Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Rhike;52318969]I've played more than 5 seasons of competitive TF2, and meleeing rarely ever happens, and when it does (score a kill), the entire comms just blow up; it's a miracle. I think we just have different mentalities. From my view, I never get hit by melee crits because I'm smart enough to avoid them (100% of the competitive playerbase), and I expect other people to be so as well. From your view (as I see it), you probably think that it's just unfair and the 0.001% (pulled out of my ass %) chance of ACTUALLY getting a hit without actively trying and ACTUALLY getting a crit is imbalanced and not competitive. Same applies to pubs. If you killed someone with a melee crit, the [B]enemy[/B] should feel bad because they allowed you to get this close. All of this argument comes down to the fact that you people seem to care about the poor guys that don't know how to counter a melee, or you think that a laughably low % chance that a smart player would get caught by a random melee crit is not worth the hype and the adrenaline and possible suspense the crit will cause. (Crit pans.) I do hope you realize we're talking about melee crits, read the entire thing if you don't.[/QUOTE] Melee is supposed to be the last resort, the trashdump, the dumpsterfire of combat. People are going to blow up because seeing someone win with melee is supposed to be a rare and incredible sight, not a common thing. I know we are talking about melee crits, it doesnt matter. You could delete crits from the game and only give it to the sandman, it would still be a stupid thing because it once again is luck and luck has no place in a competitive game. Doesn't matter if the guy somehow got close to a player or not, if he kills him with a crit, it's because he won a dicethrow, not because he was better at the game. [QUOTE=Blackavar;52319172]I've heard someone say that all melee weapons should have a slight speed boost when out, unless labelled otherwise. Not too complicated, and gives melee a use for all classes. Though it might make scout kinda stupid[/QUOTE] That was my idea and I will continue to think that thats the best version to make stock viable.

-snipwhydidntitedit?-

Who cares about stock melee weapons? Don't balance for the slot, balance for how the weapons affect the entire game. It's the same thing in some other cases: the Medic's crossbow is the superior choice in almost all situations as his primary slot choice, but it's such a fun and interesting weapon that it really doesn't matter. Stock melee weapons are fine as they are, no-one is going to mourn them not being used that much. What's the benefit here?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319172]I've heard someone say that all melee weapons should have a slight speed boost when out, unless labelled otherwise. Not too complicated, and gives melee a use for all classes. Though it might make scout kinda stupid[/QUOTE] Sounds like a good mechanic to me but ffs not on heavy's melee

[QUOTE=Tinker;52319177]Who cares about stock melee weapons? Don't balance for the slot, balance for how the weapons affect the entire game. It's the same thing in some other cases: the Medic's crossbow is the superior choice in almost all situations as his primary slot choice, but it's such a fun and interesting weapon that it really doesn't matter. Stock melee weapons are fine as they are, no-one is going to mourn them not being used that much. What's the benefit here?[/QUOTE] choice, obviously. though I think ALL melee weapons should have the speed boost, I also think all weapons should in some way be viable. and you do that by giving actual downsides to the most used weapons in the game and actual upsides to what are essentially straight downgrades from stock. [editline]6th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=kos8bit;52319186]Sounds like a good mechanic to me but ffs not on heavy's melee[/QUOTE] what is with you people and making sure heavy can't move faster than a snail at all times. the speed boost would likely be no faster than 10%-20%

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52318780]iirc in the hydro map demo they stated that they initially put random crits in for melee only in order to incentivize players to actually use it, as all of the stock weapons were designed to be better in every way compared to the melee system. This is also why melee weapons have much higher crit chances than guns and honestly, I agree with this idea (with the exception of demoknight). The only class that should get into melee range is spy and even then he has a major edge in melee fights. As for why guns randomly crit I have absolutely no idea, and this "feature" of guns randomly critting should be removed or reduced in the future.[/QUOTE] Did you mean the Hydro developer commentary? Neither crits nor melee are mentioned. There's only this bit about crits from the Gravel Pit commentary. "Critical hits are one of the features that resulted from our focus on pacing. The Critical hits system attempts to slightly influence the highs and lows of the game by increasing the chance of a Critical hit based upon the player's recent performance. In summary, the better you're doing the more likely you'll continue to do well. This helps create those rare high moments where a single player goes on a rampage and gets three or four kills in rapid succession."

[QUOTE=Upgrade;52319216] "Critical hits are one of the features that resulted from our focus on pacing. The Critical hits system attempts to slightly influence the highs and lows of the game by increasing the chance of a Critical hit based upon the player's recent performance. In summary, the better you're doing the more likely you'll continue to do well. This helps create those rare high moments where a single player goes on a rampage and gets three or four kills in rapid succession."[/QUOTE] And this quote obviously has nothing to do with a competitive environment, since comp didn't exist back then. Are there any quotes on melee crits?

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52319093]Anyone who thinks random crits should be standard in the game in any capacity should go back to Reddit or SCUD. The debate was settled years ago.[/QUOTE] anyone who doesn't* We actually had a debate on the topic, reddit and spuf didn't, they just refuse it on principle without giving it a thought. Random crits can be done right, the way they work currently is bad.

[QUOTE=Drury;52319241]Random crits can be done right, the way they work currently is bad.[/QUOTE] How do you think a random burst of 3x damage can be done right?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319246]How do you think a random burst of 3x damage can be done right?[/QUOTE] I'm tired to repeat that at this point - we are talking about the mechanic, not exact values

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319234]And this quote obviously has nothing to do with a competitive environment, since comp didn't exist back then. Are there any quotes on melee crits?[/QUOTE] I cannot find quotes on melee crits in the developer commentary unless there's an interview floating around somewhere.

[QUOTE=kos8bit;52319248]I'm tired to repeat that at this point - we are talking about the mechanic, not exact values[/QUOTE] Fine. How do you think a random burst of extra damage can be done right? 1.5x? 2x? 5x? 10%-25% chance at all times? Better chance if you're not doing so well? All of these things complicate the game when we could just do the damage the weapons can do and not have to worry about being hurt more because of a dice roll.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319270] All of these things complicate the game when we could just do the damage the weapons can do and not have to worry about being hurt more because of a dice roll.[/QUOTE] I honestly don't see how significant decrease of chance of being killed by random crit by limiting it to certain type of weapon with very limited range is complicating the game and suddently making dice roll a bigger issue than it is currently

[QUOTE=Chuggoth;52319310]What if said damage burst will be set to activate on a certain number of hits(gunslinger)/damage dealt to your opponent?[/QUOTE] That already was brought up and they think this is complicating the game as well Too, fucking, confusing for new players, i guess...

[URL="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vnU_H9ZkYF8"]I figured the math and statistics would speak for themselves, but clearly people don't understand why these are important. Please watch the entirety of this video, and then reattempt your pro-crits argument with something other than a subjective enjoyment fallacy. [/URL] [QUOTE=Drury;52319241]anyone who doesn't* We actually had a debate on the topic, reddit and spuf didn't, they just refuse it on principle without giving it a thought. Random crits can be done right, the way they work currently is bad.[/QUOTE] And the debate was settled years ago, with people realizing that dealing massive, inconsistent damage resulting in cheap, infuriating kills is not a good way to balance a game or give anything a "casual" feel. I'm going to be blunt here, there's nothing casual about dying stupidly or getting a kill you didn't deserve. There are already plenty of ways in this to accomplish that with little effort or risk on your part that don't involve RNG mechanics that debase the point of the game. I wonder why our modern competition doesn't have them. Oh right, because the devs realize that in a proper game with vast skill, class choice, map, and loadout disparities, including a mechanic that creates nothing but unfair outcomes and net negative experiences for the players is a goddamn joke.

Random crits is one of Valve's stupidest ideas stemming from the launch days of TF2. Just like damage spread and bullet spread, it's a 10 year old gimmick that needs to be killed off. I'm glad Jill is at least trying to go in the right direction here.

I don't think the community [I]really[/I] knows what it wants. When crits were removed from casual, people were really pissed. Then when they were re-added, people complain about them.

[QUOTE=RetroFan987;52319434]I don't think the community [I]really[/I] knows what it wants. When crits were removed from casual, people were really pissed. Then when they were re-added, people complain about them.[/QUOTE] When were they removed?

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52319448]When were they removed?[/QUOTE] Never. They were always there.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52319359][URL="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vnU_H9ZkYF8"]I figured the math and statistics would speak for themselves, but clearly people don't understand why these are important. Please watch the entirety of this video, and then reattempt your pro-crits argument with something other than a subjective enjoyment fallacy. [/URL] And the debate was settled years ago, with people realizing that dealing massive, inconsistent damage resulting in cheap, infuriating kills is not a good way to balance a game or give anything a "casual" feel. I'm going to be blunt here, there's nothing casual about dying stupidly or getting a kill you didn't deserve. There are already plenty of ways in this to accomplish that with little effort or risk on your part that don't involve RNG mechanics that debase the point of the game. I wonder why our modern competition doesn't have them. Oh right, because the devs realize that in a proper game with vast skill, class choice, map, and loadout disparities, including a mechanic that creates nothing but unfair outcomes and net negative experiences for the players is a goddamn joke.[/QUOTE] I still hold the opinion that melee crits are easily preventable by a smart player, and cannot be abused that much if the crit chance gimmick is removed. This is still an improvement to the current random crit system. Once again, you could also make stock melees viable if you give those random melee crits to it only. Would it be more enjoyable without random crits at all? An indefinite yes. Would I miss critical weapon swings? Yes. Say, a 5% chance on every swing to be a crit? Still bad for you? You won't like any randomness in your game? The actual crit hitting on you is going to be so rare you'd be very surprised to get killed by it more than once per two days or so. That is, if you position yourself correctly. I do respect your opinion, just stating mine. They are both correct in the whole scheme of things. Also, Drury never said the crits are good as they are right now.

What if random crits were removed entirely, for all weapons, but all melee weapons (or at least the ones that don't have "no random crits" as part of their stats) were upgraded to have the "3-hit" crit mechanic of the Gunslinger?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319246]How do you think a random burst of 3x damage can be done right?[/QUOTE] If we're being pedantic like this, having shit aim and scoring a random headshot should also be unacceptable. TF2 is full of random shit. Sometimes players play erratically and are hard to predict, sometimes you round a corner and walk into some bullshit. As you get better, you learn to take your chances, like a poker player. If I go around this corner, what are the chances of me running into a Pyro? Is it worth risking when I'm being chased by a Soldier? I think he might be out of rockets, so he probably can't rocket jump up to me, but I'm not sure. All unknown variables, you have to trust your gut to make the right choices, moment by moment. Random crits are a similar type of diceroll, but unlike all those other things, here you can't really trust your gut. Even if you know crit chance increases with damage done over the last 20 seconds up to 20%, it's nigh impossible to calculate on the fly, and 20% isn't exactly great odds. It's mostly just... Random bullshit, completely unexpected and out of nowhere. Melee crits are kind of better from a tactical standpoint, because the crit chance is much greater. When you take a pan out, you know what you're in for, it's gonna be crit city. And as you run towards an adversary, he knows too. You just don't fuck with the pan. Being crit-killed by a rocket launcher is fucking infuriating; getting crit-killed by a pan is just business as usual. There's a sense of reliability there, but there's also that sense of doubt - that crit chance isn't 100%. Same as the chance of rounding a corner and running into a pyro isn't 100%. It's not a guaranteed thing, but to a skilled player with the option not to surrender his fate to them, it may as well be. However, sometimes you may run into a situation where risking that pan, or the corner, may just save your skin if you get lucky. Again, this isn't a rare scenario and doesn't apply only to random crits and corners - TF2 is an [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information]imperfect information game[/url], and as such you are forced to make educated guesses often. You don't always know where all the players are, you don't keep track of their clips, sometimes you have no idea what classes they are playing, but based on your previous experience you can weigh in on the possibilities and act on the odds that you like. Random crit chance is just a more literal example of this, but not really unfitting to the whole concept of the game. There are only two issues with the way crits on melees work now - the confusing damage ramp that helps pubstompers more than new players, and how there's no way to immediately tell your crit chance. Both would be solved by getting rid of the ramp and setting the crit chance to a fixed value, then communicating it in melee item descriptions. Guns shouldn't have crits at all because there's no tactical merit to it - if you keep the crit chance low, it's going to feel too unreliable to add any real depth and basically just be a meme (like it is now), and if you yank it up the game's gonna turn into a critfest and all tactical optinons reduced to "never risk an engagement ever"

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52319494]What if random crits were removed entirely, for all weapons, but all melee weapons (or at least the ones that don't have "no random crits" as part of their stats) were upgraded to have the "3-hit" crit mechanic of the Gunslinger?[/QUOTE] That would buff demoknights but overall be okay I guess. Better than fullcrits at random on weapons. Point still stands - rndcrits are shit and they should be disposed of. [QUOTE=Drury;52319537]If we're being pedantic like this, having shit aim and scoring a random headshot should also be unacceptable. TF2 is full of random shit. Sometimes players play erratically and are hard to predict, sometimes you round a corner and walk into some bullshit. As you get better, you learn to take your chances, like a poker player. If I go around this corner, what are the chances of me running into a Pyro? Is it worth risking when I'm being chased by a Soldier? I think he might be out of rockets, so he probably can't rocket jump up to me, but I'm not sure. All unknown variables, you have to trust your gut to make the right choices, moment by moment. Random crits are a similar type of diceroll, but unlike all those other things, here you can't really trust your gut. Even if you know crit chance increases with damage done over the last 20 seconds up to 20%, it's nigh impossible to calculate on the fly, and 20% isn't exactly great odds. It's mostly just... Random bullshit, completely unexpected and out of nowhere. Melee crits are kind of better from a tactical standpoint, because the crit chance is much greater. When you take a pan out, you know what you're in for, it's gonna be crit city. And as you run towards an adversary, he knows too. You just don't fuck with the pan. Being crit-killed by a rocket launcher is fucking infuriating; getting crit-killed by a pan is just business as usual. There's a sense of reliability there, but there's also that sense of doubt - that crit chance isn't 100%. Same as the chance of rounding a corner and running into a pyro isn't 100%. It's not a guaranteed thing, but to a skilled player with the option not to surrender his fate to them, it may as well be. However, sometimes you may run into a situation where risking that pan, or the corner, may just save your skin if you get lucky. Again, this isn't a rare scenario and doesn't apply only to random crits and corners - TF2 is an [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information"]imperfect information game[/URL], and as such you are forced to make educated guesses often. You don't always know where all the players are, you don't keep track of their clips, sometimes you have no idea what classes they are playing, but based on your previous experience you can weigh in on the possibilities and act on the odds that you like. Random crit chance is just a more literal example of this, but not really unfitting to the whole concept of the game. There are only two issues with the way crits on melees work now - the confusing damage ramp that helps pubstompers more than new players, and how there's no way to immediately tell your crit chance. Both would be solved by getting rid of the ramp and setting the crit chance to a fixed value, then communicating it in melee item descriptions. Guns shouldn't have crits at all because there's no tactical merit to it - if you keep the crit chance low, it's going to feel too unreliable to add any real depth and basically just be a meme (like it is now), and if you yank it up the game's gonna turn into a critfest and all tactical optinons reduced to "never risk an engagement ever"[/QUOTE] Team coordination removes all of those issues except randomcrits. Your teammates (like an invisible spy) can call out positions of enemies, a soldier jumping you, a sentry being destroyed, all of that really, but cannot call out "Hey, diego.sanchez.2007 will get a randomcrit on you, don't engage"

I'd be fine if they wanted to increase the base damage of melee weapons, but I'm going to have to side with the the game having no business adding a "random attribute" into the game, even for stock melee weapons. Well, except for Demoman and Sniper due to close quarters is suppose to be their weakness, and Spy and Engineer since their melee have special attributes. Those should stay the default damage values.

[QUOTE=geel9;52316632]Restricting drops to casual would not kill community servers. It will kill idle servers.[/QUOTE] This could work to some degree, but negatives that are tied with it are just as bad. As with much of anything that requires you to join a Valve Server to experience Valve related events, you build up a habit of connecting to their official servers. Before you realize it you'll be joining casual servers on a daily basis instead of the one or two community servers you frequently played on. I'm not suggesting [i]everyone[/i] would succumb to a habit change, but I'm willing to bet enough to make a difference in the community server population will. Remember those "hacker bots" I've mentioned before? The ones that can do simple shit like follow you around as a medic, or a spinbot? I've got reason to believe the "front" on creating bots that can mimic simple gameplay behavior (although very sporadic) already exist. In fact, starting around early 2016 I witnessed the first signs of "Idle Bots" designed to idle in Valve Servers with movement that could dodge the Idle Auto Kick. To a human, it looked very obviously suspicious, but if you paid no attention to it, it could remain in the game without getting kicked. Just yesterday I witnessed another instance of this, but failed to get a recording. (These are extremely rare, and this was the third or fourth time I'd ever seen one) Albeit this one was a bit more fleshed out and was capable of more than just sporadic movement that could dodge the idle kick. This particular bot was capable of firing at the enemy, and moving around the map as if it had a mind of its own. It was playing as scout on a nucleus, and reminded me very much of the offline AI that valve has. Until I get footage of one of these, I can't backup my claims with proof... Albeit the existence of these bots shouldn't be hard to believe. [i]6-Man Idle-bot stacks that auto F2 kick-votes....[/i]

[QUOTE=Drury;52319537]Being crit-killed by a rocket launcher is fucking infuriating; getting crit-killed by a pan is just business as usual.[/QUOTE] No, being crit-killed by anything is infuriating.

[QUOTE=quake84;52319542]Team coordination removes all of those issues except randomcrits. Your teammates (like an invisible spy) can call out positions of enemies, a soldier jumping you, a sentry being destroyed, all of that really, but cannot call out "Hey, diego.sanchez.2007 will get a randomcrit on you, don't engage"[/QUOTE] That'd be more like "that demo's got a pan, engage at melee range at your own risk" Even though that'd be as weird a comm as "demo's got full clip, heavy not likely to stand a chance" I mean that squarely falls into game sense. You look and see what's happening, make the decisions on your own.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319187]choice, obviously. though I think ALL melee weapons should have the speed boost, I also think all weapons should in some way be viable. and you do that by giving actual downsides to the most used weapons in the game and actual upsides to what are essentially straight downgrades from stock. [/QUOTE] I don't really understand why the stock weapons have to be the ones to change, when stock is... stock, it's there to be simple across the board. Why does stock need to get buffed just so it's a viable option? It doesn't actually change anything to the game. Not to mention that even without that "choice" some melee weapons were never really used in the first place past joke fights, like the Heavy's fists or Pyro's axe.

[QUOTE=Tinker;52319620]I don't really understand why the stock weapons have to be the ones to change, when stock is... stock, it's there to be simple across the board. Why does stock need to get buffed just so it's a viable option? It doesn't actually change anything to the game. Not to mention that even without that "choice" some melee weapons were never really used in the first place past joke fights, like the Heavy's fists or Pyro's axe.[/QUOTE] Because for stock to be a somewhat acceptable choice you'd have to get rid of a lot of fun concepts. If stock is by default somewhat of an utility, not only do those other weapons stay the way they are, but stock in general becomes a lot more interesting.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52319592]No, being crit-killed by anything is infuriating.[/QUOTE] Not to mention that receiving random crits feels like hand holding from Valve because they feel I can't get kills on my own.