Final Major Update Speculation V37 - This is the last MUS thread. Speculate in General Chat. - Games

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52365219]That question is answered easily with a quick trip to the steam discussions.[/QUOTE] ...precipitated on the idea that your ideas are the correct ones and, thus, the steampowered discussions are bad -- [i]because they don't agree with you.[/i]

[QUOTE=Contra132;52365196]what? god no. a single forum, especially one that's mostly comprised of pub players, should [I]not[/I] be the biggest determiner of what balance changes are and aren't made to the game. I'd certainly weigh facepunch higher than reddit, to be fair, since the general level of experience is much higher, but even so that sounds like a recipe for disaster.[/QUOTE] sort of tongue-in-cheek, of course. but what's a better place for balance discussion? if you can find a place, let me know, otherwise i'm staying here [editline]15th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;52365199]It's pretty interesting seeing everyone assume that everyone else is terrible at game balance and that Valve should only listen to [i]the right people.[/i] What if you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=geel9;52365224]...precipitated on the idea that your ideas are the correct ones and, thus, the steampowered discussions are bad -- [i]because they don't agree with you.[/i][/QUOTE] There is a such thing as common sense when it comes to balancing. And it's pretty obvious, looking over steam discussion and /r/tf2, that we have a... bit more (?) common sense

[QUOTE=geel9;52365224]...precipitated on the idea that your ideas are the correct ones and, thus, the steampowered discussions are bad -- [i]because they don't agree with you.[/i][/QUOTE] Well that's quite the uncouth assumption. And no. Rather, because the ideas often found there and elsewhere resemble something completely devoid of any critical balance theory, actual gameplay/development experience, historical and class-specific knowledge of the game whatsoever. Even a reasonably competent player could tell, for example, that the pyro doesn't need to be further nerfed, yet the supposed destructive horrors of W+M1 and how best to curtail it are a topic of great interest in places like this. I smell an appeal to irrelevant authority on the incoming winds, cap'n.

[QUOTE=geel9;52365199]It's pretty interesting seeing everyone assume that everyone else is terrible at game balance and that Valve should only listen to [i]the right people.[/i] What if you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about?[/QUOTE] Clearly we need to nerf the bison.

I've seen equal number of people say the RS is fine on Soldier here and on reddit, no, you're not smarter than reddit, there's just a broader range of people there, same for steam discussion

[QUOTE=geel9;52365199]What if you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about?[/QUOTE] you may be right, but I'll contextualize my balancing philosophy for those who are interested I believe that overall experience and skill should be prioritized above all else when making balancing decisions. Meaning, in my opinion, the most valuable opinions for game balancing are in this order: *[B] Invite, Plat and Prem players.[/B] Invite players are the best by a decent margin out of these three, but also have some biases worth considering as well. * [B]TF devs themselves.[/B] They may make some bad decisions here and there, but the fact I'm still playing this game after so many years and love it still tells me they had to have done something right. * [B]Mid-level competitive players.[/B] Basically Silver/Open and up. * [B]Pubbers with 2-3K+ hours[/B] (depending on development of skill, which varies highly in that chaotic environment. Most of you meet or exceed this bar, as far as I can tell.) *[B] Low-level competitive players.[/B] Iron/Steel and the such. Generally pubbers with not much competitive experience and not much skill to speak of. Certainly a step up from Jimmy.Killer.2010, who just installed the game, but not a huge one. * [B]Reddit.[/B] Uninformed circlejerks dominate this platform. They're right only occasionally. *[B] Unfiltered pub bullshit.[/B] Is that shitty and elitist? Maybe. In general, I just believe that playing TF2 in a high-coordination, high-skill environment weighs a bit heavier than being just another publord. Outside of the situations where I'm being deadweighted by literally the rest of my team, the difference for me between pubstomping when I started playing competitive four years ago and pubstomping now is so marginal it barely matters. Once you reach a certain threshold, all but the most lopsided-against-you games are easily winnable, no matter how gimmicky you're being. In my opinion, long-term pub play after that point stifles or severely slows skill development, since you will no longer be challenged.

I hope the TF2 Team writes a post about "Why we balanced the weapons this way" just to see how they think and reason behind the scenes.

[QUOTE=FalconHBFS;52365307]I hope the TF2 Team writes a post about "Why we balanced the weapons this way" just to see how they think and reason behind the scenes.[/QUOTE] they said they would include that in the balance blog post- their proposed changes and the rationale behind them

[QUOTE=geel9;52365199]It's pretty interesting seeing everyone assume that everyone else is terrible at game balance and that Valve should only listen to [i]the right people.[/i] What if you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about?[/QUOTE] [B]NERF THE BISON VALVE PLZ[/B] In all seriousness though... If you take a look at the underlying factors on [i]both[/i] sides of the fence, you'll see [i]the right people[/i] (more agreeable balance changes imo) with far more hours played than those on the [i]not right[/i] (NERF THE BISON) side of the fence. I don't think they should stop make suggestions though... In fact, the more crazy ideas out there, perhaps the better. Just uh... Note the obviously silly ones as a product of inexperience. [i]Everyone[/i] can have an opinion, but they can't [i]all be right[/i].

The only people truly right about balance are high-level competitive players. If you don't balance the weapons and classes for competitive, the blurring of lines between casual and comp that Valve wants to do cannot occur, because the games are too different. If we want to be like CS:GO with a large esports scene and official tournaments, Valve needs to embrace competitive as it is right now. Even if you disagree with the format, even if you like being a friendly hoovy. It has to be done, or the NA comp scene is going to be dead in 2 years, and this game will go nowhere.

[QUOTE=FalconHBFS;52365307]I hope the TF2 Team writes a post about "Why we balanced the weapons this way" just to see how they think and reason behind the scenes.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=FalconHBFS;52365307][B][I]think and reason[/I][/B][/QUOTE] they don't do either

if valve simply reverts the bison back to how it was i will enjoy this game again

[QUOTE=ikes;52365501]if valve simply reverts the bison back to how it was i will enjoy this game again[/QUOTE] Yeah the Bison badly needs to be reworked and given back it's multiple hit ability. I also feel like reworking the Pomson 6000 to make it Bison like instead of having the shitty cloak and uber drain mechanic would be a good idea. It would give the engie a nice long range harassment primary weapon.

[QUOTE=ikes;52365501]if valve simply reverts the bison back to how it was i will enjoy this game again[/QUOTE] I just started using the bison the month before meet your match was released, and I liked how it worked. I haven't touched it since. :s:

Looks like I was right about Valve releasing the Jungle assets along with the map. Yay for me.

Well, another bout of E3 press coverage has come and gone. I cannot seem to recall an instance where Valve released a major TF2 update during E3.

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52365333]The only people truly right about balance are high-level competitive players. If you don't balance the weapons and classes for competitive, the blurring of lines between casual and comp that Valve wants to do cannot occur, because the games are too different. If we want to be like CS:GO with a large esports scene and official tournaments, Valve needs to embrace competitive as it is right now. Even if you disagree with the format, even if you like being a friendly hoovy. It has to be done, or the NA comp scene is going to be dead in 2 years, and this game will go nowhere.[/QUOTE] Most of the MYM balance changes were feedback of competitive players like B4nny, and they turned out to be nonsensical.

[QUOTE=geel9;52365199]It's pretty interesting seeing everyone assume that everyone else is terrible at game balance and that Valve should only listen to [i]the right people.[/i] What if you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about?[/QUOTE] I don't know if I'd listen to anyone honestly for balance changes, at least initially if someone says something should be nerfed or buffed, based off suggestions for weapons, both existing and workshop. While some are alright, others are just absurd or potentially game breaking. I think it should just revolve around trial and error and feedback. I know I'm going to get absolutely crucified for saying this, but I think TF2 would benefit from something like Overwatch's PTR for new features or changes.

All this crap won't matter if Valve keeps balancing weapons based on their usage stats; -They nerfed the bison because Mr.Muselk made like 4 videos about it and so most of the kids used it alot before MyM released. -I also remember b4nny (on one of his streams after visiting valve) saying that valve were planning to buff the reserve shooter but he and the others stopped them. the reason behind that was "it had poor usage".

If they revert changes made to Cladiem Mòr(?) and the Bison, I (and probably most of us) will be happy.

The fun, casual side of me wishes that the TF2 team would lock themselves into a room without internet access and brainstorm their own weapon ideas, that way they don't have anyone's bias to go off of and we get some crazy weapon concept to play around with for awhile.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;52365718]Most of the MYM balance changes were feedback of competitive players like B4nny, and they turned out to be nonsensical.[/QUOTE] This is wrongji. B4nny reportedly made some suggestions (like talking them out of buffing the reserve shooter), but for the most part the balance changes were balked at by competitive leagues and the regular playerbase too as being irrational or not enough to solve league bans or issues. If anything, this proves how criminally out of touch valve is with the game and its balance.

[QUOTE=Upgrade;52365703]Well, another bout of E3 press coverage has come and gone. I cannot seem to recall an instance where Valve released a major TF2 update during E3.[/QUOTE] Something tells me that an update for a ten year old game doesn't exactly scream E3 showfloor material. Then again shit like Madden and that new David Cage game can get coverage so maybe I'm just blowing smoke.

are we doing this community elitism thing again where every platform that isnt facepunch is bad and that we should totally give heavy a jetpack with damage immunity either way the Jungle stuff not coming is bad news for mappers, but good news for us. I'm now more interested in if the Balancing Blogpost will still release in all honesty, because if it doesnt come in the next two weeks, we should get worried. -------- Would also hope they are considering an MvM Update eventually, Waterfront looks amazing.

A jet pack huh? Not a bad idea...

So here's a little wager. All in fun because I don't really have anything to offer. Will the update come out [I]Before[/I] or [I]After[/I] I have voted on over 10000 items on the workshop? I'm already at over 8000. Jesus fuck 8000, I need to stop being addicted to the workshop

[QUOTE=Creeps;52365790]If they revert changes made to Cladiem Mòr(?) and the Bison, I (and probably most of us) will be happy.[/QUOTE] I added a buffed version of the original Cladiemwhateveryouspellit on my server. Plans to add Bison soon.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;52365818]Something tells me that an update for a ten year old game doesn't exactly scream E3 showfloor material. Then again shit like Madden and that new David Cage game can get coverage so maybe I'm just blowing smoke.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't have the expectation that Valve would announce a TF2 update at a press conference/booth at E3. But they seem cognizant of the press coverage surrounding E3 and seem to actively avoid releasing a major TF2 update around E3 and other major gaming events.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;52365818]Something tells me that an update for a ten year old game doesn't exactly scream E3 showfloor material. Then again shit like Madden and that new David Cage game can get coverage so maybe I'm just blowing smoke.[/QUOTE] Well there are actually some joker whodevs that release "E3 trailers" despite not being able to afford a booth at E3 and practically not having anything to do with E3 at all, so anything goes.

It's important for the Update to get maximum coverage though, given the fact that they need to clean TF2's name after the collective shit-a-ton by the internet after MyM.