Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=Os-Prey;52357146]I love that this goober thinks the degreaser is """balanced""" when it objectivly overshadows all of the other flamethrowers. Also, his whole thing about "only pyro should set things on fire!" is kind of stupid, especially his ideas on """replacments""" for fire.[/QUOTE] reaaaallly hoping valve doesn't take any of his recommendations tbh you know I've seen a lot of balancing recommendations and ideas here on facepunch, some of which I agree with, some of which i don't, but i don't think I've ever seen balancing ideas so poorly conceived as HiGPS', and that's saying something though to be fair, I also don't make a habit of browsing SPUF and other places where bad balance changes are recommended on a daily basis

[QUOTE=Contra132;52357206]reaaaallly hoping valve doesn't take any of his recommendations tbh you know I've seen a lot of balancing recommendations and ideas here on facepunch, some of which I agree with, some of which i don't, but i don't think I've ever seen balancing ideas so poorly conceived as HiGPS', and that's saying something though to be fair, I also don't make a habit of browsing SPUF and other places where bad balance changes are recommended on a daily basis[/QUOTE] people still use SPUF at all? I thought that place got rightly wiped off the map.

This Discussion about GPS' Spreadsheet is basically just a simulation of how much this thread will implode onto itself once the Blog Post releases. This week.

[QUOTE=gjw22;52357175] TONIGHTS THE NIGHT[/QUOTE] ...for weekly maintenance on Steam! On that, you were correct. [editline]14th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Fluury;52357232]This Discussion about GPS' Spreadsheet is basically just a simulation of how much this thread will implode onto itself once the Blog Post releases. This week.[/QUOTE] I think you underestimate the power of the Facepunch posting habits.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52356104]The person who had a picture up on their screen and tabbed over to something saying "Top Secret" sounds like Jill.[/QUOTE] I'd bet money it was fucking Jill

[QUOTE=DatHarry;52356254]I had a dream I got 4 or 5 tf2 workshop item accept emails while I was on a fishing boat (I never do anything of the sort) but then I got a call from Eric where he said "haha oops we meant to delete those, not accept them" and I just put my phone in the water[/QUOTE] I just keep getting dreams where they finally release the update, but they add some of the absolute worst hats from the workshop in with everything else.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52357206]though to be fair, I also don't make a habit of browsing SPUF and other places where bad balance changes are recommended on a daily basis[/QUOTE] SPUF isn't a thing anymore. It [URL="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80"]redirects you to the Steam Discussions[/URL] ever since June 5th.

[QUOTE=geel9;52357324]I'd bet money it was fucking Jill[/QUOTE] Yeah Jill has always come off as a bit of a troll/joker to me based on his posts. Coming into this thread not long before a major update after not having posted here for such a long time and then to give us a long post about something like upcoming changes to TF2's texture streaming is probably funniest way he could troll this thread. [QUOTE=-Banshee-;52357350]SPUF isn't a thing anymore. It [URL="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80"]redirects you to the Steam Discussions[/URL] ever since June 5th.[/QUOTE] STFU's days were always numbered once they added message boards for every game directly in Steam.

[QUOTE=-Banshee-;52357350]SPUF isn't a thing anymore. It [URL="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80"]redirects you to the Steam Discussions[/URL] ever since June 5th.[/QUOTE] yeah, I know. I was just referring to it and places like it where bad balance recommendations are/were commonplace.

[QUOTE=hahagoni_r;52354824][B]1. [/B]So HiGPS has basically just uploaded a video reiterating what was already posted to his Steam group, but now we know for sure that Valve does know about his [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10vqucUk3dVbNOo_vNG36Vr5UqNXCxaGhtaWM_9dVwyI/edit#gid=457538217"]balance spreadsheet[/URL] (you can comment on stuff to express your thoughts, by the way)[/QUOTE] I love how he lists the liberty launcher as underpowered, but then suggests to nerf it

I know I'm probably wrong, but it feels like weapons shouldn't just be balanced around competitive mode.

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;52357812]That implies that balance for comp would be bad for balance of the overall game.[/QUOTE] Its a weird situation. 6v6 is one of the most popular competitive modes for TF2 is played often however, due to the few enemy players (6 instead of 12) certain weapons are better since: 1) less reflexes needed due to less enemies 2) more powerful effects of weapons due to how the meta is For example: In 6v6 the quick fix was op. Completely understandable since it heal really fast compared to the damage the 6 enemies weere doing and it allowed medics to jump with soldier and demo across the map. Eventually both medics had to use the quick fix to be even but then it caused stalemates so it was banned. Now compare the quick fix healing against 12 people instead 6. Now people can argue that it might still be powerful but if we look at it logically 12 people will do more damage then 6 people. Now not happy with that example, then I will give you one that is a bit more vivid. The vaccinator. The 6v6 meta revolves around 2 soldiers, 2 scouts, 1 demo and 1 medic. This means medic only needs to think about bullet and blast resistance (no thoughts needed adding flame resistance into the mix). A good medic can easily tell what is the biggest threat to resist against especially if its against 6 people not 12. Vaccinator is powerful in 6v6. Vaccinator in 12v12 is more difficult. You have classes not normally seen in 6v6 like spy and sniper. Snipers and spys are less vivid in the battle field from a pre occupied medic perspective. Pyros are more evident in 12v12s and a mixture of damage types is more difficult to protect against. Now this is not me saying anything in terms of buffs and nerfs. Just outlining that a game mode and the quantity of players can influence how op or balance a weapon can be.

[QUOTE=Slurg;52357794]I know I'm probably wrong, but it feels like weapons shouldn't just be balanced around competitive mode.[/QUOTE] balancing for competitive works perfectly in casual, the opposite doesn't apply For example, the crit-a-cola "nerf" didn't change anything in comp, by the time mini crits apply the scout had already killed half the team and got out, but it somewhat works in casual because the typical crit a cola user in casual drinks it, goes in, miss all 6 shots then gets deleted by a rocket once mini crits are in, that's why not many people use it in casual, the downsides only apply if you suck, it only becomes a problem with higher skilled players

You don't "balance" for Casual. Once Competitive is really out and the main "TF2 Experience", Casual will be the side game, [I]less relevant[/I], if you will. It's a big part of the game, but honestly given how batshit balance is right now, balancing completely for Competitive would probably make Casual a ton better.

Balancing for competitive is a joke, if they care that much they can use plugins to fix it or just ban items that don't fit their format. The vast majority of players don't play the 'competitive' mode.

[QUOTE=hahagoni_r;52358291]Just want to note this, what I got from what GPS says in his videos and posts, his spreadsheet is [I]supposed to be[/I] balanced in a 12v12 scenario where every player is competent, so it doesn't exactly fit into what the devs are going for with 6v6 and "bridging the gap" (and some of his ideas, especially the melee ones are gimmicky). [T]http://i.imgur.com/wC5ZIqI.png[/T] I was asleep so I missed what happened, what is this for? You can comment about what you think, not vandalise the thing[/QUOTE] Seems like some people were kinda upset GPS' Balancing opinions, sad really. [QUOTE=Daakun;52358287]Balancing for competitive is a joke, if they care that much they can use plugins to fix it or just ban items that don't fit their format. The vast majority of players don't play the 'competitive' mode.[/QUOTE] That has less to do with the fact that people arent interested in comp but because the general system of it is trash atm, it'll get fixed with the Update. Probably.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52358312]That has less to do with the fact that people arent interested in comp but because the general system of it is trash atm, it'll get fixed with the Update. Probably.[/QUOTE] Why would anyone pay for a competitive pass for a terrible experience? It doesn't matter what Valve tries to do at this point, there's just too much stuff in the game already to ever make a sane competitive mode without also gutting pubs. That plus anyone who actually wants to play TF2 competitively is already doing so outside their walled garden means there's really no point; it's a lot of work for absolutely no reward. The one and only actual benefit I can see is the paywall would keep some of the hackers out. [I][URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dfcMHrF3dGByk-UV8CEDhhhDVBhb3Uo2QC7kWU6ciEs/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0"]Some.[/URL][/I]

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52358185]You don't "balance" for Casual. Once Competitive is really out and the main "TF2 Experience", Casual will be the sideideeo game, [I]less relevant[/I], if you will. It's a big part of the game, but honestly given how dbatshit balance is right now, balancing completely for Competitive would probably make Casual a ton better.[/QUOTE] I don't know how I feel about the idea of comp overshadowing casual, scary thought imo

[QUOTE=Daakun;52358355]Why would anyone pay for a competitive pass for a terrible experience? It doesn't matter what Valve tries to do at this point, there's just too much stuff in the game already to ever make a sane competitive mode without also gutting pubs. That plus anyone who actually wants to play TF2 competitively is already doing so outside their walled garden means there's really no point; it's a lot of work for absolutely no reward. The one and only actual benefit I can see is the paywall would keep some of the hackers out. [I][URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dfcMHrF3dGByk-UV8CEDhhhDVBhb3Uo2QC7kWU6ciEs/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0"]Some.[/URL][/I][/QUOTE] You don't have to pay to, it's free since anyone and their mother has the mobile thing anyways. Either way, the community has an interest in competitive, if the mode was fixed in the way that it had an actual ELO system, better maps, and class limits, it would be fine. And two of those are already likely coming to it. Just because you dislike competitive doesnt mean the rest of the peeps do.

Outside of the TF2 competitive community, how often do you hear about the TF2 competitive community? You don't. There's no hype behind it because it's an incredibly boring game to spectate, especially in the often pushed 6v6 mode. I'm not saying it can't be fun to play, it's just never going to be a big deal in the same way as games that are fun to [I]watch[/I] are, so trying to tailor content to the scene is pointless; they're already fully capable of taking care of themselves and nothing Valve does will change viewership.

[QUOTE=Daakun;52358608]Outside of the TF2 competitive community, how often do you hear about the TF2 competitive community? You don't. There's no hype behind it because it's an incredibly boring game to spectate, especially in the often pushed 6v6 mode. I'm not saying it can't be fun to play, it's just never going to be a big deal in the same way as games that are fun to [I]watch[/I] are, so trying to tailor content to the scene is pointless; they're already fully capable of taking care of themselves and nothing Valve does will change viewership.[/QUOTE] You are not seeing what comp tf2 as what it [I]could[/I] be. The reason you dont hear a lot about the tf2 comp community is because it isnt easily accessible - something the official comp mode was supposed to change and failed at, this month we'll have another go at it. And once again you finding it boring to watch doesn't mean it is like that for everyone. I find CS:GO incredibly boring yet it's the top dog.

Here's hoping they loosen up the graphic restrictions on competitive too.

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;52358861]Huh, not being directly involved with a competitive community makes you hear significantly less of that competitive community. Strange.[/QUOTE] That just proves his point, popular sports are talked about by people totally disconnected from the competitive scene. If the only people who talk about are the ones involved, that just shows how lacking in popularity it is...

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;52358861]Huh, not being directly involved with a competitive community makes you hear significantly less of that competitive community. Strange.[/QUOTE] That's not his point at all.

The only games I'm aware of that have people outside of their scenes actively talking about them are games with properly-integrated Competitive Matchmaking and a developer-supported scene. Overwatch, League, Dota and CS:GO meet all of these requirements, and have competitive play properly integrated with their main game. (there are a few exceptions- such as Melee- but those are mainly within the FGC, which sort of does its own thing and is somewhat of an anomaly when compared to other competitive scenes) Meanwhile, TF2 does not have competitive play integrated with its main game- its Competitive Mode is a 12-man pub with abandon penalties, and little more. The developers also neither fund nor support the TF2 competitive scene, Highlander, 6s or otherwise. I believe it's extremely disingenuous to dismiss TF2 competitive as a dead concept when it has yet to be given a proper chance at life. Perhaps it will fail, perhaps it won't, but as it stands it has not been given that chance. However, I believe that when given the chance, it will thrive. If only because it has managed to survive for nearly a decade, purely community-funded, produced and driven. The talent of the competitive scene, the organizers in that scene, the casters in that scene and the [I]players[/I] in that scene are all astounding, especially for having supported themselves for this long. Competitive certainly isn't without its problems, but these problems, if addressed intelligently by the TF Team, can all be fixed. Competitive TF2 is the most satisfying gaming experience I've had in my life, and I believe that if made easier to get into and given [I]incentives[/I] to get into, a lot of players will end up agreeing with me.

[QUOTE=AD/HD;52359041]That just proves his point, popular sports are talked about by people totally disconnected from the competitive scene. If the only people who talk about are the ones involved, that just shows how lacking in popularity it is...[/QUOTE] What? That's not how it works. People that don't play CS:GO Comp wont talk about it with their friends or something.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52359186]What? That's not how it works. People that don't play CS:GO Comp wont talk about it with their friends or something.[/QUOTE] People fly and fill up entire auditoriums to watch comp Csgo, you don't think they talk about it...

[QUOTE=rolfum;52357751]I love how he lists the liberty launcher as underpowered, but then suggests to nerf it[/QUOTE] he's playing 4th dimensional chess that we cant even begin to understand

[QUOTE=Slurg;52357794]I know I'm probably wrong, but it feels like weapons shouldn't just be balanced around competitive mode.[/QUOTE] Generally, competitive level players will have a better understanding when it comes to weapon balances as breaking down weapons for actual facts can greatly give them a competitive edge. In other words, they'll be able to provide the best facts when it comes to then hows and whys weapons are broken or underpowered and how to best address those issues. When it comes to everywhere else though, I generally like to suggest what I've always called "skill indexing", if a weapon is considered annoying or frustrating against casual players, who probably don't have a good grasp on how to deal with situations as well as a competitive player, a game DEV could look into making changes to a weapon that doesn't effect how functional the weapon works in game, but rather how much effort/skill it takes to actually pull those feats off. The goal here is to keep the weapon's effectiveness the same, while raising or lowering how much effort is required to actually pull said feat off.

[QUOTE=gjw22;52357175]GC is down at 12:38 est. Also a bunch of weird tags and changes to valve server settings right before the fall. TONIGHTS THE NIGHT[/QUOTE] I wanna get excited, but pretty sure that is just maintainace that happens on a regular basis.