Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52466003]5. lessen combo emphasis (this is the main reason pyro has the lowest skill ceiling: his greatest damage output comes from a stunlock)[/QUOTE] Good thing you don't need to airblast to use the 2 secondaries serious pyros actually use. I don't see how a single scarcely used crutch weapon is proof of a class having a low skill ceiling.

[QUOTE=VX-79;52466027]Good thing you don't need to airblast to use the 2 secondaries serious pyros actually use.[/QUOTE] The point is that requiring crit gimmicks do well as a class is pretty dumb, even if you don't use airblast. Pyro really shouldn't have long range weapons, and getting flare-spammed at is annoying

The End of the Line update is when I learned to stop hyping over TF2 updates. Anything can and will go wrong.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52466033]The point is that requiring crit gimmicks do well as a class is pretty dumb, even if you don't use airblast. Pyro really shouldn't have long range weapons, and getting flare-spammed at is annoying[/QUOTE] If a pyro hits you twice with a flare gun from long range, they either have great aim or you were standing still way too much. A projectile with a slightly arched trajectory and a 2 second fire delay isn't the easiest thing to aim. The only flare spamming that I can see being annoying is the scorch shot seeing as it doesn't require any careful aiming.

[QUOTE=VX-79;52466054]If a pyro hits you twice with a flare gun from long range, they either have great aim or you were standing still way too much. A projectile with a slightly arched trajectory and a 2 second fire delay isn't the easiest thing to aim. The only flare spamming that I can see being annoying is the scorch shot seeing as it doesn't require any careful aiming.[/QUOTE] And the scorch shot does peanuts in the way of damage.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52466033]The point is that requiring crit gimmicks do well as a class is pretty dumb, even if you don't use airblast. Pyro really shouldn't have long range weapons, and getting flare-spammed at is annoying[/QUOTE] I think you could argue that pyro not having any long range capabilities is what eventually lead to all the dumb crit combos and weird gimmicks he has. Most other classes with short range weapons/playstyles have a way to deal with the lack of range, vanilla wise that is. Scout has his pistol and overall speed, Heavy has his high HP and strong damage, Spy has his revolver, disguises, and invisibility. All pyro really has to help by default is an airblast (which is only useful against two other classes in terms of closing distance) and a shotgun (another short ranged weapon).

[QUOTE=Man in the Moon;52466061]And the scorch shot does peanuts in the way of damage.[/QUOTE] Doesn't keep it from being annoying. Fire is like a bad itch at the moment. I wish the flare guns barely had any afterburn time, but the flamethrower itself, if you were hit with enough direct fire damage, was powerful enough that you'd be running to your medic for salvation

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52466078]Doesn't keep it from being annoying. Fire is like a bad itch at the moment. I wish the flare guns barely had any afterburn time, but the flamethrower itself, if you were hit with enough direct fire damage, was powerful enough that you'd be running to your medic for salvation[/QUOTE] Being annoying is kind of subjective though is it not? I don't care for scorch shot spam either, but I bare with it. Some people hate how effective clogging choke points with rocket/explosive spam is as well technically or being head shotted the instant you enter the sniper's head lines for instance. The only time I really find flares unbearable though is if there were long narrow hallways where avoiding them were nearly impossible. But that's not as much of a fault of the weapon as it is the fault of poor level design.

Winglet really delivered with the short, excellent job. Now, I saw that in the eviction notice the guys from blu recived it said that they should leave the property , being the last day to leave the 16th of july, I know is sunday but is that releated to the actual release of the update?. Sorry if im sounding dumb, but im been waiting for the update a really long time (like all of you I guess) I thought the update was going to go live today and didnt have any plans if it didnt so..... should I cancel all my plans for the next week or?

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52466091]Being annoying is kind of subjective though is it not? I don't care for scorch shot spam either, but I bare with it. Some people hate how effective clogging choke points with rocket/explosive spam is as well technically or being head shotted the instant you enter the sniper's head lines for instance.[/QUOTE] I don't feel the need to run to a healthpack every time I'm hit with long-range rocket splash, unlike the way I do when I'm hit by a Scorch Shot flare (honestly this is the most annoying. just make it not do afterburn or something). I do agree that Sniper is really fucking annoying (only long-range class in a game full of short-mid range classes).

[QUOTE=Man in the Moon;52466061]And the scorch shot does peanuts in the way of damage.[/QUOTE] "Piss damage" is Pyro's specialty. Do we just forget to take into account the near guaranteed full afterburn damage the target receives? Not every team has a medic. Not every map has water or nicely placed health packs... Oh and by the time the target starts to run (predictably to a healthpack) you've just shot another 2 or so flares at him dealing some lovely added bonus damage. Why does Pyro need better range counter capabilities than a scout, engineer... Heavy even? [QUOTE=jackteam54;52466067] Most other classes with short range weapons/playstyles have a way to deal with the lack of range, vanilla wise that is. Scout has his pistol and overall speed, Heavy has his high HP and strong damage, Spy has his revolver, disguises, and invisibility.[/QUOTE] Heavy is a sitting duck, regardless of his HP, it can be easily dwindled at range by projectile spam or a well placed headshot from a sniper rifle. Ever watch heavies in HL? They're like a punching bag. [Quote] All pyro really has to help by default is an airblast (which is only useful against two other classes in terms of closing distance) and a shotgun (another short ranged weapon).[/Quote] Pyro has a combination of decent movement speed and the health of a demoman. Pyro is quite meaty and very capable, especially when not in the open. Are people playing on Harvest and demanding changes specifically because of how open this one particular map is? Even then, there are ways to get from one side of Harvest to the other without being seen. If Pyro (instead of maps like harvest) is adjusted to make him more capable in open areas, while keeping his undaunted 1v1 close range capabilities, he would become more of a tank than he already is.

[QUOTE=turshitposter;52466097]Winglet really delivered with the short, excellent job. Now, I saw that in the eviction notice the guys from blu recived it said that they should leave the property , being the last day to leave the 16th of july, I know is sunday but is that releated to the actual release of the update?. Sorry if im sounding dumb, but im been waiting for the update a really long time (like all of you I guess) I thought the update was going to go live today and didnt have any plans if it didnt so..... should I cancel all my plans for the next week or?[/QUOTE] Since this is an unofficial SFM, the 16th of July likely doesnt mean anything. As for the release date... we don't know. Me and a couple of people are having hopes for next week, some are saying August. In your case, I'd do a plan B for next week - but don't see it as a reliable thing to happen.

[QUOTE=grif;52466113]Not every team has a medic. If Pyro (instead of maps like harvest) is adjusted to make him more capable in open areas, while keeping his undaunted 1v1 close range capabilities, he would become more of a tank than he already is.[/QUOTE] Try to play Pyro in 6s, full time, for a couple of rounds. Or MGE. Then tell me about his "undaunted 1v1 close range capabilities". Pyro is one of the two weakest classes in the game (the other is Spy). And like Spy, he's rather annoying to deal with. So what needs to be done is an increase in power, to make him a true generalist, through changes I and others have suggested to Valve, and a lessening to the aspects of him that make him annoying. After this is done, we can divide the classes into 4 areas: Generalist: Scout, Soldier, Pyro, Demoman Defense: Heavy, Engineer Pick: Sniper, Spy Medic. Medic is just kind of there because every team needs him and his class is unlike any of the others. And of course Spy would need to be strengthened in a way that allows him to pick just as effectively as Sniper. [B]I think the biggest point people need to understand is that annoying =/= powerful. Pyro and Spy are annoying to deal with, but they're also WEAK. We can fix both problems.[/B]

[QUOTE=grif;52466113]Pyro has a combination of decent movement speed and the health of a demoman. Pyro is quite meaty and very capable, especially when not in the open. Are people playing on Harvest and demanding changes specifically because of how open this one particular map is? Even then, there are ways to get from one side of Harvest to the other without being seen. If Pyro (instead of maps like harvest) is adjusted to make him more capable in open areas, while keeping his undaunted 1v1 close range capabilities, he would become more of a tank than he already is.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=grif;52466113]his undaunted 1v1 close range capabilities[/QUOTE] Are we playing the same game? Pyro is one of the [i]worst[/i] classes for 1v1. Low-damage inconsistent particle-based streaming damage is laughed at by high-damage hitscan burst-damage that every other class has access to. The closest analog that Pyro has in terms of damage type is the Heavy, but Sasha may as well deal burst damage at that range. Pyro has okay bulk with no advanced mobility. Pyro has okay movespeed with no range to use it. Pyro's only saving graces are that fire penetrates through multiple targets (which is a bad engagement unless they're oblivious) and that licking someone deals 6 damage a second for 10 seconds...in a game where pointing a gun at someone deals upward of 100 in a single click. Situations in which a Pyro would be good for 1v1 are situations that a Scout could get into but with far superior burst damage to actually kill and better mobility to not only stay alive but to pick and choose which fights to engage in and disengage from.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52466150]Are we playing the same game? Pyro is one of the [i]worst[/i] classes for 1v1. Low-damage inconsistent particle-based streaming damage is laughed at by high-damage hitscan burst-damage that every other class has access to. The closest analog that Pyro has in terms of damage type is the Heavy, but Sasha may as well deal burst damage at that range. Pyro has okay bulk with no advanced mobility. Pyro has okay movespeed with no range to use it. Pyro's only saving graces are that fire penetrates through multiple targets (which is a bad engagement unless they're oblivious) and that licking someone deals 6 damage a second for 10 seconds...in a game where pointing a gun at someone deals upward of 100 in a single click. Situations in which a Pyro would be good for 1v1 are situations that a Scout could get into but with far superior burst damage to actually kill and better mobility to not only stay alive but to pick and choose which fights to engage in and disengage from.[/QUOTE] At one point, I suggested that we increase his fire damage by 3x while reducing the size of the fire hitboxes by 2/3, while making it so what you see = what hurts the enemy. Now, that may or may not have been the part of that post that people heavily disagreed with, but I'm not entirely sure it wouldn't fix the "fire is weak" problem that you're speaking of here... EDIT: to those who say things like "w+m1 will be cancer if that happens", it would be VERY hard to track well enough to get all the particles into the opponent if the hitboxes were reduced by 2/3 size. You could likely walk up to a Pyro that couldn't aim and murder them. Making those hitboxes smaller while allowing the player to see where the hitboxes are through an attachment of a visible particle, etc, would be the first step in the "make pyro not annoying but have a higher skill ceiling" journey.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52466157]At one point, I suggested that we increase his fire damage by 3x while reducing the size of the fire hitboxes by 2/3, while making it so what you see = what hurts the enemy. Now, that may or may not have been the part of that post that people heavily disagreed with, but I'm not entirely sure it wouldn't fix the "fire is weak" problem that you're speaking of here... EDIT: to those who say things like "w+m1 will be cancer if that happens", it would be VERY hard to track well enough to get all the particles into the opponent if the hitboxes were reduced by 2/3 size. You could likely walk up to a Pyro that couldn't aim and murder them. Making those hitboxes smaller while allowing the player to see where the hitboxes are through an attachment of a visible particle, etc, would be the first step in the "make pyro not annoying but have a higher skill ceiling" journey.[/QUOTE] At this point in time I generally ignore anyone who uses w+m1 as a complaint. It's pretty bad how it somehow got exclusive to pyro when other classes can also do it and be significantly more effective at it.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52466127]Since this is an unofficial SFM, the 16th of July likely doesnt mean anything. As for the release date... we don't know. Me and a couple of people are having hopes for next week, some are saying August. In your case, I'd do a plan B for next week - but don't see it as a reliable thing to happen.[/QUOTE] Oh well, they usually update it the thursday right? I dont belive they would delay it as far as august..... lets pray is this next week

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52466157]EDIT: to those who say things like "w+m1 will be cancer if that happens", it would be VERY hard to track well enough to get all the particles into the opponent if the hitboxes were reduced by 2/3 size. You could likely walk up to a Pyro that couldn't aim and murder them. [/QUOTE] Actually, I don't think reducing flame particle bounding boxes by ⅔ would have much of an effect at all. I don't know if you saw the video I posted here earlier, but the bounding boxes of every other projectile in the game are really tiny (and the same as one another), maybe even smaller than the flame boxes would be at only a third of their original size. The player's bounding box/collision hull on the other hand, is quite large in comparison. I'll post the video again for anyone who missed it the first time: [video]https://youtu.be/eI9iakXY7e4[/video]

What weapon skins do you guys want to see?

[QUOTE=Fraklin;52466273]What weapon skins do you guys want to see?[/QUOTE] Tomislav in black and red.

[QUOTE=Fraklin;52466273]What weapon skins do you guys want to see?[/QUOTE] None, Preferably. The last few waves have been pretty lackluster, and they're way too expensive for what you get. The only one that really stood out to me was the War Room minigun, and even it re-uses a map texture.

[QUOTE=Fraklin;52466273]What weapon skins do you guys want to see?[/QUOTE] it's gonna just be camouflage and hawaiian shirt textures randomly placed on guns

[QUOTE=starblaster64;52466259]Actually, I don't think reducing flame particle bounding boxes by ⅔ would have much of an effect at all. I don't know if you saw the video I posted here earlier, but the bounding boxes of every other projectile in the game is really tiny (and the same as one another), maybe even smaller than the flame boxes would be at only a third of their original size. The player's bounding box/collision hull on the other hand, is quite large in comparison. I'll post the video again for anyone who missed it the first time: [video]https://youtu.be/eI9iakXY7e4[/video][/QUOTE] Then instead of boxes, make the flame particles simple moving points with visible particles attached to them.

[QUOTE=Fraklin;52466273]What weapon skins do you guys want to see?[/QUOTE] sandvich skins that turn it into a different kind of sandwich, like adding rye bread or making it a grilled cheese or blt battle-scared sandviches have mold and/or burn the bread i'm joking but at least those would actually look good and be worth a laugh

[QUOTE=DatHarry;52466288]it's gonna just be camouflage and hawaiian shirt textures randomly placed on guns[/QUOTE] Hawaiian shirt textures would be neat to see.

[QUOTE=Fraklin;52466273]What weapon skins do you guys want to see?[/QUOTE] I want something that isn't just a repeating pattern, I want something fitted to the gun, like one that added notches to a gun, or something one of the mercs wrote on it. Or a skin that makes the shotgun look like it has a heat shield. Skins that give the guns different types of wood or metal.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52466328]I want something that isn't just a repeating pattern, I want something fitted to the gun, like one that added notches to a gun, or something one of the mercs wrote on it. Or a skin that makes the shotgun look like it has a heat shield. Skins that give the guns different types of wood or metal.[/QUOTE] That sounds like the best thing, but I'm not sure if they're going all out with the skins this time.

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;52466277]See y'all in August.[/QUOTE] Looks like a blind [I]optimism[/I] !

[QUOTE=Fraklin;52466273]What weapon skins do you guys want to see?[/QUOTE] a Pyroland version of the Scorch shot, and hopefully some shor inspired stuff like experration date

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52466279]Tomislav in black and red.[/QUOTE] Black and Red's kind of over played IMO. Of all color combinations out there I see those two put together far more frequent then other picks lol.