presented that. the testing methodology is used to imitate the proposed stat changes to the ambassador. ambassador and revolver have the same accuracy when held down and fired. the ambassador just regains its first-shot perfect accuracy through a ramp-up, opposed to a revolver's on/off state. the testing methodology is solid.[/QUOTE] Ambassador's current first shot is perfectly accurate, revolver's first shot is entitled to bullet spread, the proposed ambassador's first shot will have 50% less bullet spread to it compared to stock, and we don't know exactly how it will be implemented, no current tests are accurate

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459804]I'm not trying to make you like the Ambassador. You're entitled to your opinion of it. But insisting that its proposed changes would keep its ranged effectiveness- even when the length's of 2Fort's bridge is already more than enough to start missing shots entirely- is demonstratably wrong. I posted both a hard hammer units measurement [I]and[/I] used your favorite evidence album to prove this point, and you're either outright ignoring it or willfully denying it because it doesn't match your argument that the Ambassador isn't greatly effected by this change (and it is). I know Spy, and I'm pretty sure I've played it more than any of you and at a higher level of play. It's not elitist to believe that my experience lends at least some weight to the points I'm making. [editline]11th July 2017[/editline] [url]http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL[/url] blackavar presented that. the testing methodology is used to imitate the proposed stat changes to the ambassador. ambassador and revolver have the same accuracy when held down and fired. the ambassador just regains its first-shot perfect accuracy through a ramp-up, opposed to a revolver's on/off state. the testing methodology is solid.[/QUOTE] I think the big issue people have with the ambassador, is that they expect TF2 to be as much as a class based shooter as it can be. Spy's role is not long range. It's annoying when people expect a class to be close range danger, and can turn around and play both roles because of aimbot/high skill; just like it is very annoying when a Sniper gets a headshot off of you in melee range. Skill is a huge part of this game yes, but the main focus of Tf2 is Team Cooperation, utilizing different classes to accomplish specific tasks. At least, that's what majority of players would probably feel. even if maybe thats pub players or comp players.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52459833]Ambassador's current first shot is perfectly accurate, revolver's first shot is entitled to bullet spread, the proposed ambassador's first shot will have 50% less bullet spread to it compared to stock, and we don't know exactly how it will be implemented, no current tests are accurate[/QUOTE] Revolver's first shot is perfectly accurate too. All Revolver shots are. Additionally, the spread patterns of Stock and the Ambassador are identical when fired continuously. A Revolver with 50% more accuracy would accurately reflect the Ambassador's proposed change, sans firing speed and the Amby cooldown between headshots.

Minicrits on long range headshot seems like the best approach to the amby. It allows skill based play on the spy's part without sacrificing flow of the game. The problem is taking 102's from across the map from a close range class like the spy. The new amby change does not solve this problem; all it does is make the problem happen through a RNG. People will still take 102s from across the map, except now both the victim and the spy at the mercy of a dice roll, which I think is dumb.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459841]Additionally, the spread patterns of Stock and the Ambassador are identical when fired continuously.[/QUOTE] evidence plz

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459684]That's totally good enough to hit small, fast-moving heads at range. [/QUOTE] why in the fucking world does a spy need or deserve to get headshots past this range? stop being such an entitled baby please, for the sake of the thread. please ask yourself this question before you give me a fucking migraine [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Was warned - Rude / Flaming again" - Kiwi))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459841]Revolver's first shot is perfectly accurate too. All Revolver shots are. Additionally, the spread patterns of Stock and the Ambassador are identical when fired continuously. A Revolver with 50% more accuracy would accurately reflect the Ambassador's proposed change, sans firing speed and the Amby cooldown between headshots.[/QUOTE] yup I got that one wrong, I still don't like the idea of mini crits on longer range, I'd still prefer removing crits entirely changing it to extra damage to headshots ,letting falloff handle the rest, a hard range limit that halves your damage isn't a really great idea

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52459868]evidence plz[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;c9PWNPOARfY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9PWNPOARfY[/video] here you go. aside from a ramp-up (which doesn't effect continuous firing, as the ramp-up never starts), the Ambassador has no difference in accuracy versus other Revolvers in the game as it is now. don't know why you thought otherwise. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [QUOTE=ikes;52459879]why in the fucking world does a spy need or deserve to get headshots past this range? stop being such an entitled baby please, for the sake of the thread. please ask yourself this question before you give me a fucking migraine[/QUOTE] Considering that many other weapons are also effective at that range, I don't believe that 1024 HU is nearly enough for a weapon based on high accuracy and hitting headshots. Hell you're still going to miss at that range with the proposed change as it is now. Also, I'd say if you have the aim and the ability, you generally deserve to hit your shots. And not, you know, have RNG bullshit screw you over.

If nothing happens this week then I am settling my hopes on August.

-snip-

[QUOTE=Contra132;52459910][video=youtube;c9PWNPOARfY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9PWNPOARfY[/video] here you go. aside from a ramp-up (which doesn't effect continuous firing, as the ramp-up never starts), the Ambassador has no difference in accuracy versus other Revolvers in the game as it is now. don't know why you thought otherwise. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯[/QUOTE] because 1. although my memory can be failing, the unlisted tighter spread has always been a keypoint of the ambassador and this used to be somewhat common knowledge. I was there live when it used to shoot giant projectile cubes of death that penetrated setup gates. 2. I literally just tried it in walkway this very minute and it still looks like amby is tighter. I don't know what the hell is wrong with the video you posted but it's flawed [thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/spread.jpg[/thumb] 3. I'm not taking any sides in this thread and my post was an humble request to keep my knowledge up to date so keep the passive agressiveness to a minimum thank you

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52460012]because 1. although my memory can be failing, the unlisted tighter spread has always been a keypoint of the ambassador and this used to be somewhat common knowledge. I was there live when it used to shoot giant projectile cubes of death that penetrated setup gates. 2. I literally just tried it in walkway this very minute and it still looks like amby is tighter. I don't know what the hell is wrong with the video you posted but it's flawed [thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/spread.jpg[/thumb][/quote] That is weird. To verify, you held down M1 the entire time on both, firing as fast as possible? That's what I mean by "continuous firing". [quote]3. I'm not taking any sides in this thread and my post was an humble request to keep my knowledge up to date so keep the passive agressiveness to a minimum thank you[/QUOTE] Apologies, I misinterpreted your initial post. That was definitely my bad.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52460044]That is weird. To verify, you held down M1 the entire time on both, firing as fast as possible? That's what I mean by "continuous firing".[/QUOTE] aye. I even sped up timescale by x10. I had my back to the wood billboard perfectly for both.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52460051]aye. I even sped up timescale by x10. I had my back to the wood billboard perfectly for both.[/QUOTE] Well, looks like I'm wrong about that continuous fire spread. Dunno what was going on in Woolen's video, then- that was a video made as an educational piece for other Spies, so I don't think it was an intentional lie. Maybe something has changed since then? Timescale could've also thrown things off (like Amby's accuracy cooldown mechanic), but I've never heard of timescale effecting things like that. That being the case, I guess the question is whether the Ambassador's proposed 50 percent reduction is on top of what it seems to already have, if it applies to all shots instead of just the first one, etc...I'm still generally against inaccuracy as a solution to the problem for aforementioned reasons (RNG, skill development, player feedback), but we may not have a 100 percent accurate testing methodology right now.

as I said, we have no idea how this will change the weapon, but trust me it won't turn into the Juan Deag, see: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2kl1pTbDwQ[/url]

And I thought my 6s-ization crusade was intense >.> Anyway, the good news is y'all managed to take up a night's worth of posts with it, moving us that much closer to "eventually" for the pyro update.

I love the change in title.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52459609] 2. "minicrit past an acceptable range" You want that less than you think you do. The minicrit damage for the Ambassador is approximately 46 damage. Remember how Valve spoke about how the Flying Guillotine's long-range minicrit feels random because it's difficult to gauge the range you need to be at to get it? The same thing would apply to the Ambassador, and you'd likely end up more frustrated with the 46 (see: meaningless) damage than if you simply hadn't hit at all. [/QUOTE] If Valve were to go with a mini crit drop off after a certain range they could pretty easily let people know by doing something like putting one symbol for crits and another symbol for minicrits in the enemy name/health info that comes up when you have your crosshair over an enemy when you're playing as spy.

The biggest thing that always fucks me up with the amby is that I can't tell what the actual firing speed is to get headshots. The crosshair shows you, but if you want to fire at Max speed you need to time it perfectly, before you have time to actually react to seeing the crosshair come to a stop. Bottom line is that it's hard for me to tell if I'm shooting too fast, or if I'm not accurate enough. If they lowered the firing speed to be the same as the headshot firing speed I'd probably do better with the damn thing, even though that's technically a substantial Nerf.

looks like the botted votes on Banana Bay were removed [url]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=951657912[/url]