Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=-Banshee-;52318731]Certain melee weapons not being viable compared to their alternatives isn't an excuse to give them the capability to randomly one hit kill most of the game's classes. Valve is perfectly capable of making any balance changes they see fit should they decide to remove random crits.[/QUOTE] How many times do I have to point this out to you? It is NOT random one hit kill. It is a mattor of factors which you can ALL predict / account for. Such as: [I]Point-blank range Draw animation, OR being aware that someone is holding a melee Not being aware that you can be punished if you overextended into somebody's face Stupidity of the person who just got hit by a melee weapon.[/I] IMO you should stop posting about melee crits until you consider these factors and your ability to anticipate this. And yes, crits aren't that common, it's not like every time you end up being in a very close proximity to a sniper he "instantly 195s you without any reaction time given to you".

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318824]How many times do I have to point this out to you? It is NOT random one hit kill. It is a mattor of factors which you can ALL predict / account for. Such as: [I]Point-blank range Draw animation, OR being aware that someone is holding a melee Not being aware that you can be punished if you overextended into somebody's face Stupidity of the person who just got hit by a melee weapon.[/I] IMO you should stop posting about melee crits until you consider these factors and your ability to anticipate this. And yes, crits aren't that common, it's not like every time you end up being in a very close proximity to a sniper he "instantly 195s you without any reaction time given to you".[/QUOTE] You forgot the increased crit chance from dealing damage previously.

[QUOTE=LittleBabyman;52318834]You forgot the increased crit chance from dealing damage previously.[/QUOTE] That thing makes no sense and should be removed even if crits stay unchanged

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318824]How many times do I have to point this out to you? It is NOT random one hit kill. It is a mattor of factors which you can ALL predict / account for. Such as: [I]Point-blank range Draw animation, OR being aware that someone is holding a melee Not being aware that you can be punished if you overextended into somebody's face Stupidity of the person who just got hit by a melee weapon.[/I] IMO you should stop posting about melee crits until you consider these factors and your ability to anticipate this. And yes, crits aren't that common, it's not like every time you end up being in a very close proximity to a sniper he "instantly 195s you without any reaction time given to you".[/QUOTE] There should be 0 reason that anyone should be able to do 3 times normal damage just because they were doing a ton of damage (or healing) earlier. Play tr_walkway, do a ton of damage as any class, and count how many melee crits you do in a row. I think my current record is 11.

Why is crit chance relevant in this discussion? It was never brought up. I am against crit chance boosting from damage / healing and I think it should be removed. How did you manage to get crit chance pulled into this? It's a chance, and you also take a chance yourself when you get into the melee range etc. FYI, Damage on tr_walkway is unrealistic if compared to normal play. Still, this is irrelevant as all hell.

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318862]How did you manage to get crit chance pulled into this? It's a chance, and you also take a chance yourself when you get into the melee range etc.[/QUOTE] RNG has no place in a competitive game. edit: why are so many people suddenly supporting melee crits

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52318866]RNG has no place in a competitive game.[/QUOTE] [I]*cough* Dota *cough* [/I][QUOTE=Blackavar;52318866] edit: why are so many people suddenly supporting melee crits[/QUOTE] Because while in current state crits are horrible, with some work and balancing they could be a legit gameplay mechanic

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52318866]RNG has no place in a competitive game. edit: why are so many people suddenly supporting melee crits[/QUOTE] It's not a competitive game. We are talking about casual melee crits. Hello? IMO I'd like crits in comp to spice things up, but that's just me, okay? Other people seem to be liking the idea of melee crits in casual, and it's perfectly reasonable. Read Shirt.'s post, and all of my posts etc to see the reasons as to why.

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318824]How many times do I have to point this out to you? It is NOT random one hit kill. It is a mattor of factors which you can ALL predict / account for. Such as: [I]Point-blank range Draw animation, OR being aware that someone is holding a melee Not being aware that you can be punished if you overextended into somebody's face Stupidity of the person who just got hit by a melee weapon.[/I] IMO you should stop posting about melee crits until you consider these factors and your ability to anticipate this. And yes, crits aren't that common, it's not like every time you end up being in a very close proximity to a sniper he "instantly 195s you without any reaction time given to you".[/QUOTE] I've spent more than enough time playing this game with and without random crits. I've already taken everything you're talking about into account, I don't need you to "educate" me on this matter, nor do I care if you think I should stop posting simply because I disagree with you. Still random one hit kills, by the way. You did nothing except exaggerate how unlikely it is to be hit by a melee weapon, especially in higher player count environments. Melee crits are also a lot more common than you're saying. Their crit rate can get up to 60%, after all.

Casual shouldnt have crits either. If you unironically think crits in comp "spice things up" you have the wrong idea what comp is. If I get a kill with a random crit I feel bad because I didn't deserve the kill and the other twink I killed must feel awful. If I get killed, I feel awful. No "haha how wacky" emotions. It's just another burden that makes it harder to combine casual and comp tf2 and is not fun at all.

[QUOTE=-Banshee-;52318888]Their crit rate can get up to 60%, after all[/QUOTE] We are talking about mechanic itself, not the rate, not how it works right now, but how it theoretically could work, nobody said "let's slap current crit system on melee and call it a day"

Crits are annoying to deal with wherever they are. It would be nice to be able to think "oh, this idiot's in my face trying to melee me, i can just keep shooting him with my shotgun because he can only deal 65 damage", but no, he could suddenly deal 195 damage (with a high chance if he'd done a lot of damage beforehand) so what I should really be doing is RUNNING AWAY instead of using my weapon that most of the time is objectively better than it. I think that's [I]stupid[/I]. [editline]6th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Fluury;52318899]Casual shouldnt have crits either. If you unironically think crits in comp "spice things up" you have the wrong idea what comp is. If I get a kill with a random crit I feel bad because I didn't deserve the kill and the other twink I killed must feel awful. If I get killed, I feel awful. No "haha how wacky" emotions. It's just another burden that makes it harder to combine casual and comp tf2 and is not fun at all.[/QUOTE] Yes, I think it's important to make Casual as close to Competitive as possible, mechanic-wise. The only difference between Casual and Comp should be the amount of people playing, and the gamemodes, both of which sort of imply a rather... looser attitude to winning the game, which is fine. But otherwise it shouldn't be any more random than competitive. The increased amount of people certainly increases the chance that the corner you walk by has an enemy waiting for you, and that's the only bit of random I want in my game of TF2.

What could be done is to make the melees that currently can random crit have Gunslinger-esque consecutive crits, and also increase the base damage Mannpower-esque. Heavy's melee weapons should have the damage increased even more.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52318899]Casual shouldnt have crits either. If you unironically think crits in comp "spice things up" you have the wrong idea what comp is. If I get a kill with a random crit I feel bad because I didn't deserve the kill and the other twink I killed must feel awful. If I get killed, I feel awful. No "haha how wacky" emotions. It's just another burden that makes it harder to combine casual and comp tf2 and is not fun at all.[/QUOTE] I've played more than 5 seasons of competitive TF2, and meleeing rarely ever happens, and when it does (score a kill), the entire comms just blow up; it's a miracle. I think we just have different mentalities. From my view, I never get hit by melee crits because I'm smart enough to avoid them (100% of the competitive playerbase), and I expect other people to be so as well. From your view (as I see it), you probably think that it's just unfair and the 0.001% (pulled out of my ass %) chance of ACTUALLY getting a hit without actively trying and ACTUALLY getting a crit is imbalanced and not competitive. Same applies to pubs. If you killed someone with a melee crit, the [B]enemy[/B] should feel bad because they allowed you to get this close. All of this argument comes down to the fact that you people seem to care about the poor guys that don't know how to counter a melee, or you think that a laughably low % chance that a smart player would get caught by a random melee crit is not worth the hype and the adrenaline and possible suspense the crit will cause. (Crit pans.) I do hope you realize we're talking about melee crits, read the entire thing if you don't.

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;52318956]What could be done is to make the melees that currently can random crit have Gunslinger-esque consecutive crits[/QUOTE] Haven't we in the past talked about how complicating the game like this won't make it any better? Besides, this only hurts the classes that can't move as fast.

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;52318956]What could be done is to make the melees that currently can random crit have Gunslinger-esque consecutive crits, and also increase the base damage Mannpower-esque. Heavy's melee weapons should have the damage increased even more.[/QUOTE] It's important to keep Heavy's damage below 150, so he cannot one shot a medic. Don't forget a Heavy has access to both the Buffalo Steak and the Warrior's Spirit.

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318969]I've played more than 5 seasons of competitive TF2, and meleeing rarely ever happens, and when it does, the entire comms just blow up; it's a miracle.[/QUOTE] "I pressed 3 and hit someone, what a miracle"

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52318990]"I pressed 3 and hit someone, what a miracle"[/QUOTE] Exaggeration sure moves the discussion in the right way

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52318990]"I pressed 3 and hit someone, what a miracle"[/QUOTE] Sorry, I forgot to add the actual "melee killing" part here, but yeah, meleeing never happens so even a single hit can be celebrated. Search up any logs on logs.tf (a competitive match scoreboard website), and it will show that most players don't have a single digit of damage on their melees stat. If you don't believe me, try it yourself.

[QUOTE=Rhike;52319003]Sorry, I forgot to add the actual "melee killing" part here, but yeah, meleeing never happens so even a single hit can be celebrated. Search up any logs on logs.tf (a competitive match scoreboard website), and it will show that most players don't have a single digit of damage on their melees stat. If you don't believe me, try it yourself.[/QUOTE] I'm not questioning the difficulty of meleeing someone who's likely using an objectively better weapon. I'm saying it's dumb to celebrate the idiocy of someone getting hit by it. If I'd been hit by it and people talked about how trash I was for it (not that I disagree that I'm trash), I'd probably just leave the match in anger, as I'm incredibly prone to it while playing TF2. (it's why I'm a medic main, as I can blame my team for not killing the guy that got close to me)

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318979]It's important to keep Heavy's damage below 150, so he cannot one shot a medic. Don't forget a Heavy has access to both the Buffalo Steak and the Warrior's Spirit.[/QUOTE] Heavy is the slowest class in the game. If you get to the melee range of the Heavy, it's your fault. Not to mention Buffalo Steak and the Warrior's Spirit would need some buffs. [editline]6th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Blackavar;52318972]Haven't we in the past talked about how complicating the game like this won't make it any better? Besides, this only hurts the classes that can't move as fast.[/QUOTE] How is this complicated? All you will need to do is to keep hitting without missing. There wouldn't be any unstockfulness, or charge bullshit, or hidden resistances.

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;52319031]How is this complicated? All you will need to do is to keep hitting without missing. There wouldn't be any unstockfulness, or charge bullshit, or hidden resistances.[/QUOTE] It changes the game in that people try to use it. I can only imagine the amount of people playing Scout (pretty much the only class that could use this effectively), calling themselves "melee main" people should never be encouraged to melee the enemy. it's a last resort 65 burst damage at close range. that's still useful if both of you are out of ammo and are at close range. there should be no random 195 damage, based on how much damage you did before or not.

I am honestly baffled how the discussion is still going on... Random crits have [B]NO[/B] place in TF2, for the very reason it has in it's name: Random. The game becomes inconsistent and unreliable when random crits are in place and that's why they're disabled in all competitive formats. Random crits make it impossible to reliably plan out duels you plan to take with other players because there's always a possibility you'll be unfairly punished by the "Half-Life 2 Random Stream", and get instakilled because someone else got lucky. It's objectively unfair, and it should be removed. Consider this scenario: You are a soldier, you hit a sniper for a total of 120 damage, you know they weren't buffed, you aren't at full health, you're out of ammo, you pull out your melee. You [B]deserve[/B] the kill, and under all normal circumstances you'll get it, unless they manage to quickscope you. But no, the sniper lands on your head and gets a juicy -195 on you. Is that fair? No. Did he deserve a "get out of jail free" card against you? No. Did you deserve the kill? Yes, because in any normal scenario the melee would hit you for -65, not -195. Did you get the kill? No, because random crits. Not only that, random crits allow you to snowball enemies really hard if you do well (more dmg dealt = more crit chance) - so assume a good player screwed up in a duel against you and you're about to finish them off. Oh no, they dealt 1200 damage in the last 12 seconds and they got a crit on you. Again, "get out of jail free" card, undeserved kill for the player that should be punished for the mistakes they made, and you're punished for.... what exactly? For the other player doing good and getting an additional, random and most importantly [B]unfair and inconsistent[/B] bonus? A bonus you cannot reliably foresee them getting to prepare for it, or prevent it from killing you? Really? People who like random crits are [B]usually[/B] bad at the game and need them to get kills, once they improve and sit on the other side of the encounter they'll realise they're unfair and most likely begin to dislike them just as much as I and other competitive players do. TL;DR - Random crits are bs, the game cannot promote competitive behavior and have decent standard on pubs as long as they're there, it's contradictory. This is technically discussion about the future of TF2 so it falls under speculation... maybe.... please?

The points on either side are completely fair and supported. I have never seen an argument that is this two-sided. It's up to Valve at this point.

[QUOTE=Rhike;52319075]The points on either side are completely fair and supported. I have never seen an argument that is this two-sided. It's up to Valve at this point.[/QUOTE] I've never seen a person actually support random crits in any fashion in my entire 5 years of playing this game

[QUOTE=Rhike;52319075]The points on either side are completely fair and supported. I have never seen an argument that is this two-sided. It's up to Valve at this point.[/QUOTE] It's always up to Valve lol It's not like if somebody agrees and accepts other point of view Jill will rush to push out an update with those changes [QUOTE=Blackavar;52319088]I've never seen a person actually support random crits in any fashion in my entire 5 years of playing this game[/QUOTE] That's a shame that people focus on random crits, i think making stock melee viable is what is important in this discussion, not random crits themselves If not by crits - we should come up with better ways to make stock melee viable It's not in TF2's spirit to have weapons that are straight upgrade

Anyone who thinks random crits should be standard in the game in any capacity should go back to Reddit or SCUD. The debate was settled years ago.

[QUOTE=kos8bit;52319092] If not by crits - we should come up with better ways to make stock melee viable It's not in TF2's spirit to have weapons that are straight upgrade[/QUOTE] increase base damage to 85. there, done. weapons labelled "no random crits" can have that reduced back down to 65.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319132]increase base damage to 85. there, done. weapons labelled "no random crits" can have that reduced back down to 65.[/QUOTE] That's a very cheap and boring way to do that though. And for example, i don't think higher base damage of axe will ever outweigh the benefits of the powerjack They need different mechanics, not slightly prettier numbers

[QUOTE=kos8bit;52319140]That's a very cheap and boring way to do that though. And for example, i don't think higher base damage of axe will ever outweigh the benefits of the powerjack They need different mechanics, not slightly prettier numbers[/QUOTE] I've heard someone (edit: fluury) say that all melee weapons should have a slight speed boost when out, unless labelled otherwise. Not too complicated, and gives melee a use for all classes. Though it might make scout kinda stupid